Rare, horrible incident caught on vid (not me)..

starseven

Wow this is still going on....

Magnatom you should be more careful, you appear to be an accident magnet and much as I admire your crusade to highlight careless drivers it may actually put off new cyclists and possibly cost you your life.

Really wouldnt you rather just get from a to b without a drama? we all have to compromise from time to time.

starseven

Wow this is still going on....

Magnatom you should be more careful, you appear to be an accident magnet and much as I admire your crusade to highlight careless drivers it may actually put off new cyclists and possibly cost you your life.

Really wouldnt you rather just get from a to b without a drama? we all have to compromise from time to time.

acidstrato

its my opinion that you entered the roundabout appropriately and just as I would have, now only you know what was happening at the time and it was your judgement call. for me, and I did do this roughly 4hrs ago when i was riding home from work, once you had passed the 2nd exit you should have pulled over to the left ready to take your exit which was the 3rd I think? just as anyone would in a car and by now you should be indicating. However before you could pull left, the lorry was beside you. end of story.

theres only 2 logical choices, you either pull out infront of the lorry, or youslow down and let him go before you. theres no need for stopping everytime you spot a car but in this instance those are really your only choices. I dont think I'm an expert on a bike, but I've enough common sense and I do actually ride to work when I want to. Interestingly enough, heres a quote from one of the video descriptions off gaz545 's youtube full of videos about bad judgement calls


"It could have been avoided by the cyclist if he rode in primary position and held the lane so no cars could get past, just as i was doing. but that doesn't condone the bad overtake"

its easy to analyse the evidence now but in the short space of time when it happened its tough to make the right call, it could have gone wrong another way. just a near miss. wont be the last

roger_merriman

Ooh that was close, very much the HGV's.

Not much more to say really.

chuckcork

magnatom wrote:

Right guys. I get the message. cycle around the roundabout, stopping at each entrance to ask permission to proceed from the drivers entering. :roll:

There are so many bl**dy armchair cyclists who would have done this and that so much better than me, that it is a wonder that any drivers have any problems with any cyclists ever. It just reminds me of the statistic relating to how many drivers think they are above average....

Is that the same as the number of bankers who expect to get an above average bonus on top of their well above average pay?

Anyway, you're wrong about stopping to ask permission from drivers. I think its more get off your bike and beg their foregiveness for being so crass as to cycle on THEIR road while tugging your forelock and begging their indulgence so as to let you proceed.

And how does one become an armchair cyclist? :?: Is it hand cranked or a recumbent style?

I see a nice line of mid-aged spread cyclists on their leather recumbent cycles (with footstool) in my mind, off to do a comfortable brevet around the Surrey Hills...I think this Sake I'm drinking is messing with my mind!

downfader

acidstrato wrote:

its my opinion that you entered the roundabout appropriately and just as I would have, now only you know what was happening at the time and it was your judgement call. for me, and I did do this roughly 4hrs ago when i was riding home from work, once you had passed the 2nd exit you should have pulled over to the left ready to take your exit which was the 3rd I think? just as anyone would in a car and by now you should be indicating. However before you could pull left, the lorry was beside you. end of story.

theres only 2 logical choices, you either pull out infront of the lorry, or youslow down and let him go before you. theres no need for stopping everytime you spot a car but in this instance those are really your only choices. I dont think I'm an expert on a bike, but I've enough common sense and I do actually ride to work when I want to. Interestingly enough, heres a quote from one of the video descriptions off gaz545 's youtube full of videos about bad judgement calls


"It could have been avoided by the cyclist if he rode in primary position and held the lane so no cars could get past, just as i was doing. but that doesn't condone the bad overtake"

its easy to analyse the evidence now but in the short space of time when it happened its tough to make the right call, it could have gone wrong another way. just a near miss. wont be the last

You STILL havent seemed to have taken note of the fact that it was a SINGLE lane RAB, there is no left, no right.. you take primary there for your own visibility.

And no, those are not logical choices. If you faulter it allows others to slip in and make things even less safe. Quoting Gaz seems to prove your opinion wrong imo as Mags did take primary, it was the braking that put him off kilter. And you're right, it wont be the last as your view seems to excuse that of the behaviour of the driver imo. :roll:

As I said before I think we all need to stand together on this, victim blaming will only make things worse for us in situations like this one.

magnatom

chuckcork wrote:

Is that the same as the number of bankers who expect to get an above average bonus on top of their well above average pay?

Anyway, you're wrong about stopping to ask permission from drivers. I think its more get off your bike and beg their foregiveness for being so crass as to cycle on THEIR road while tugging your forelock and begging their indulgence so as to let you proceed.

And how does one become an armchair cyclist? :?: Is it hand cranked or a recumbent style?

I see a nice line of mid-aged spread cyclists on their leather recumbent cycles (with footstool) in my mind, off to do a comfortable brevet around the Surrey Hills...I think this Sake I'm drinking is messing with my mind!

Alinshearah

Apparently this how we are meant to do it........ apparently?!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A61403690

Stone Glider

I read today that the BBC is to reduce the size of its website. It can start with that load of tosh. Out of date and out of sympathy with current best practice is the kindest one can say.

The worst thing about the OP's experience is that he did everything right! That must offend the resident jury of second guesers and know-alls but true. He did nothing wrong, otherwise he would have been dead. Chapeau Tom.

tailwindhome

Eau Rouge wrote:

There has to be a limit to how far you go in giving up your right of way to protect yourself, or you'd end up stopping the bike every time a car approached you, which would be madness. You should expect drivers to be muppets, but you still need to trust them to some degree or you'd never ride (or drive or walk) anywhere.
Watching the video, Magnatom is long on the roundabout before the truck ever gets to it. If he was further back then you might anticipate the truck cutting him up, but not from where they both were. Anyway, Magnatom did stay aware of the truck, did react to him driving that badly and did stop in time to prevent an accident, which kinda renders the whole argument mute. He wasn't in a silly place on the road, nor doing anything silly, nor unaware of the dangers around him. There was nothing else he could reasonably have done, or would you have cyclists stop on roundabouts to let vehicles enter it in front of them in contravention of the rules of the road? Of course you wouldn't.

Yep

Though the argument is moot not mute.

antfly

What he had was a near miss that was avoidable with better anticipation and more defensive cycling, the blame on the lorry driver isn`t in debate.

acidstrato

downfader wrote:

You STILL havent seemed to have taken note of the fact that it was a SINGLE lane RAB, there is no left, no right.. you take primary there for your own visibility.

And no, those are not logical choices. If you faulter it allows others to slip in and make things even less safe. Quoting Gaz seems to prove your opinion wrong imo as Mags did take primary, it was the braking that put him off kilter. And you're right, it wont be the last as your view seems to excuse that of the behaviour of the driver imo. :roll:

As I said before I think we all need to stand together on this, victim blaming will only make things worse for us in situations like this one.

one lane or two the lorry driver decided there was space to come up the outside, everyone knows it was a bad call, but riding on the inside of the roundabout near to the edge of the road is not primary. if you think it was the braking that moved him over fine, i say it wasnt. our views mean diddly.

however I resent that point about making excuses for the driver, just because I'm not bias to the cyclist on this occasion? not like i was bias to the otherside. I wasnt even victim blaming. Just seeing how that situation could potentially have been avoided. the driver was well out of order for how close he got and the speed he seemed to carry, and thats where it became more than an error of judgment, they obviously werent bothered about where the rider ended up. I'm more than happy to scream at drivers when I feel they've wronged me.

I just prefer to look at both sides, after all, I don't know 'mags' from adam. He could be the type of rider that pushes their nans down stairs :twisted:

so to summarise, careless driver, situation avoidable...if you care to argue that too then you win as I'm going to bed

dilemna

:shock: :shock:

Has Magnatom actually shown his film to the police yet? What are they going to do about the driver?

Perhaps the driver was French as In France you give way to traffic merging from the left when on a roundabout so he probably thought he had ROW. Just a thought.

Glad you survived to share the tale. It could so easily have been very different.
Did you cross yourself after? I bet you are still shaking like a leaf. I am just seeing your film. A very close shave indeed.

roger_merriman

dilemna wrote:

:shock: :shock:

Has Magnatom actually shown his film to the police yet? What are they going to do about the driver?

Perhaps the driver was French as In France you give way to traffic merging from the left when on a roundabout so he probably thought he had ROW. Just a thought.

Glad you survived to share the tale. It could so easily have been very different.
Did you cross yourself after? I bet you are still shaking like a leaf. I am just seeing your film. A very close shave indeed.

as terrifying as that video is, I'm not sure that the police would do much if only because from the video you don't see what the lorry did before.

cee

OldSkoolKona wrote:

cee wrote:

I do think its a dangerous game to start putting the responsibility onto the victim, in this case magnatom.

in other news...women who dress in sexy outfits for a night and are attacked shouldve worn a dufflecoat, or to quote the chap above...take some responsibility for the attack if it happens! no way

ok, extreme example but its the same victim blaming game. ridiculous.
:evil:

But on the flip side, would you walk around certain areas of London (or any major city) after dark with an expensive camera around your neck and other expensive items on show? Its your right, you're not doing anything wrong, but would you do it?

Taking sensible precautions doesn't amount to the same as blaming the victim.

sure...you take precautions....as in hide your camera....or as magnatom did...slow down a bit, anticipate the truck and was able to stop in time (just!)....

but if i walked around certain areas of London (I actually reckon certain areas of the glasgow schemes would be far scarier) with a camera, and had taken appropriate precautions and was still attacked, how is that my responsibility?

I feel yours is a bad example, becasue it suggest that the chap didn't take precautions which he obviously did (he posted the video after all)

holybinch

blorg wrote:

holybinch wrote:

Antfly: following that you'd never go anywhere.

Eh, no, you just take a little extra care in circumstances where you know from experience that drivers often don't respect your right of way. This does not equate to stopping at every junction, etc. etc. but just being ready to if necessary.

That's because you have to assume that the other drivers will follow the rules, and not kill you.

That is a very foolish thing to assume and is not an outlook compatible with your long term survival. I can only imagine you don't cycle much if you honestly assume that. I see other road users breaking the law on a daily basis.

I hear what you're saying. I think he proceeded with caution, which is why he's still alive.
I'm not advocating bombing down the road with no care for others. But some people say he could have done otherwise, and that's where I don't agree.
He's done well, ie: he's still alive, despite a son of a b**ch trying to kill him.
I'm just saying get off his case, and stop trying to find a fault in the victim's behaviour.

As he said, had the truck not been on the roundabout, or had respected the law, and Tom had posted the same video, no one would have found any fault to his riding...

Edit: and as for me cycling: I learnt in Paris in the 80s, I can tell you that London drivers are way more kind...

Peasoup

Just watched the vid. Magnatom, you were lucky, glad you're ok.

[quote="roger merriman
as terrifying as that video is, I'm not sure that the police would do much if only because from the video you don't see what the lorry did before.[/quote]

If it came to it, tachograph analysis could be used to identify how the driver had been driving before/after the incident (certainly with regard to speed etc.).

Frankly, anyone driving a HGV in that manner should be prosecuted. The speed carried by the vehicle into the roundbout and the lack of observation was wholly inappropraite for any HGV, but especially so for a tanker. Artic tanker drivers carry an especially large responsibility due to the nature of their vehicles - the combination of tankers and roundabouts is a major cause of HGV rollover, even at surprisingly low speeds. any tanker driver will (or damn well should) know this and should certainly not have been attempting to navigate a small roundabout in the manner shown.

Fortunately the reg plate is quite clear so the vehile and driver should be easily traced.

shocking.

pottssteve

Oddly, incidents similar to this happen to me on a regular basis riding here in Hong Kong. My commute involves a road which has a lot of lorry and bus traffic and in the last year I'd say I've had 4 or 5 incidents like that. A colleague who rides the same route says the same; vehicles pulling out of side roads, entering roundabouts when you have right of way etc. Even so, watching someone else still makes my legs wobbly! I'll be a bit extra careful on the way home tonight...

always_tyred

This was road rage. Plain and simple.

I think those who state helpfully that "this doesn't happen to me" are missing the point rather. If the videographer is prone to such incidents, my hunch is that the guy induces incidents to the extent of cycling reasonably and not getting out of the way of impending incidents.

So, to say its his fault is to say that by not doing everything humanly possible to avoid others' shortcomings is backward logic.

Its an odd choice that I wouldn't recommend, but he's not actually doing anything wrong, the driver(s) is/are.

The cycling in that particular video is pretty much perfect and I think he did extremely well to avoid an accident.

HebdenBiker

MagnaTom, in this bike commuter's opinion your cycling was both lawful and sensible and you were the victim of a very bad driver. HGV drivers like to preserve momentum to save time and diesel, and that's what I think the offender did here. I hope the cops throw the book at him, but I doubt they will be in the slightest bit arsed, unfortunately.

I know you won't agree with me here but I think that in some of your videos a little more give and take with drivers would save you a lot of the grief you seem to encounter. I do think you use the primary position too much. Yes, yes I know what it says in Cyclecraft, but in real on-road situations not every point in the goverment publications can be applied 100% of the time. Sometimes it makes more sense to move over and wave someone through. Not because you're giving in to bullying motorists but just because it's courteous road use.

I commute 90 urban miles a week and <touch wood> I never experience any of the incidents you seem to attract.

Anyway I'm glad you're OK and thanks for uploading the vid of your scary experience.

nation

I know that roundabout. From the entrance that the HGV used you can't look across to the previous entrance until you're almost at the give way line, your view is blocked. The only way to check if it's actually clear is to come almost to a standstill, which the GV obviously didn't do.

Interestingly, if the OP had been in a car that would have been a hell of a smash.

attica

HebdenBiker wrote:

MagnaTom, in this bike commuter's opinion your cycling was both lawful and sensible and you were the victim of a very bad driver. HGV drivers like to preserve momentum to save time and diesel, and that's what I think the offender did here. I hope the cops throw the book at him, but I doubt they will be in the slightest bit arsed, unfortunately.

I know you won't agree with me here but I think that in some of your videos a little more give and take with drivers would save you a lot of the grief you seem to encounter. I do think you use the primary position too much. Yes, yes I know what it says in Cyclecraft, but in real on-road situations not every point in the goverment publications can be applied 100% of the time. Sometimes it makes more sense to move over and wave someone through. Not because you're giving in to bullying motorists but just because it's courteous road use.

I commute 90 urban miles a week and <touch wood> I never experience any of the incidents you seem to attract.

Anyway I'm glad you're OK and thanks for uploading the vid of your scary experience.

Having followed this thread without previous knowledge of Magnatom and his videos and I have to say that I think that this is possibly the most balanced view expressed yet. Good post Hebden

gb155

Just seen this and I "yelped" SCARY