Dave Lloyd on power meters...
Comments
-
Maybe someone should take a poll and see how many people have power meters and
Never race-
Do the occasional time trial-
Race but not all that often-
Race at least twice a week-
Not sure why, but I would bet that people who race once or twice a week buy fewer power meters(per 100 people) than the sometime racers. :? :?0 -
dennisn wrote:Maybe someone should take a poll and see how many people have power meters and
Never race-
Do the occasional time trial-
Race but not all that often-
Race at least twice a week-
Not sure why, but I would bet that people who race once or twice a week buy fewer power meters(per 100 people) than the sometime racers. :? :?
Same goes for carbon bikes, deep section wheels, training camps in sunny climes etc etc. So what?
I thought the discussion was about the effectiveness of training with a power meter. If that's not a debate you want to take part in then fine - but derailing a thread is not going to help.--
Obsessed is just a word elephants use to describe the dedicated. http://markliversedge.blogspot.com0 -
liversedge wrote:dennisn wrote:Maybe someone should take a poll and see how many people have power meters and
Never race-
Do the occasional time trial-
Race but not all that often-
Race at least twice a week-
Not sure why, but I would bet that people who race once or twice a week buy fewer power meters(per 100 people) than the sometime racers. :? :?
Same goes for carbon bikes, deep section wheels, training camps in sunny climes etc etc. So what?
I thought the discussion was about the effectiveness of training with a power meter. If that's not a debate you want to take part in then fine - but derailing a thread is not going to help.
Opps, sorry. Didn't realize you were off your meds this week. :oops: :oops:0 -
I found the post from Robert Tobin, who loaned the power meters in question Dave, very illuminating.
Seems Dave wasn't willing to follow the prescribed training programme as Dave readily admitted he didn't have a clue how to use the power meter. He then totally ignored the programme he was given by doing the sessions way beyond what they were supposed be conducted at. Seems he was a technophobe so didn't understand TSS, NP, etc or even how to download the data into WKO+. No harm in that however it is important to understand that when reading his comments. The problems were related to seized bearing in a powertap and flat batteries in his SRM. Hardly earth shattering equipment failures so again it may help you understand better the context of the article.
Hope I've got that right.
Anyone on Wattage should take a look at his actual post.0 -
To get things back on track the same article is being debated over on the wattage forums: http://groups.google.com/group/wattage/ ... 597a030e57--
Obsessed is just a word elephants use to describe the dedicated. http://markliversedge.blogspot.com0 -
dennisn wrote:Maybe someone should take a poll and see how many people have power meters and
Never race-
Do the occasional time trial-
Race but not all that often-
Race at least twice a week-
Not sure why, but I would bet that people who race once or twice a week buy fewer power meters(per 100 people) than the sometime racers. :? :?
OK I know 4 lads with power meters - one is a first cat racing most weeks, the other is a regular time triallist and cyclo cross racer, one is just starting his first full season and is planning to race most weeks, one is an occasional time triallist. So a bit of everything there.
it's a hard life if you don't weaken.0 -
NapoleonD wrote:I have very limited training time and I find that the powermeter is a great way of ensuring my training time is spent efficiently.
I will be using it in my first race tomorrow and I will see from the data exactly what I need to work on to stop me getting dropped by the first corner in future and where I need to be...
I think its pretty clear that this type of look into what a PM is for regarding the general public/keen enthusiast.
Used correctly it will help as will all other 'tools' to analyse your improvements or weak spots. Shame some people interpret these gadgets as being the bane of the modern day participants when all they are is there to try and help...0 -
NapoleonD wrote:
I will be using it in my first race tomorrow and I will see from the data exactly what I need to work on to stop me getting dropped by the first corner in future and where I need to be...
I can save you the bother of even having to look at the data and let you in on a secret to boot. The only way to be sure you won't get dropped by the first turn is to be the first around the corner. :twisted:0 -
And...which PM pushes you to the front/first corner then? lol...0
-
Garz wrote:NapoleonD wrote:I have very limited training time and I find that the powermeter is a great way of ensuring my training time is spent efficiently.
I will be using it in my first race tomorrow and I will see from the data exactly what I need to work on to stop me getting dropped by the first corner in future and where I need to be...
Shame some people interpret these gadgets as being the bane of the modern day participants when all they are is there to try and help...
Not really true. Those gadgets are there for one reason only. To make money
for the manufacturer. Ford makes cars for you to buy and advertising's job is to convince you that what you're buying is well worth the money and that you can't really be happy or succeed in life without one. A bit of caution is always advised when you're going to shell out big dollars for something promoted as ALMOST too good to be true.0 -
Slow1972 wrote:NapoleonD wrote:I will be using it in my first race tomorrow and I will see from the data exactly what I need to work on to stop me getting dropped by the first corner in future and where I need to be...
It will tell you some of the story. If you get dropped by poor positioning your power meter may say you didnt have enough power to hold a wheel and stay on, but the reality may simply be that better positioning would have got a bunch finish with no power improvements required.
Likewise, when your power meter says you are doing 200W, is that good or bad? With better positioning, rider closer that may have only needed to be 150W. So as with anything else, they contribute to your improvement if used in conjuntion with the grey matter.
Power meters are great training aids, no doubt, as HR monitors are to some extent. The issue with Dave Lloyd as has been mentioned is i) he was one hard b*stard in his prime ii) his school of coaching largely involves the addage "press harder on the pedals" iii) he comes from an era when racers did a lot more riding and were very much more tuned into riding by feel. It's a lost art and HR monitors and power meters have contributed to that loss.
That said, I've been training a bit using power on a turbo this year and I like it, nice and measurable etc.
Getting data from racing is a useful way to adapt your training to what is actually required. There's usually massive discrepencies in between the training riders do and the actual requirements of racing. A friend takes advice off a former star trophy winner, and his addage is "harder, further, faster, more". Does it work? To an extent, but he's not winning star trophies every weekend near enough like the guy who he's taking advice from was. Every rider is different."A cyclist has nothing to lose but his chain"
PTP Runner Up 20150 -
I've never seen any advertising for powertaps, etc.
I came across them for the first time (SRM) when I worked at British Cycling and found out many of the cyclists used them.
More professionals use some sort of power measurement than don't - and it's not ALL down to sponsorship. Coaches and managers believe in them.
Anyone that says 'people won races' before they came along is being naive. No one had them then so someone still had to win.
People also won the Tour on fixed gear bikes. On Steel frames. With 5 speeds. Etc, etc. It's all relative.
If using one can give you an edge - why not take it? If i doesn't help you, then fair enough. It's not for everyone.0 -
Your power output is personal to you, as are Heart Rates, so...improvement can be, Measured, against your past results. BUT, they don't make you a better rider, they only measure etc. Follow the "Principles of Training", and these will ensure progress:
Rest/Recovery, Overload, Test/Measure-see, it is in there! - Progression amongst others.
I don't think anyone here said this wasn't true. Seems that for all your qualifications you just want a fight. I'm sure people would be keen to hear from someone with so much experience but since you find them all such 'sad gits' why do you even bother posting?[/list]0 -
Splottboy wrote:And...which PM pushes you to the front/first corner then? lol...
"On a more general note, I find it odd that on threads like these, you always get someone coming out with the "It won't do your training for you / it won't win races for you" stuff, yet I never actually see anyone claiming anything of the sort in the first instance...."
I'll repeat myself a second time - who exactly are you arguing with?Le Blaireau (1)0 -
Tom Butcher wrote:dennisn wrote:Maybe someone should take a poll and see how many people have power meters and
Never race-
Do the occasional time trial-
Race but not all that often-
Race at least twice a week-
Not sure why, but I would bet that people who race once or twice a week buy fewer power meters(per 100 people) than the sometime racers. :? :?
OK I know 4 lads with power meters - one is a first cat racing most weeks, the other is a regular time triallist and cyclo cross racer, one is just starting his first full season and is planning to race most weeks, one is an occasional time triallist. So a bit of everything there.
I know what you're saying. Seems that the people I know that have them or have had them tend to use them for a while and just don't bother after a year or two. I remember one person telling me that they were "too much for me to deal with".0 -
dennisn wrote:Maybe someone should take a poll and see how many people have power meters and
Never race-
Do the occasional time trial-
Race but not all that often-
Race at least twice a week-
Not sure why, but I would bet that people who race once or twice a week buy fewer power meters(per 100 people) than the sometime racers. :? :?
I never race, and don't have any intention to. But I do want to improve my riding. This winter I've been using my PowerTap to limit my power to ensure that I'm training aerobically and keeping out of my anaerobic system. It seems to be working very nicely. I could not sensibly calibrate that before, especially going up hills.
Although expensive (got the cheapest wireless PT Elite with steel everything
) if I find it hasn't worked, I'll sell it and it still will have been cheaper than renting all winter.
As a geeky type of person, it's really useful to correlate numbers with how you felt on a ride - it's helps calibrate how you feel and get better tuned in.
Even at my meagre level, I feel better able to regulate my efforts, and I know that will do me some good when in the next few weeks I start to add intensity - for the first time, I'll have a solid base.
If you can afford to try out power training and have a scientific mind, just do it!
Back to the Dave Lloyd subject, it sounds like he's a bit of a "one trick pony" and not able to adapt his training methods for people who live in the modern world and may be time poor, and need every "leg up" they can to make the most of their physical abilities.0 -
I've no idea why powermeters arouse such animosity. It is a measurement device, no more, no less. If you trained by heart rate and jumped on it once a month to test yourself it would still be worthwhile. I'm sure experienced people can do zones by feel (I reckon I could have a good go) but being able to feel a 10% gain in power output over several month's training is another kettle of fish entirely.
I suspect the objection is money, but plenty of people will spend thousands on bits that probably won't make them faster (and I mean there is a lack of objective evidence about what bits make bikes go fast, not the "fat people should just lose weight first" argument). They then baulk at adding something to their bike that will actually measure their riding in real time, before regaling you with how they did their 3hr loop in 2 hrs 58 last week and so they must be getting stronger.....
Every time I read something that Dave Lloyd has written it sets my teeth on edge. No doubt he was a great rider and has a lot of experience in the sport but he usually manages to sound arrogant and ignorant.0 -
hazychris wrote:Back to the Dave Lloyd subject, it sounds like he's a bit of a "one trick pony" and not able to adapt his training methods for people who live in the modern world and may be time poor, and need every "leg up" they can to make the most of their physical abilities.
I think it's a shame when someone chooses to be so disrespectful to a rider like Dave Lloyd - somone who even today could probably still ride away from everyone on this forum without even breaking into a sweat - while everyone else is chucking up over their power meters......0 -
softlad wrote:
I think it's a shame when someone chooses to be so disrespectful to a rider like Dave Lloyd - somone who even today could probably still ride away from everyone on this forum without even breaking into a sweat - while everyone else is chucking up over their power meters......
Softlad, absolutely don't doubt that he could cane my ar5e up or down any hill, but his profession is coaching and he seems to be discounting modern training methods that help athletes to get the best result from their effort. If I was paying him good money (bet he's not cheap!) to coach me, I'd want to be sure that he would give me best value for money, and not stick (from the anecdotes I've read) to a "school of hard miles" approach for all under his guidance.
People pay money to coaches to give them the edge - it sounds like his coaching approach is discounting a quite important and effective modern breakthrough. YMMV.0 -
With no disrespect to Dave Lloyd, he chose his parents wisely (and no doubt trained like a demon to make the most of it).softlad wrote:I think it's a shame when someone chooses to be so disrespectful to a rider like Dave Lloyd - somone who even today could probably still ride away from everyone on this forum without even breaking into a sweat - while everyone else is chucking up over their power meters......
The real question is whether he was a great rider because of his style of training, or in spite of it.0 -
Bronzie wrote:The real question is whether he was a great rider because of his style of training, or in spite of it.
The same could be said for any ex-rider who moves into coaching. The question is not really relevant.
Personally, if I wanted coaching, I would probably choose a coach who had been there and done it - as opposed to one who had a degree in computer science.
Dave is entitled to his views on powermeters and does not deserve to be vilified for them - any more than any other coach who feels they are a valid training tool. It doesn't make one right and the other wrong - it just makes them different.0 -
I love power meters, I want my own one day, it gives me a massivly better and more accurate idea of how I am performing and how better/worse I am performing compared to other rides.0
-
softlad wrote:Bronzie wrote:The real question is whether he was a great rider because of his style of training, or in spite of it.
The same could be said for any ex-rider who moves into coaching. The question is not really relevant.
Personally, if I wanted coaching, I would probably choose a coach who had been there and done it - as opposed to one who had a degree in computer science.
Dave is entitled to his views on powermeters and does not deserve to be vilified for them - any more than any other coach who feels they are a valid training tool. It doesn't make one right and the other wrong - it just makes them different.
What a load of old rubbish. He has denegrated a training tool based on his ignorance. That just makes him look stupid. As to relevance what has his history got to do with his ability to properly evaluate a training tool? His article clearly shows he doesn't know how to use power and he blames the device for that. That just makes him look silly. You can slice and dice it whatever way you want. He made the comments not me or anybody else here so don't blame those of us that do use power for rolling our eyes at his remarks.
If he had shown an understanding of how to use power and come to the conclusion that it added nothing to his ability to train effectively then we would all have respected his opinion but that's not what he has done.
Hunter Allen or Chris Carmichael just haven't a clue about racing because neither has never thrown a leg over a bike and raced professionally instead they have spent their entire lives behind a computer screen. How I hate these parralell lives they do make things mighty compicated for dealing with reality
There are coaches that use power and those that don't. Read your last line in your last paragraph and apply that to your second paragraph 0 -
doyler78 wrote:
Hunter Allen or Chris Carmichael just haven't a clue about racing because neither has never thrown a leg over a bike and raced professionally instead they have spent their entire lives behind a computer screen. How I hate these parralell lives they do make things mighty compicated for dealing with reality There are coaches that use power and those that don't. Read your last line in your last paragraph and apply that to your second paragraph
Uh?
Wikipedia: "Carmichael is a former competitive cyclist and member of the U.S. National Cycling Team (1978-1984), competed in the 1984 Summer Olympic Games and was a member of the first 7-Eleven Cycling Team that competed in the 1986 Tour de France."0 -
hazychris wrote:[quote="doyler78"
Hunter Allen or Chris Carmichael just haven't a clue about racing because neither has never thrown a leg over a bike and raced professionally instead they have spent their entire lives behind a computer screen. How I hate these parralell lives they do make things mighty compicated for dealing with reality There are coaches that use power and those that don't. Read your last line in your last paragraph and apply that to your second paragraph
Uh?
Wikipedia: "Carmichael is a former competitive cyclist and member of the U.S. National Cycling Team (1978-1984), competed in the 1984 Summer Olympic Games and was a member of the first 7-Eleven Cycling Team that competed in the 1986 Tour de France."[/quote]
Do I really need to explain it to you :roll:0 -
HazyChris = Irony fail.0
-
-
Who was it posted that the powermeter is good for teaching you not to ride anaerobically ? I would have thought you'd soon find out if you were riding like this - without the need for a powermeter ?
Not used one myself - but I'd think they could be useful tools for serious cyclists who understand them. Not sure what percentage of their users this would be - I know plenty of people with many training gadgets who don't use them properly at all.
Lloydy is a legend and made some beautiful frames. I spent many an hour gazing in at his shop window.0
