Dave Lloyd on power meters...
Infamous
Posts: 1,130
http://www.davelloydcoaching.com/cyclin ... wer-meters
Read this and save yourself thousands of pounds.
Read this and save yourself thousands of pounds.
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Comments
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Ha ha! He may be a good coach, but he's clearly not very clever.More problems but still living....0
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what makes you say that..?0
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Surely the Powertap and the SRM are not that unreliable generally?0
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So after 18 months of testing, he's found the problems most power meter users encounter, and rapidly overcome, in the first two weeks...Le Blaireau (1)0
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DaveyL wrote:So after 18 months of testing, he's found the problems most power meter users encounter, and rapidly overcome, in the first two weeks...
+1. What a tool (Dave LLoyd - not the stuff he was testing!)
Sounds like he just threw his toys out of the pram a few times 'cause he couldn't figure out how to work them correctly!0 -
Think he's on the right track, so to speak!
It doesn't mattter what the machines say, it's the Rider that's the important bit.
( Can't remember a Power Meter ever having won a Medal of any colour.)
Seems the iPod generation are all geared up to lights, wires and spinning/shiny things.
During a race for example, just because your PM say's you're producing amazing outputs, what about the guy/woman who's just passed you, leaving you for dead?
The figures don't mean NUFFIN, as the outcome of the race is the deciding factor...
Whether you put out 1, 100, 1,000, 10,000 watts ISN'T important, your PERFORMANCE is!
Remember the Great Oz, "Don't look behind the curtain!" It the glitz/glamour/flashing stuff that people want to believe in, but half of them won't ride when it's WET!!!
If YOU can't tell that you're getting fitter, faster, lighter, better at riding, and you need a MACHINE to tell you, then I really, truly feel sorry for you..sad gits...0 -
Splottboy wrote:Think he's on the right track, so to speak!
It doesn't mattter what the machines say, it's the Rider that's the important bit.
( Can't remember a Power Meter ever having won a Medal of any colour.)
Seems the iPod generation are all geared up to lights, wires and spinning/shiny things.
During a race for example, just because your PM say's you're producing amazing outputs, what about the guy/woman who's just passed you, leaving you for dead?
The figures don't mean NUFFIN, as the outcome of the race is the deciding factor...
Whether you put out 1, 100, 1,000, 10,000 watts ISN'T important, your PERFORMANCE is!
Remember the Great Oz, "Don't look behind the curtain!" It the glitz/glamour/flashing stuff that people want to believe in, but half of them won't ride when it's WET!!!
If YOU can't tell that you're getting fitter, faster, lighter, better at riding, and you need a MACHINE to tell you, then I really, truly feel sorry for you..sad gits...
Why is it that some people assume that once you start using a power meter you become brain dead and unable to apply common sense to training, as people do when using e.g. HR or RPE.
For example, I wonder if Dave Lloyd applies the brakes when he's training using HR when he can't stay in the zone when going down hill. No, I bet he doesn't cos that'd just be f***ing stupid :roll:
A power meter provides you with additional objective information that can be used to your advantage. Of course if you're an idiot before you buy one then unfortunately you'll still be an idiot even after you buy one (and a little bit poorer).More problems but still living....0 -
A very weak review - despite his saying that he is no stranger to structured training he doesn't seem to have applied any structure to the testing of the products.Splottboy wrote:If YOU can't tell that you're getting fitter, faster, lighter, better at riding, and you need a MACHINE to tell you, then I really, truly feel sorry for you..sad gits...
I take it you don't use a HRM or a bike computer (speedo, etc) either?0 -
If YOU can't tell that you're getting fitter, faster, lighter, better at riding, and you need a MACHINE to tell you, then I really, truly feel sorry for you..sad gits...
Bit harsh that, eh?
Not sure who qualifies for your sad git accoloade, but I think you've misunderstood what these'machines' are for.0 -
Splottboy wrote:Think he's on the right track, so to speak!
It doesn't mattter what the machines say, it's the Rider that's the important bit.
( Can't remember a Power Meter ever having won a Medal of any colour.)
Seems the iPod generation are all geared up to lights, wires and spinning/shiny things.
During a race for example, just because your PM say's you're producing amazing outputs, what about the guy/woman who's just passed you, leaving you for dead?
The figures don't mean NUFFIN, as the outcome of the race is the deciding factor...
Whether you put out 1, 100, 1,000, 10,000 watts ISN'T important, your PERFORMANCE is!
Remember the Great Oz, "Don't look behind the curtain!" It the glitz/glamour/flashing stuff that people want to believe in, but half of them won't ride when it's WET!!!
If YOU can't tell that you're getting fitter, faster, lighter, better at riding, and you need a MACHINE to tell you, then I really, truly feel sorry for you..sad gits...
You are clearly someone who doesn't use power in your training. If you do, you might not be some quick to make such fallacious statements!
No - a powermeter may not help you in a race. A race is an organic thing and you don't have time to check the numbers when someone goes off the front and you have to decide whether to chase or not.
But as a tool, if used correctly, WILL make you a stronger, better, fitter, lighter rider. If adds focus to training that a simple HR monitor cannot.
Probably the reason why a lot of people train with one, but don't race with it.
(I too thought they were silly toys - until I tried one and it greatly improved my training is a way that I couldn't have done without one.) And for some reason, my national team coaches all swear by using power to train with. Go figure.0 -
Splottboy wrote:Think he's on the right track, so to speak!
It doesn't mattter what the machines say, it's the Rider that's the important bit.
( Can't remember a Power Meter ever having won a Medal of any colour.)
Seems the iPod generation are all geared up to lights, wires and spinning/shiny things.
During a race for example, just because your PM say's you're producing amazing outputs, what about the guy/woman who's just passed you, leaving you for dead?
The figures don't mean NUFFIN, as the outcome of the race is the deciding factor...
Whether you put out 1, 100, 1,000, 10,000 watts ISN'T important, your PERFORMANCE is!
Remember the Great Oz, "Don't look behind the curtain!" It the glitz/glamour/flashing stuff that people want to believe in, but half of them won't ride when it's WET!!!
If YOU can't tell that you're getting fitter, faster, lighter, better at riding, and you need a MACHINE to tell you, then I really, truly feel sorry for you..sad gits...
Sh*t, i better call Derek and cancel my Powertap wheelbuild. Thank you Splotty0 -
I do think he has some pretty valid points to be honest, one being the time need to interperate the data. For amatuers who have a limited amount of total time, it something that everyone needs to way up, do you gain more from the analysis or more from using that time to do more exercise?
But I think his problem is that he has a very good idea of how he wants to train and so should have tried to fit that in with measuring power. Instead he has taken someone elses plans, thay by the sound of it are the problem not the meters themselves (reliability appart).0 -
Maybe this argument, or should I say debate, is not really about power meters, but more about who has bought one and who hasn't. Anyone buying pretty much anything will, more than likely, not take kindly to someone saying "It's a useless piece of junk" or something along those lines. If you tell someone that you don't think that the new Campy mega dollar wheels, they just bought, are that good you're going to get a denial(or a punch in the face). Doesn't matter if they are or aren't any good, if I bought them then I know what I'm doing and obviously for 3000 dollars these must be good. Almost sort of a have and have not kind of thing. I have one therefore it is good. I don't have one therefore they are junk. Notice I said "almost sort of...".
As for me I'm sort of a believer in the old saying "Nothing is as good as the brochure or
advertisement".
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Does DL mention at any point how good he is/was?"A cyclist has nothing to lose but his chain"
PTP Runner Up 20150 -
Does DL mention at any point how good he is/was?
He does usually, but in fairness to the guy he was very very good!0 -
I rented one to try out. Found my training improved greatly... so bought one (and got it quite cheap).
Doesn't take long at all to understand the basic numbers and how to use them. Seems daunting at first because it CAN provide a lot of info - most of which you don't need.
Learn to ignore it and focus on a few key figures and you're golden. Not much different than looking at a regular speedo/hr monitor to be honest.0 -
Spot on.eh wrote:I do think he has some pretty valid points to be honest, one being the time need to interperate the data. For amatuers who have a limited amount of total time, it something that everyone needs to way up, do you gain more from the analysis or more from using that time to do more exercise?
If you don't really know what you are doing with a powermeter, you'll get nothing much out of it. Not that I claim to be particularly wise in this respect, but I agree that the amount of background reading that goes with it can seem overwhelming to start with.
Fact is, training by/with power is not for everyone. I think it was Bahzob who nicely summed it up with "are you a scientist or artist by temperament". Some of us (me included) like to analyse things down to the nth degree, others are quite happy with the broader picture. One of the best local riders (an Elite and Premier Calendar Winner) still trains mostly by feel and sometimes HR. Would he better off training with a PM? Maybe, but he's decided it's not for him.0 -
Sadly I think you could find/replace "power meter" for "heart rate monitor" in his review and come up with a similar story - its difficult to stay in a predefined zone over a real-world course, it takes a little time to get used to looking at the screen (how often and whether I can see it standing) and some units arent as robust as they could be for the money.
His conclusion that power meters are bad and heart rate is good is hard to reach from his "issues". And, as others have said, he's missed any point of whether power is an effective tool to assist his training.
He is fairly old-school though - a couple of guys I at work are coached by him and its more on the "motivation and miles" style training than "metrics and intervals". Its obviuosly worked for him and a number of his athletes, but other styles - more metric based - have obviously worked for others
(I aint got a power meter btw)
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dennisn wrote:Maybe this argument, or should I say debate, is not really about power meters, but more about who has bought one and who hasn't.
I rent one, now I'm confused - should I be pro or anti?
My issue with the review (from a guy who was very, very good) is that he's written from the PoV of a week-old user of the technology - everyone works out within the first few days that you don't train by staring at the power output for every pedal stroke but use the interval settings and go by average values, setting a new interval at the bottom of the hill, another at the top of the hill, etc. His review suggests he never got beyond this stage - I'm sure he did really, but he doesn't cover this, which is why I think it is such a poor review.0 -
I only use power on the turbo and find it really helps me ride the sessions I want to at the right effort. I don't need to analyse the results.
For instance, riding a 4min interval at threshold it's easy to really overcook it in the first 30-40 secs trying to get your pulse up then die over the last minute or so because you've overdone it. Knowing to target power I now realise how easy that feels over the first minute and how hard the same power is over the last minute.
I now complete all my sessions whereas before it was easy to feel you're having an off day because your pulse is low so pack it in. Also you can really compare sessions whereas I used to compare heart rates which really were only an indication of how tired/ill/unmotivated I was.0 -
cookiemonster wrote:
He is fairly old-school though - a couple of guys I at work are coached by him and its more on the "motivation and miles" style training than "metrics and intervals". Its obviuosly worked for him and a number of his athletes, but other styles - more metric based - have obviously worked for others
Does his style of training work for your friends out of interest?
He coaches a lad I occaisonally ride with. Had him riding 12hour TTs at 15/16. Not the best approach if you ask me."A cyclist has nothing to lose but his chain"
PTP Runner Up 20150 -
there's no question that Dave Lloyd comes from the 'hard bstard' school of cycling and there's a lot to be said for it historically. Although I wouldn't label myself as such, most of the people I have ridden with over the years have taken that approach, some with considerable success..
It does make you wonder how anyone ever managed to win anything before power meters and HRMs were invented....0 -
ShockedSoShocked wrote:cookiemonster wrote:
He is fairly old-school though - a couple of guys I at work are coached by him and its more on the "motivation and miles" style training than "metrics and intervals". Its obviuosly worked for him and a number of his athletes, but other styles - more metric based - have obviously worked for others
Does his style of training work for your friends out of interest?
On balance, yes, i'd say it does. However what my colleague primarly wants from a coach is motivation and structure - Dave Lloyd definetely provides that, so he's happy.0 -
Splottboy wrote:If YOU can't tell that you're getting fitter, faster, lighter, better at riding, and you need a MACHINE to tell you, then I really, truly feel sorry for you..sad gits...
How much better? What training gave the best results, quantitively? When I do a 2x20 how hard can I go and still complete the workout? What are the demands of a particular course and how can I simulate that in training? How is my sprinting performance being affected by my increased endurance?
If you want to answer those questions with more than guess work then a power meter is just about the only tool that will do that with a degree of accuracy.
if you're not interested in the answers then just ride around and hope for the best.--
Obsessed is just a word elephants use to describe the dedicated. http://markliversedge.blogspot.com0 -
I have very limited training time and I find that the powermeter is a great way of ensuring my training time is spent efficiently.
I will be using it in my first race tomorrow and I will see from the data exactly what I need to work on to stop me getting dropped by the first corner in future and where I need to be...0 -
Think you're missing the point;
PM, HRMs are all to be used as well as Structured training...NOT INSTEAD OF.
Same goes for buying a 17lb bike for a 17st rider, it MAY make you faster, but not likely!
I'm not saying kit is NOT great, God knows I watch the Gadget Show, LOL!
But for many it becomes the ONLY thing to focus on.
Having been training since 1972, been Asst National Coach, Tutor/Assessor, National Head Coach, Regional Cycling Development Officer, SD/PTI to City of London Police, think I've seen nearly all the gizmos available.
I've seen people get onto a static bike, and their pulse doubles, without even pedalling!
I've seen U23 National level riders get poor Power outputs, but race well and kick butt.
Your power output is personal to you, as are Heart Rates, so...improvement can be, Measured, against your past results. BUT, they don't make you a better rider, they only measure etc. Follow the "Principles of Training", and these will ensure progress:
Rest/Recovery, Overload, Test/Measure-see, it is in there! - Progression amongst others.
So, just use them as a "Tool", but don't get too stressed out about the figures it measures, thats all...0 -
So, who exactly are you arguing against here?Le Blaireau (1)0
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NapoleonD wrote:I will be using it in my first race tomorrow and I will see from the data exactly what I need to work on to stop me getting dropped by the first corner in future and where I need to be...
It will tell you some of the story. If you get dropped by poor positioning your power meter may say you didnt have enough power to hold a wheel and stay on, but the reality may simply be that better positioning would have got a bunch finish with no power improvements required.
Likewise, when your power meter says you are doing 200W, is that good or bad? With better positioning, rider closer that may have only needed to be 150W. So as with anything else, they contribute to your improvement if used in conjuntion with the grey matter.
Power meters are great training aids, no doubt, as HR monitors are to some extent. The issue with Dave Lloyd as has been mentioned is i) he was one hard b*stard in his prime ii) his school of coaching largely involves the addage "press harder on the pedals" iii) he comes from an era when racers did a lot more riding and were very much more tuned into riding by feel. It's a lost art and HR monitors and power meters have contributed to that loss.
That said, I've been training a bit using power on a turbo this year and I like it, nice and measurable etc.0 -
I have a PowerTap for my road bike and TT bike. Don't have one for my mountain bike though. Oddly enough, when I went MTB--ing the other week, I wasn't at a loss for what to do, and I was able to ride hard on the climbs but not too much that I'd blow up.
And actually, to play Devil's Advocate for a minute, I would bet that quite a few experienced power meter users are pretty well tuned in to RPE, or "feel", in relation to power. At first the gaps are pretty big, so you get to know what 200 W feels like, vs 250 W, for example, but you soon dial it in. I would wager some really experienced power meter users are pretty damn well calibrated to +/- 10-20 Watts. I would say that's a pretty good combination of "feel" and power.
On a more general note, I find it odd that on threads like these, you always get someone coming out with the "It won't do your training for you / it won't win races for you" stuff, yet I never actually see anyone claiming anything of the sort in the first instance....Le Blaireau (1)0
