Useless Police!!!

Thewaylander

To be hoenst i wish i was, cos if they provided such a crap service i wouldn't pay them Llama

And Simon, your taking the extreme point here, I wouldn't let a crime pass by, but there are a lot of community schems and so going itno place the police are envolved in and i wouldn't go near them now.

26 to Life

Simon - Not sure I agree with "Just as bad". It's the distinction between active and passive involvement, itn't it.

Waylander, I would hope the reasons you would cooperate with the police would be twofold - Because it is the morally right thing to do, and because you would hope that if you were the person the police were assisting, other people would help out too.

Comparing them with a commercial company is not fair at all - The police aren't a business. Every time they are appealing for help, it is as a direct result of their function which is combatting crime, not making profits.

Speed cameras, on the other hand...

HebdenBiker

ExeterSimon wrote:

If you stand by and do nothing you're just as bad as the person comitting the crime.

That's what the police did to the OPer.

Porgy

ExeterSimon wrote:

I've never had a bad experience with coppers...I've found any I've had dealings with to be polite and responsive.

I've never had a good one.

The balance of the universe is restored.

huskyboy64

As to ownership. It ALWAYS reverts to the original owner, irrespective of weather the buyer new it was stolen or not. There is no 50/50 civil stuff, it's written in law, as confirmed to me by Taunton Police.

Porgy

huskyboy64 wrote:

as confirmed to me by Taunton Police.

ha - the highest legal authority in the land.






No - but seriously - i agree with you.

UncleMonty

huskyboy64 wrote:

As to ownership. It ALWAYS reverts to the original owner, irrespective of weather the buyer new it was stolen or not. There is no 50/50 civil stuff, it's written in law, as confirmed to me by Taunton Police.

Tis true, my Boss had his car stolen a few months back, Insurance paid him out but it was then found - by now ownership had passed to the insurance company, the guy who bought it had to buy it a 2nd time from the insurer, he must have been pissed and made of money.

Daz555

Bregante wrote:

If the person who bought the bike from ebay - proved that that is how he bought it, the legal position here is a difficult one. The bike (or whatever) becomes subject of a civil procedure known as interpleader and the Police are unable to just "seize it" in these circumstances. To do so would be a breach of the law.

That is not true. An old friend of mine had his camper siezed on the day when it was discovered to be stolen during a campaign to target campsites for stolen vans, caravans and motorhomes.

They took it there and then. He had to hire a transit the same day to drive his stuff home and cancel his holiday. His solicitor confirmed over the phone that they were entitled to do this. The camper was a right shed but he was still gutted.

After a quick Google - I could understand the "Interpleader" process having some involvement if there were dispute over ownership but this is not the case with typical stolen goods.

Thewaylander

And i don't think its unfair. to compare tehm to commercial services.

If i pay for a service expect a level of service and competency, with an certain attitude, well i pay for the police in my taxes but on this i ahve no comme back there general attitude in the gwent area is pathetic. I would employ an alternative service that provided a better attitude.

slimboyjim

As a serving police officer it saddens me to hear of the negativity out there today. Believe it or not there are those of us out there trying to do a good job. We find it equally frustrating that we are prevented from providing an effective service due to targets, paperwork and human rights. However, it is a necessity with the current legal system due to past abuses (think Gene Hunt policing pre-80's which, while fun to watch on tv, sadly led in real life to innocent people being imprisoned for crimes they didn't commit) and incidents such as the Victoria Climbie Enquiry (a young girl who died of abuse following a number of visits from Social Services and the police). Funnily enough it's not as simple as just changing the way we work although improvements are going through - in the West Mids for example we are now working to a single target of public confidence which is putting the focus back on doing the right thing that makes the public happy rather than chase figures...

Furthermore, like any job there are those who are good and bad at it. Please do not tar everyone with the same brush. Personally I go the extra mile with bikes as I understand what a loss it is to people...

Finally, to all those who detest the police there is quite a famous 'unofficial' test applied by officers called the attitude test - we are far more likely to waste your time if you give us attitude since, funnily enough, criminals tend to give us attitude. This may (or may not) explain why some of you have had negative experiences. Right or wrong it is human nature and somethng to be aware of... However, I hope this thread isn't just overtaken by police-bashing...

Now, back to the OP - personally I would have seized the bike under PACE, suspecting it of being stolen goods DEPENDING on the quality of description passed. If it was the OP's bike it would be returned to him/his insurance company. However, I will stop short of saying the officer acted incorrectly as we only have one side of the story. What I would say is that this is worth making a complaint about in order that the matter is investigated by a supervisor - it would appear that the OP did give enough of an id for there to be reasonable grounds to suspect the bike was stolen (the test applied by an officer whether seizure is appropriate). A serial nuumber would be important to the officer though as many do not know about bikes worth more than a Halfords special :-(

The general test to see if the new 'owner' is guilty of handing is how much did he pay for the bike - 50quid for a good condition bike worth a grand is going to ring alarm bells! If he's paid 800quid it's harder to prove but still loses the bike... It is hard to say if an arrest was appropriate without more detail.

I hope that this provides another side of the coin for our more moderate readers. I'll check back later as I'm in hospital after having a bit of an off on the Cannock Chase red (DH) run yesterday! I'm ok, but ugly as **** :-)


James

slimboyjim

Oh, and it's well dodgy the bike happened to go missing after...

bails87

26 to Life wrote:

Speed cameras, on the other hand...

.....catch and punish criminals. :roll:

Iwingstein

clodhoppa74 wrote:

passout wrote:

heffordvtr wrote:

they have to chase certain figures and results, in each constabulary.

Exactly. So how difficult would it have been to send a copper round, get the bike, return it and two constabularies could have said case solved.

It's not rocket science.

HebdenBiker

slimboyjim wrote:

we are far more likely to waste your time if you give us attitude

Jesus. Are you serious?

Right or wrong

wrong

it is human nature

no it is an abuse of power

So if a member of the public does not show the appropriate level of "deference" to a police officer then they're in for a hard time? You and your mates would do well to remember that you are supposed to be the servants of the people, and not the other way round.

slimboyjim

Hebdenbiker,

Nor is it correct for people to abuse us just for doing our job (note that there has to be a reason for the police to stop someone)?

I'm not talking about a random person who is upset, makes the odd sarcastic comment or has called the police in genuine need - this is someone who goes out of their way to insult you or cause you difficulty. There is a BIG difference and I always treat people fairly and civilly, as do the officers I work with. However, if we are met with incivility as a result we are obviously going to deal with them differntly, and are often more likely to do extra checks on you to find out what sort of person you are because you are coming across as 'trouble' - Please don't take this that we go around randomly abusing people as this is NOT the case....

I don't see why it is so surprising that I will have a different way of talking to people who abuse me than those who don't? Obviously you are always nice to people who are abusing you? Can you say that, in the course of your own work, you treat both the person who is being decent with you and the one who is shouting abuse at you EXACTLY the same? If you're honest I think you can accept that there is a difference...

Don't forget that, especially in an inner-city area such as the one I work, there is also a time and a place to ignore such matters and a time to not. For example, letting a kid get away with playing up in front of his mates erodes our authority when, to take them back to their parents to 'waste their time' and so that their parents can deal with them can only ever be a win-win situation IMHO. The alternative is them thinking they've got away with it and potentially encourage them in the future where they may push the limit further.

Oh, and I'm talking stop checks here, not anything else. I hope that you now maybe understand what I was getting at in my original post...

I always think the job would have far fewer critics if people could do it and truly understand the inherent difficulties. Same with the armed forces and ambulance for that matter...

James

tlw1

slimboyjim - nice to hear the other side. The problem you have got is so many people have got negative experiencces, that you are swimming against a big tide!

So - how did you crash? At Cannocck on sat, so want to learn from your mistake!

HebdenBiker

Fair enough James, but it's not just a case of taking cheeky kids home to their parents, is it? How about abuses of anti-terrorism powers to harrass and detain lawful demonstrators, tourists and photographers? You say you have to have a reason to stop someone going about their business. It seems to me that a police officer will find a reason if they want to. The way the police use their powers is highly political and I believe that many police officers hold a pretty uniformly reactionary world view and that they enforce this view through their work.

However, as someone else has written on this thread, the police must be doing something right as there is not anarchy in the streets. I have no doubt that policing is a hard job and that, to police officers, it must seem like they are trying to hold back a constant barrage of general badness. For your service in this regard, I thank you. Genuinely, I mean it.

Unfortunately, my own experiences of the police have been negative. And I am not a criminal, nor have I ever been disrespectful to anyone, police officer or not. It's just that on the odd occasions that me or my family have been victims of crime, the police have done sod all. They did not arrest the man who exposed his penis to my wife, even though he was standing there. They did not investigate the theft of my wallet, even though I had CCTV evidence identifying the criminal. They just didn't care. And an awful lot of people have had similarly bad experiences.

slimboyjim

Matthew - I noticed! The only thing I'd say is it is an excellent job and I take pride in the work I do. Whilst you cannot please everyone you get great satisfaction from helping those in need. Whilst some would like to criticise me/my colleagues I therefore take it lightly - If they knew me or dealt with me I believe I'd change their minds. If they want to accuse me of treating people unfairly I'll just point out that it was me that gave mouth to mouth to a dead heroin addict in front of 10-15 family members for around 10minutes a few years back (unsuccessfully unfortunately) - the last person you want due to the higher probability of communical disease. I've assisted in the conviction of a paedophile by interviewing the victim. You never get thanks for 99 percent of the good work and some of it is pretty harrowing you do but we accept this. You get the good jobs too (like when a chap tried to jump out of a (slowly I'd add - no injury) car he shouldn't have had only for the door to hit a bollard, closing on his leg and trapping him). You just have to appraise the situation on what you find and deal with it the best you can...

Anyway, crash was going over a 2ft drop. Manualled it a bit high I think? Anyway, landed only for my front wheel to come out, fork to dig in and throw me over the front. Padded up on arms and legs but only a standard helmet (not full face - I'm only a trails rider really). Therefore I landed on my face... Couple of lads there helped me put my bike back together and rode back to car (thanks if you read this!), went to main centre and ambo called from there (thanks to ranger for looking after bike/car). Went to Stafford, then transferred to Selly Oak as they are plastic surgery experts. Luckily nothing broken but chipped tooth, 1.5cm hole straight through upper lip and massive gouge on inside of lower lip with a couple of other assorted cuts. Had them scrubbed out under general anaesthetic this morning. Sat on a bed all day since looking like a spitting image character my lips are so swollen. Luckily I think I'll come out of it with just a couple of minor facial scars... Can just about eat if I tear everything up tiny... I have no tv but do have internet access - have been researching full face helmets! Not much else to do, hence long replies although, writing them on a touch screen takes AGES. :shock:

No idea why wheel came out but moral of story is check it's tight enough and don't let anyone else touch your bike (being nice I had...)

I'll be going back when I'm better though - can't be scarier than facing off against a crowd of approximately 3000 Blue's fans after the pitch invasion at the end of last year (there was only about 40 of us)!


James

spud-face

it seems pretty reasonable to expect a more helpful attitude from the police if you're civil to them - in any manner of service sector job for that matter. why should they do anything but work to rule if you make their job more unpleasant than necessary? from not very comparable experience of working in the engineer's stores at a factory, we'd go a lot further than our role demanded for those who treated us as real people - it's human nature.

I've never quite understood people having tantrums at call centre staff, as though said underpaid job-hater can change company policy and make it all better for them. The same goes for the police - the last i heard they don't decide protocol in the staffroom.

@ slimboyjim- maybe the west mids boys are more enthusiastic than the national average, a couple of years ago I rang up Brierley Hill station about a shifty looking nipper hanging around a neighbour's house at 3am (lights off, front window wide open) and within 15mins they rang me back to tell me they'd been round and what excuse the kid made. Also, having the copper chopper circling over my house 3-4 nights a week gives me the snug feeling that all's safe whilst i'm at work (though i start to wonder whether they're Blue Thundering my elderly neighbours :shock: )
oh, and does anyone know if they're opening a station in Cradley Heath Tescos? there's always a couple mooching about in there when i'm in late at night (often with a basket full of crisps - but Tesco's Poverty Brand crisps tax payers, you can sleep easy)

slimboyjim

And to be fair to you Hebdenbiker it seems obvious that you have had a poor quality of service on more than one occasion, and I hope you complained. Don't forget if you are not happy with an answer you get as a result of a complaint you have a right of appeal (with the IPCC). I don't begrudge you of your anger or upset as you have obviously been let down and I would feel the same. I'm just asking that you do not tar your view of all police officers because of the actions of a few... The incident with your wife screams neglect of duty to be honest and, unless there are some VERY good reasons why they acted in that way they really shouldn't be in the job...

tlw1

sh1t sounds a bad one! I am going to ride like a girl because I have got a 450 mile ride over 5 days next month!

We need pictures though!

spud-face

jesus, i'll have to start typing faster - that point was fresh when i started..

ghost_walker

i've had a lot of dealings with police in a previous job and to be honest the majority of them were nice enough. the free coffee might of had something to do with that tho.

mind you the coffee was foul but i was alone in a garage in the middle of nowhere and i never locked the garage door so taxi drivers and the cops could use the facilities.

i was on the end of the run between two stations so i think the hot drink and the chance for a quick slash was welcome. so i got to know a few and kept the regular sweets and papers for them.

the pair of lassies that gave me a kiss at new years were especially welcome too!!

but with every occupation there is always a couple of eijits that spoil it for everyone.

i've even met them too.

the story goes my car got hit in a car park and the hitter party buggered off. so i picked the bumper up and slung it on the back seat to repair when i got home where i had tools.

got pulled for not having it on and both brake lights out. whilst there the male copper had me use all the bits on the car. e.g wipers and such and checked the tyres for depth.

whilst he was doing this the lassie cop who was taking my particulars said stay calm he's a bit of a tit under her breath as she could see i was getting a bit narked with his attitude. i was son to him, not mr xxx or used my first name even tho i was trying very hard not to be narky back to him

my mates who i was following at the time had come back at this point and stood watching what was going on, not interfering.

now remember officer eijit is still checking the tyres and having me press various buttons now he asked to me test the horn while he was still down checking the nearside front tyre.

guess where the horn was?? yup you guessed right

cue my two mates now rolling around laughing and the lassie cop trying to keep a straight face while the eijit is swearing up a blue moon.

btw went to mot station next day after repairing bumper and doing nothing about the lights and no problems at all

wasn't worth complaining about. i had had my revenge with the horn!! :twisted:

slimboyjim

Don't worry - I've got some good ones that'll go up once I'm out...!

Spudface - we're going through MASSIVE restructuring at the moment so possibly, but since they won't even tell me where I'll be working in six weeks time I haven't a clue

They do say that it takes 10 pieces of good work to counter one bad, and I believe that's evident here...

The thing with the cameras mentioned by Hebdon is a pretty good example - is a pretty new area of business and it is obvious that a few mistakes have been made in the law's infancy, but I like to think we're getting a bit more specific now. Usual thing about 'what does a terrorist look like' and not forgetting that security information is a tradable commodity between serious crime groups and terror organisations applies. Again we're in an impossible position as, if the security forces fail to stop hostile recon and people get killed we get the blame, and if we seize an innocent individuals camera we end up in the national news...

We do our best and whilst we are criticised unfairly sometimes, other times the criticism is quite correct (Hebdon's wife's experience appearing to be a shining example). As I stated though it is not fair for people to stereotype me or my colleagues as the result of another's actions. What is important for us is to learn from general failures and improve the quality of service we provide, something that I believe we are now doing. Individual officers meanwhile should be disciplined (including removal from the job where appropriate) if they do not perform their role satisfactorily.

I think that should strike a chord with most!


James

PS. Nice story about the horn

Thewaylander

Hey James,

It's nice to have your point of veiw aired. But it is sad that alot of us have had such bad experinces. And sadly we can only go by the experiences we have had. I think the police does attract alot of a certain type of people(people i used to at school consider to be bullies)

I'm now 29(got a few months before 30 yet) but look very young most people wouldn't put past 21/22, In my experiences i had more attitude from the officers until they saw my age, then they became more respectful.. This lowered my opinion even further i must say.

I try to keep an open mind but after 3 unpleasent experiences with the police(and no record i may add ) its very hard not to veiw whole force with a tarred brush if you like. It's an image thing and the police as a whole need to work on it i think.

but for the rest of you nice guys keep up working hard

slimboyjim

I too look young for my age and tend to have a similar problem with my clients!

Like I said to Hebdon I don't expect to change his opinions - those who've had a bad service will always be a bit upset. I was just trying to remind everyone that we're not all bad and, unfortunately, can't always please everyone. The post was becoming a bit of a 'all police officers are useless' whinge which is just not true and I was hoping to curb it a little!

Thewaylander

Which is fair enough, But i think people get more enraged when receiving poor manners/service what ever from people in a position responsability and power. which why it can get a bit heavy as this thread has

cee

slimboyjim

Hey....

Whilst I appreciate that being a police officer means you have contact with a lot of abusive people....you deal with criminals, and drunk people causing a nuisance. who might not be polite all the time...fair enough....

I do believe though that due to this constant barrage of abuse given to you (police officers...not YOU..you know what i mean), makes you (police officers) expect the aggro before you even get it...thus changing the way that you (police officers) approach people.

Now I would be willing to give you that 9 times out of ten...the attitude that you expect would have come anyway......because of the types of people that you commonly deal with...

However that leaves a lot of good folks who you (police officers) alienate, by expecting the aggro and starting the exchange from that standpoint.

The fact is.....that police officers are more used to dealing with scrotes...than they are with good folks....its the nature of the job.

and of course some individuals are worse than others....but the collective experience of attitude from police officers is that generally...they treat everyone like scrotes.

bails87

I think we need to put this in perspective.

There are abuses of anti terror legislation, but I think they're either from a misunderstanding, incorrect guidance or political pressure from above. Such as the coach load of protestors who were forced away from the US air base a few years back. But the officers doing that job have been ordered to do it. Or the photography thing, where officers believed that any pictures of a public place could be seized.

On a general day-to-day basis, people get pulled over or stopped and searched, it happens. If the worst thing that happened to you was "the officer was in a bad mood" then is it really that terrible. I've not had any 'real' contact with the police, just things like when they're walking through bars, or they have an 'anti-knife' drive and have metal detectors in the streets. And they've been fine. Polite, courteous, no trouble and a reassuring presence.

Remeber, if you get pulled over, or stopped and searched, the officer may well be thinking "is this guy a drug dealer, a smackhead, has he got a weapon, is he going to run or attack me?" In those situations, giving someone the benefit of the doubt, rather than being 'assertive' and possibly coming across as rude, could mean the difference between life and death. A lot of the time it may well turn out to be nothing, but just because you know you're harmless, don't assume that the police know that.....

One of my housemates at uni was walking back from the library at a stupid time at night, and he was annoyed when he got home because the Police had been asking him questions. Turned out there'd been a burglary a few minutes earlier, and the first officers to arrive saw him heading down an alleyway with a hood up and a full rucksack at 1 in the morning. He knew he was on his way back from the library, so he thought it was stupid, but to anyone else it looked mighty suspicious.

cee

bails87 wrote:

Remeber, if you get pulled over, or stopped and searched, the officer may well be thinking "is this guy a drug dealer, a smackhead, has he got a weapon, is he going to run or attack me?" In those situations, giving someone the benefit of the doubt, rather than being 'assertive' and possibly coming across as rude, could mean the difference between life and death. A lot of the time it may well turn out to be nothing, but just because you know you're harmless, don't assume that the police know that.....

I agree bails...and i think this kind of mirrors my post...i would rather be the one in ten that a police officer was wrong about, than them not catch the other 9 scrotes.