OT: Employment advice (again)

always_tyred

There are two partners.

Yes there is a reason.

I think, I know, that the other partner is aware of the reason however I am not in a position to do anything other than flag that I'm uncomfortable and that I have found certain things quite humiliating. Hopefully he will be able to put two and two together and have a quiet word.

I'm not sure he knows the extent of the problem. For example, I was "told off" for being disrespectful to him the other day (by her) and when I suggested that I should apologise, I was told not to (sharply), arguing that this was disprespectful to her. I apologised to him anyway, and he really didn't seem to know what I was talking about.

So, certainly some silly buggers going on, possibly worse.

lost_in_thought

I have to say, if the 'owner' of the company asks me to dress more smartly (it's happened several times before) I just do it. One previous employer asked me to stop wearing flat shoes, so I did. It's their company, their image.

That aside, I don't think you'd be whingeing about it if it wasn't more than just the clothing/facial hair.

Maybe take some time in an evening or whenever you're both around and not excessively busy, set a meeting if needed, and try to have a calm, non-confrontational discussion about what exactly is going on.

Whether or not it amounts to bullying, I've no idea. It's immaterial really, seeing as you don't want to move jobs and it's her company. Is there another partner?

dilemna

Few years ago, a female team leader from a neighbouring team who was considered to be a 8itch by her team, started to direct some of her attitude in my direction. I was in a different team so she had no line management responsibility. It must have been some sort of power thing or that she was deeply insecure. Anyway I didn't rise to any of it or try to let it spoil my day. One day she barked one of her put downs at me "Alex ......... what you doing? You look a bit stunned!" So I slowly turned to face her and said "That's because you are stunning Kirsty." She went bright bright red. This was in front of a few key people in her team. She never treated me with anything but the utmost courtesy and respect after that. And no I didn't if anyone is wondering. Please.

always_tyred

lost_in_thought wrote:

I have to say, if the 'owner' of the company asks me to dress more smartly (it's happened several times before) I just do it. One previous employer asked me to stop wearing flat shoes, so I did. It's their company, their image.

That aside, I don't think you'd be whingeing about it if it wasn't more than just the clothing/facial hair.

Well here's the thing. Thus far, I've jumped when she's said jump. I have no option.

This has included getting newer and more expensive shirts and buying a new suit. It has included spending my lunch hour yesterday at Boots, shaving and heading out to a meeting looking like I had a skin complaint.

I appreciate that when Duncan Bannatyne gets a suit made for him, its better than mine. However, I happen to know that the other partner bought his new suit at the same place I bought mine, off the peg. I happen to know which suit and that its the one that is a touch less expensive than mine.

So I do feel that the comments are unrelated to the actual situation.

And I did not look like the wild man of Borneo yesterday - I had a barely descernable pale coloured 1/2mm of stubble. My gf might have noticed it if we furiously necked all of a sudden, but I hardly think my boss should have been worried by it.

dilemna

Always Tyred wrote:

There are two partners.

Yes there is a reason.

I think, I know, that the other partner is aware of the reason however I am not in a position to do anything other than flag that I'm uncomfortable and that I have found certain things quite humiliating. Hopefully he will be able to put two and two together and have a quiet word.

I'm not sure he knows the extent of the problem. For example, I was "told off" for being disrespectful to him the other day (by her) and when I suggested that I should apologise, I was told not to (sharply), arguing that this was disprespectful to her. I apologised to him anyway, and he really didn't seem to know what I was talking about.

So, certainly some silly buggers going on, possibly worse.

Sounds a bad situation. If you're confident you are good at your job and you've no complaints from clients or other issues then confront her. The boot it would seem is on your foot. Tell her you know exactly what she is up to. It's not big or clever. You have the evidence and if it doesn't stop it will cost her, the firm, an awful lot of money. Does she really want this? If she has any sense she will stop her behaviour immediately.

Or arrange to meet with the 2 partners addressing them both. Obviously take a less blunt approach as the other partner will be present and he may not be aware of the full extent of the situation. Take a companion to record notes if need be.

How long have you been there?

suzyb

lost_in_thought wrote:

I have to say, if the 'owner' of the company asks me to dress more smartly (it's happened several times before) I just do it. One previous employer asked me to stop wearing flat shoes, so I did. It's their company, their image.

But what if you couldn't wear non flat shoes. If you couldn't walk in them, not through any physical problem but just didn't feel comfortable.

If their image is something particular like women in heeled shoes, then that should be specified in their dress code. If they want men clean shaven it should be specified in their dress code. So employees can see when they receive the contract exactly what attire they are expected to wear.

always_tyred

-null- wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

I have to say, if the 'owner' of the company asks me to dress more smartly (it's happened several times before) I just do it. One previous employer asked me to stop wearing flat shoes, so I did. It's their company, their image.

But what if you couldn't wear non flat shoes. If you couldn't walk in them, not through any physical problem but just didn't feel comfortable.

If their image is something particular like women in heeled shoes, then that should be specified in their dress code. If they want men clean shaven it should be specified in their dress code. So employees can see when they receive the contract exactly what attire they are expected to wear.

Indeed, just because the law says you shouldn't, employers do still make unreasonable requests.

Dress codes, for example, can only go as far as to be equally applicable to both sexes. Thus, if dress for men is a suit and tie, dress for women cannot, legally, be a nurse's costume and fishnets.

greg66_tri_v2.0

By chance: what's your view of her professionally? Not great?

If so, it's possible that she's picked up on that, and simply doesn't like you for it. Esp if you're academically better qualified than her; shoulders and chips come to mind).

(I suggest this simply because a similar situation arose with a mate of mine a few years ago).

greg66_tri_v2.0

lost_in_thought wrote:

One previous employer asked me to stop wearing flat shoes, so I did.

Ahh, the sacrifices that a lap dancer has to make these days. I dunno.

always_tyred

Greg66 wrote:

By chance: what's your view of her professionally? Not great?

If so, it's possible that she's picked up on that, and simply doesn't like you for it. Esp if you're academically better qualified than her; shoulders and chips come to mind).

(I suggest this simply because a similar situation arose with a mate of mine a few years ago).

Generally, she's sh!t hot at what she does, in my view. I wouldn't claim to be brighter or more capable than her.

The issues may, or may not, be of a more personal nature.

lost_in_thought

Greg66 wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

One previous employer asked me to stop wearing flat shoes, so I did.

Ahh, the sacrifices that a lap dancer has to make these days. I dunno.

Office manager at a real estate development company, I'll have you know.

And Null, if I'd had a problem with wearing heels I'd have said something. The same company had me get rid of receptionists because they were fat. I felt like a complete b!tch doing so, not least because it's illegal so I had to concoct all manner of silly excuses. But it's their company, their rules.

Anyhow, all a bit irrelevant, but it does relate.

It sounds like she's got it in for you, and the appearance stuff is just her way of sniping. It sounds like you might also have a good idea of why. I guess you can a) talk to her, b) talk to the other partner or c) ignore it and hope it resolves itself. I'd go for a) but I'm a rather confrontational sort in the workplace!

will3

Get a copy of her outfit. Pick a nice dress. Go to work in that.

She can hardly complain if it's the same as she wears can she?

Wallace1492

Always Tyred wrote:

Greg66 wrote:

By chance: what's your view of her professionally? Not great?

If so, it's possible that she's picked up on that, and simply doesn't like you for it. Esp if you're academically better qualified than her; shoulders and chips come to mind).

(I suggest this simply because a similar situation arose with a mate of mine a few years ago).

Generally, she's sh!t hot at what she does, in my view. I wouldn't claim to be brighter or more capable than her.

The issues may, or may not, be of a more personal nature.

There does seem to be far more to it than what meets the eye. It obviously is not to do with how you dress or how you shave.

You have alluded that there is more than what you are saying, so it will be difficult for people to advise you correctly (or take the pi55, depending on who posts! )

I recon she has the hots for you but for what ever reason can do nothing about it, or you have given her a knockback. Therefore she is trying to assert her dominance over you. Hopefully if the "incident" (if there was one) was recent, and time will sort things out.

greg66_tri_v2.0

Always Tyred wrote:

The issues may, or may not, be of a more personal nature.

This is becoming a bit mysterious now. You're unlikely to get useful advice if you don't want to disclose the whole problem.

dilemna

will3 wrote:

Get a copy of her outfit. Pick a nice dress. Go to work in that.

She can hardly complain if it's the same as she wears can she?

Heheheheeeeeeee......

el_presidente

I refer the OP to my previous reply concerning the boardroom table

mrc1

Always Tyred wrote:

I appreciate that when Duncan Bannatyne gets a suit made for him, its better than mine.

I have to agree with the boss if your suits are worse than this Patrick Batemen chalk stripe.

Kieran_Burns

Greg66 wrote:

Always Tyred wrote:

The issues may, or may not, be of a more personal nature.

This is becoming a bit mysterious now. You're unlikely to get useful advice if you don't want to disclose the whole problem.

Just after Christmas.... works Christmas do..... things are known to happen :shock:


(on all the advice front, one thing you should be doing is making notes of any 'incidents' immediately after they've happened)

el_presidente

Kieran_Burns wrote:

(on all the advice front, one thing you should be doing is making notes of any 'incidents' immediately after they've happened)

and posting in full detail on here

greg66_tri_v2.0

Kieran_Burns wrote:

(on all the advice front, one thing you should be doing is making notes of any 'incidents' immediately after they've happened)

That would make for interesting reading.

"23 Dec. Shagged boss at Xmas party.
23 Dec. Told by boss to stopping writing notes during amorous afterglow"

DonDaddyD

Flirt with her, she may be doing it as reverse psychology to be placed at a 90degree angle to get the kink out of her back... yeah I said it.

In this situation I would take no prisoners (though I've never had any comments about my presention). Have a full and frank discussion. Quote the price and expense of your clothes, ask for further clarification and flippantly invite her to go shopping with you. That should shut her up

Your clothes may cost a fair amount but are your shirts and suits pressed your shoes polished? I have a steam generator iron to press/iron my clothes. It's not just about where you get your clothes from its how you wear them.

That said I dress for the environment. There is no point me going to parlimentary dinners or meetings wearing jeans, timberlands and a hood. When dealing with paitients it would be near suicide wearing a suit. In the office, any combination of jeans, trousers, jumpers and shirt (never a tie). In a job interview or meeting suit, tie shirt,

Some may not like me saying this but back in the secondary school and college days along with being taught how to sit an interview, teachers would tell us that (i) we would be stereotyped from the off so it was important not to feed that. This programming (which should have resulted in a f*cking riot to be honest) translated into "appearance and how you carry yourself is important". No point me talking in a South London faux-Jamaican voice to my Chief Exec if he doesn't respond welll. So I play the game (within reason).

il_principe

It's funny how you hear about so many legal firms who seem to push the boundaries of employment law. I've got a few mates who work/ed on magic circle companies and the way they were treated when they started was unbelievable. I know that's just how it works in these firms but all the same. 1 friend had a boss in his first year who would not let her leave until she did. This would often be 1 or 2am, and she'd then be expected to be in for 6. Crazy way to treat people, especially when you've spent so much recruiting highly intelligent grads... and they get away with it. Oh the irony.

DonDaddyD

The same company had me get rid of receptionists because they were fat. I felt like a complete b!tch doing so, not least because it's illegal so I had to concoct all manner of silly excuses. But it's their company, their rules.

Yeah, see that's a line I wouldn't cross. It may be their company but there are rules and laws that protect people working within any company. Also from a sheer ethical standpoint its just worng.

Not enough money in the World could make me sell my soul or my principles.

Wallace1492

DonDaddyD wrote:

Flirt with her

I think this is the problem because either 1. He did or 2. He didn't. 3. She did, but he didn't.

Perhaps suggest to her that she assists with dressing you might help

il_principe

DonDaddyD wrote:

The same company had me get rid of receptionists because they were fat. I felt like a complete b!tch doing so, not least because it's illegal so I had to concoct all manner of silly excuses. But it's their company, their rules.

Yeah, see that's a line I wouldn't cross. It may be their company but there are rules and laws that protect people working within any company. Also from a sheer ethical standpoint its just worng.

Not enough money in the World could make me sell my soul or my principles.

Ooh I sense handbags. I take your point DDD, but given the state of the economy last year I'd put job security over ethics to an extent so can see Liv's point.

DonDaddyD

Wallace1492 wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Flirt with her

I think this is the problem because either 1. He did or 2. He didn't. 3. She did, but he didn't.

Perhaps suggest to her that she assists with dressing you might help

Or undressing.

There are ways to flirt or hint at flirting that can get people to either back off or get them uder your wing/on your side. They aren't sure its flirting but aren't sure it isn't don't know how to handle it so stay neutral to how they feel about you. They become willing to trust you with secrets but never really sure if they should. "How to win friends and influence people" I had/have to do this at work quite often which is why I vent or am prone to a wild night of recklessness and speaking of the mind.

My favourite moment was when I went to work and told the gay guy who was giving me sh*t that he fancied me that's why he was being such a b*tch. "You want some chocolate don't you?" I would say in a provocative way. but then other times had quite intimate conversations about homosexuality. He soon backed off. This was me in my early 20s I've become more sophisticated methods since then.

always_tyred

Wallace1492 wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Flirt with her

I think this is the problem because either 1. He did or 2. He didn't. 3. She did, but he didn't.

Perhaps suggest to her that she assists with dressing you might help

I couldn't possibly comment.

However I am in a long term relationship with someone so I am happy to rule out no. 1 and confirm no. 2. No 3. is so ambiguous that I don't think anyone could possibly know. I mean, is there a God? Why is there air? Are we all really here and is this computer real?

shouldbeinbed

Greg66 wrote:

Always Tyred wrote:

The issues may, or may not, be of a more personal nature.

This is becoming a bit mysterious now. You're unlikely to get useful advice if you don't want to disclose the whole problem.

+1 I think you know that it's harassment given the detail you've posted about yourself and others & dress codes etc. I also think you're you're being played and set up for a big fall.

I've been in a similar position, hounded by someone who was extremely well connected to the top and my job is like yours, only 43 place in the whole country I can work, none within a reasonable distance, nor to maintain a family life and its quite a small & enclosed professional community - mud flies a long way and sticks forever.

I was driven past my wits end trying to handle it myself and started reacting very badly to the (i see it now) deliberate provocation to the point where I was fighthing for my job against a well put together and cleverly edited dossier of 'evidence' and a tremendously well worked sob story of what a monster I was. I'm lucky I had a s**t hot union rep and HR officer investigating with a very good eye for between the lines. The upshot, we both ended up on serious warnings (as did the connections for hanging me out to dry) and thankfully I've been free of that level of hassle ever since.

You can't deal with this on your own and don't think that the semi public bollockings are the only thing that are going on. There will be quiet poison dripping into other ears too.

document everything, communicate with her as much in traceable and verifiable written format as possible, even if it means emails 'just to clarify what we talked about earlier..../-/...have I got this right? ' tie her to specifics and put her on the spot as innocently as possible.

You need to bring this up now in a constructive and safe way : The other partner would seem best assuming that its a private firm without an autonomous HR dept to arbitrate - have a big 1:1 chat and lay it all out openly and honestly - whats been said - highlight the suit etc, any proof you posess (none I bet), your fears for your job, her escalation of this, private bollockings you've had, (give chapter and verse about your mystifying apology to him- that should set an alarm ringing somewhere in his head even if he doesn't show it) and be completely up front about whatever the back story is that you're not telling on here (I don't blame you). Document that accurately - take copious notes ask him to sign them as an accurate record. Ideally have a mutually acceptable scribe or audio record it. Treat it like an investigatory interview.

Also find a Union, speak to your professional body about reasonable codes of practice & the industry norm and have a look at the ACAS website- they do personal intervention and advice as well as corporate.

Even if he can't stop it, you'll at least have some protection when it comes to the inevitable major confrontation and disciplinary issue, that you've highlighted worries of bullying previously and its not some spur of the moment tactic to try and save your skin when you're put on suspension/handed a p45.

don't suffer in silence or on your own, good luck with it

DonDaddyD

Il Principe wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

The same company had me get rid of receptionists because they were fat. I felt like a complete b!tch doing so, not least because it's illegal so I had to concoct all manner of silly excuses. But it's their company, their rules.

Yeah, see that's a line I wouldn't cross. It may be their company but there are rules and laws that protect people working within any company. Also from a sheer ethical standpoint its just worng.

Not enough money in the World could make me sell my soul or my principles.

Ooh I sense handbags. I take your point DDD, but given the state of the economy last year I'd put job security over ethics to an extent so can see Liv's point.

No handbags. LiT's knows or should know that I got mad respect for her. I disagree with her decision but that's all. I couldn't work in that kind of environment because that's the type of person I am. LiTs can, doesn't mean either of us are better than each other. Just different people.

AT wrote:

However I am in a long term relationship with someone so I am happy to rule out no. 1 and confirm no. 2. No 3. is so ambiguous that I don't think anyone could possibly know. I mean, is there a God? Why is there air? Are we all really here and is this computer real?

You think she does don't you. You think she wants to jump your bones. :twisted:

always_tyred

DonDaddyD wrote:

AT wrote:

However I am in a long term relationship with someone so I am happy to rule out no. 1 and confirm no. 2. No 3. is so ambiguous that I don't think anyone could possibly know. I mean, is there a God? Why is there air? Are we all really here and is this computer real?

You think she does don't you. You think she wants to jump your bones. :twisted:

Oh, I've never been that confident and so I would not dream of drawing any such conclusions unless someone were to actually say something to me.