OT: Employment advice (again)

always_tyred

Does anyone know where the reasonable boundaries lie in terms of attire and presentation at work?

I work in the legal field. I've never had complaints before, but in the last 6 months I've been told I need a better suit, better shirts and yesterday I got told go go and have a shave before attending a meeting. Its actually quite humiliating.

I've got a new suit and new shirts (which I thought were nice until she commented on them a few times), new ties and I have short tidy hair, etc. but to prevent constant itching and blotchiness I shave every 2 days or so.

I think the (female) partner is overstepping the mark and I'm getting increasingly uncomfortable (there are other issues which I can't go into). What else is there left for her to comment on? (She owns the firm - jointly - and seems to have no barometer or anyone to moderate her behaviour).

Where's the line and is she crossing it?

Wallace1492

Always Tyred wrote:

Does anyone know where the reasonable boundaries lie in terms of attire and presentation at work?

I work in the legal field. I've never had complaints before, but in the last 6 months I've been told I need a better suit, better shirts and yesterday I got told go go and have a shave before attending a meeting. Its actually quite humiliating.

I've got a new suit and new shirts (which I thought were nice until she commented on them a few times), new ties and I have short tidy hair, etc. but to prevent constant itching and blotchiness I shave every 2 days or so.

I think the (female) partner is overstepping the mark and I'm getting increasingly uncomfortable (there are other issues which I can't go into). What else is there left for her to comment on? (She owns the firm - jointly - and seems to have no barometer or anyone to moderate her behaviour).

Where's the line and is she crossing it?

You need to stop shopping at Oxfam..... :shock:

Really though it is a very difficult issue, as her idea of a sharp suit and smart shirt and tie might not be the same as yours. You need to try and speak to her in a friendly way and see if some sort of comprimise can be reached. She obviously has high expectations, and wants to project the correct image as she sees it.

As long as you are conforming to the dress code that is set, i do not see what she can do about it.

mikespike80

A few thoughts.

1- This sounds like bullying and if, as you hint, there are other problems then you must start a log of these comments so that if the worst came to the worst you would have some kind of evidence of bullying.

2- You must talk to her about this, make an appointment and sit down and ask her what she expects whilst letting her know how you feel and why you shave every two days. There is clearly a mis match of expectations and you need to reconcile this.

3- Have a think about using top quality shaving gear for a better face! I don't wish to teach you to suck eggs but have a shower and wash your face well. When you get out use a good shave gel (Strongly recommend King of Shaves Gel) and apply liberally. Then use a good razor e.g. Mach 4 (and throw old blades away- the older they are the worse they are at cutting) and shave slowly in a mirror. Afterwards rinse with cold water and then apply a soothing after shave - I use clinique. Failing that buy a top quality electric shaver (£100+) and use that.

4- Finally, when you shop for shirts and ties, if poss take a woman with you who is good at shopping! I never buy a suit or shirt without either Mum or Girlfriend Sad but they know what works and what doesn't better than we ever will!

Hopefully not too patronising!!
Mike

mrc1

Get some of this stuff and a moisturiser (in advance of "real man" style comments from the 1940s cold water shave brigade - get real) and you won't suffer from this anymore. It's brilliant.

http://www.mankind.co.uk/Tend-Skin-In-Growing-Hair-Solution-118ml-PRODTSPS1/

il_principe

mrc1 wrote:

Get some of this stuff and a moisturiser (in advance of "real man" style comments from the 1940s cold water shave brigade - get real) and you won't suffer from this anymore. It's brilliant.

http://www.mankind.co.uk/Tend-Skin-In-Growing-Hair-Solution-118ml-PRODTSPS1/

+1 this is great at preventing uncomfy blotches/ingrowing hairs. I'd also suggest some shave oil - applied first, then gel. Just switched to King of Shaves for razors, oil and gel - razor is far better than gillette.

el_presidente

I couldn't get on with that KoS razor at all, I binned it after a week and went back to Gillette.

always_tyred

Okay - I don't need help to shave - I'm 36. I've tried quite a few things and perhaps I have a low tolerance threshold.

My suit is more expensive than my (other) boss's.

My shirts cost about £25 a pop. Okay, that's not a vast amount, but for an every day office shirt, its fine. I have £100 shoes. There isn't anything wrong with me presentation, or I feel that I may have had comments before.

The only comment I've ever had from a client is that I was over dressed.

What happens if someone with a tattoo comes to work here, or someone with long hair, or someone fat, or ugly? Where's the line?

Wallace1492

el_presidente wrote:

I couldn't get on with that KoS razor at all, I binned it after a week and went back to Gillette.

Thought they only did shaving gel and not razors? I prefer Gilette.... used to use BIC, 1 blade.... they are great is you want to have the Singing Detective look!

rolf_f

Always Tyred wrote:

Does anyone know where the reasonable boundaries lie in terms of attire and presentation at work?

I work in the legal field. I've never had complaints before, but in the last 6 months I've been told I need a better suit, better shirts and yesterday I got told go go and have a shave before attending a meeting. Its actually quite humiliating.

I've got a new suit and new shirts (which I thought were nice until she commented on them a few times), new ties and I have short tidy hair, etc. but to prevent constant itching and blotchiness I shave every 2 days or so.

I think the (female) partner is overstepping the mark and I'm getting increasingly uncomfortable (there are other issues which I can't go into). What else is there left for her to comment on? (She owns the firm - jointly - and seems to have no barometer or anyone to moderate her behaviour).

Where's the line and is she crossing it?

Are you being treated differently to anyone else? Are you, arguably, as crispy (!) as the others? If not, then she is probably within her rights. I'd expect legal firms to have higher standards than most. They can even expect you to have very modern cars - all about the image. Personally, I look down on those whose cars are less than 20 years old but others have different ideas........

Incidentally, if you want a nice suit, you can still get good value bespoke tailoring in some parts of the country - eg easy enough here in Leeds. You can source top quality fabric and find a tailor to make it into a suit made to measure for the same price (or less) as a duff, overpriced Burtons type suit made in the far east. Luckily I can get away with scruffy shirt, tie and jumper so I've not had to

Ditto re the shaving thing - I used shaving oil for a while and that eventually caused irritation. Ordinary foam actually works much better for me.

suzyb

tbh I think she's picking on you. If your wearing a suit, shirt and tie and it's all tucked in then you are smart enough for any business.

el_presidente

maybe she secretly fancies you and this strange behaviour is a manifestation of her unspoken desire. Do her over the boardroom table this evening when everyone's gone home and your problems will disappear.

always_tyred

el_presidente wrote:

maybe she secretly fancies you and this strange behaviour is a manifestation of her unspoken desire. Do her over the boardroom table this evening when everyone's gone home and your problems will disappear.

always_tyred

Rolf F wrote:

Are you being treated differently to anyone else? Are you, arguably, as crispy (!) as the others? If not, then she is probably within her rights. I'd expect legal firms to have higher standards than most. They can even expect you to have very modern cars - all about the image. Personally, I look down on those whose cars are less than 20 years old but others have different ideas........

Incidentally, if you want a nice suit, you can still get good value bespoke tailoring in some parts of the country - eg easy enough here in Leeds. You can source top quality fabric and find a tailor to make it into a suit made to measure for the same price (or less) as a duff, overpriced Burtons type suit made in the far east. Luckily I can get away with scruffy shirt, tie and jumper so I've not had to

Ditto re the shaving thing - I used shaving oil for a while and that eventually caused irritation. Ordinary foam actually works much better for me.

Yes, as far as I can determine, I'm being treated differently. The other guys are dressed similarly. One has a trendy 3 piece suit which, fankly, looks naff, particularly with the gawdy yellow shirt and winkle picker shoes. Myself, I go for muted tones so as not to cause offence.

bannedbiker

People, the guy asked for employment advice, not shaving instructions!
Mate, like someone else said, this does soudn like a bullying case. As he said, keep a record of what is said (both by her to you AND to by you to her). Make an appointment to see her. This doesn't have to be on your own, if you have a collegue you are friendly with, ask them to go in with you. This helps in a few ways: you feel backed up (morral support), you have a witness to everything said in there, sometimes other people can see things in a different way which can ease situations.
If you are dressed as smart or smarter than your other boss, talk to your other boss! Have a word with him/her about it before you go to your appointment, and if they are amenable maybe ask them to attend as well.
Most companies have some form of dress code, even if its one line saying "your apperance must be smart and tidy". Try and find a copy of this so that you know where you stand, and you can then present this at your appointment.

rolf_f

Have you read 'Somebodies moved my cheese' (or something like) - quite handy for this sort of thing. It encourages you to go with the flow a bit (even if it is annoying) - sounds naff but it has made a difference to me. Try asking the boss what is wrong with your suit, shirts etc. Where would she recommend you go? If you can pretend to convince yourself that she is being reasonable, do exactly what she wants, in the nicest and most positive way, and she is still being difficult, then at least you know you did your best. She'll either be happy that you are doing what she wants or she just doesn't like you and you can then concentrate on finding somewhere else to work in your own good time.

And I think it is worth being relentlessly unflappable. No signs of irritation etc. Treat everything she says in a positive light so she can't use your response as ammo against you. At least you retain the high moral ground!

soy_sauce

-null- wrote:

tbh I think she's picking on you. If your wearing a suit, shirt and tie and it's all tucked in then you are smart enough for any business.

+1

bigmat

Kind of sounds like bullying. But law firms are pretty conservative in terms of image, not the first time I've heard of this sort of issue (tends to be female partners with an issue, and more often tends to be with younger female solicitors...). If you have suits, shirts and shoes that aren't worn out then shouldn't really be an issue, but maybe take your style cues from other lawyers you see (depressing I know). Re shaving, I have always had similar issues but have just had to find a way round for work, the "once every two days" thing would not go down well. But then I am quite stubbly generally. Wet shaves kill me, no matter what I do, so I stick with Philips electric shavers.

Re employment law (an answer to your actual question?!) its all a question of what is reasonable. I think they have a point re the shaving, sounds less so re the wardrobe. I second the guy who said to keep a record of what is being said to you that makes you feel uncomfortable, and maybe have a word with your boss if you feel able to do so. If it doesn't improve / gets worse then get some proper legal advice - you'll probably get an hour for free somewhere with a proper employment lawyer. Best of luck!

Wallace1492

Managed to find a picture of Always, I don't see the problem....
But i agree - Boardroom table, tonight, let us know how you get on.

UndercoverElephant

OK, AT, it does sound like you're getting it a bit strong. There are basically a few of things you can do here, firstly, smarten up, suits aren't all about price. If like me, you aren't quite the regular shape (I'm kinda broad at the shoulder, slim at the hip, and have a really thick neck), you'll find that off the peg suits always look bad on you, mine used to look like I'd left the coathanger in. Get a close friend to measure you, and get some custom suits and shirts from : http://www.ravistailor.com/ highly recommended.

Secondly, you can front it out, she really has no right if your work is good. This may be career limiting.

Thirdly, you can get a new job, and rid yourself of the harridan for good.

dilemna

As far as you know is it only you who is being singled out or targetted? If so then it is bullying/harassment fair and square. Her treatment of you could actually be sexual harassment if she is focusing on your facial shaving which is predominantly a male past time, unless she has issues of her own . Does your choice of clothing warrant the comments she has made to you? How specific is their dress code? Be objective and if so do something about it. You are after all in the legal world where salaries are more than adequate. Maybe take a trip to Ausitn Reed or similar such establishment.

If none of her criticism is warranted, she sounds like an awful boss and person and a good reason to find another firm. What's the bigger picture? Is there some one else she favours for your position and this is her crude attempt at making the change? Nasty.

If your appearance and personal hygiene is good then don't worry. Try to show some back bone. Bullies like people who are subservient and don't or can't fight back. I know she's your boss which makes your situation difficult if you want to keep or need the job as most do. But do you really want to continue working for some one who is clearly so very shalllow?

If I went to a law or other professional firm that were so up themselves as this firm appears to be from your description I would go elsewhere. Feck 'em. What suit or car they wear or drive gives little inidcation of the quality of their legal advice. Any accountant will tell you an expensive car and sharp suit does not necessarily mean a solvent well run company.

You should point out it is the quality of service and value of money that the firm provides it's clients not whether you are wearing the latest cast off from the catwalk . Tell her to first take the plank out of her own eye before she tries to take the spec out of yours, or just tell her to sling her hook, but first you must make sure she genuinely has nothing on you.

If all else fails get one of the firms best clients to contact her singing your praises and requesting only to deal with you. Money talks.

always_tyred

UndercoverElephant wrote:

OK, AT, it does sound like you're getting it a bit strong. There are basically a few of things you can do here, firstly, smarten up, suits aren't all about price. If like me, you aren't quite the regular shape (I'm kinda broad at the shoulder, slim at the hip, and have a really thick neck), you'll find that off the peg suits always look bad on you, mine used to look like I'd left the coathanger in. Get a close friend to measure you, and get some custom suits and shirts from : http://www.ravistailor.com/ highly recommended.

Secondly, you can front it out, she really has no right if your work is good. This may be career limiting.

Thirdly, you can get a new job, and rid yourself of the harridan for good.

Right - there is nothing wrong with my goddam suit, okay. Its an off the peg, but in Italian wool. I look bloody good in it. Jesus christ.

For the purposes of this thread, can we please assume that my presentation is okay? I've been out of uni for quite some time and I've had about 6 complaints from one woman in 6 months, and none in the preceding two decades.

I would have to move house and city to get another job, that's not really an option.

I'm really wanting to know is, is this unreasonable (I don't know - certainly not in respect of my clothing - and given that I feel that I ought to be entitled to have a beard if I want, not in respect of my face).

It doesn't seem consistent with others - I just noticed another colleage with maybe 24 hours' growth. Oooh.

No. The woman has this habit of admonishing me about small things in her office, out of earshot of anyone else. She got completely hysterical about something yesterday, so I made sure I got "told off" later in a more open forum. The result was that I ended up with an apology since she really had no basis for the complaints, other than the fact that she'd turned up late, wasn't prepared for a meeting and didn't understand the law enough for me to even explain the implications of the research I'd done for her, oh, and she didn't have time to read my notes either, then shrieked hysterically for about 5 minutes before the conf call that I hadn't conveyed the legal position adequately.

However I don't know that I can engineer being "told off" by her in the presence of another partner every time.

greg66_tri_v2.0

Pragmatism.

It's her firm (partly). She takes the view that when clients see you, they see a projection of her. Like trying to appear smart to your mother, sometimes there will always be a mis-match between expectations.

Frankly, I'd say look to move jobs. It's lose/lose for you where you are. You continue to put up with it, and you're going to be career-limited. You set your battlelines, go to war, and you're career-limited. Whether or not it's bullying doesn't help - that's just a means to ease your exit route out of that job.

Always Tyred wrote:

I would have to move house and city to get another job, that's not really an option.

Really? How niche *is* your practice?


BTW: learn to shave and dress a bit more smartly (Couldn't resist).

el_presidente

Fight fire with fire. Eye her up critically and make a few comments - "oh i can see you enjoyed Christmas"

"the sales have been very poor this year haven't they"

"Primark really are so close to designer style these days I think"

etc etc

Skippy2309

on the shaving part, KoS every other day (I am the same, my skin ends up really sore after shaving, the aftershave gel hurts but makes it less blotchy, red and dry), I use an electric (cheap one) on the other day to keep the stubble back. Presentation is a big part of my job as well so have to keep everything tidy.


In a job I had a while ago (good few years now) one of the lads came in tracksuit and on a skate board (a BMW one) he was minted but after being told that unless he starts to smarten up they will get rid of him (a few times) I come back after 2 weeks off and theres a brand new lamboghini in the car park and he is in his office in a very expensive suit, waist coat, tie and a bloody scarf lol I dont propose going his route of dealing with it.

I would honestly say your boss is being a tit and bullying you, you could have a word and ask her for a meeting to discuss the issues at hand, she might not really understand how much or a tit shes being. I did the same thing with the current manager as he is a prat - after a few words he has been much better and not such an idiot.

Make sure you log all the snide comments as you may need them at a later date.

Christophe3967

Hard luck AT - this sounds pretty miserable and apart form the option of looking for another job, which may be impractical, you could start by contacting your employer's Employee Assistance Programme provider and speaking with one of their counsellors. If they don't have an EAP programme, you could go and talk to your GP and tell him/her that you're being put under stress at work, and ask what you should do about it. Potential outcomes are that you might be signed off, which could give you some breathing space to consider your next move, and that a clear message is sent to your employer that they may have a HSE issue to contend with.

Good luck.

always_tyred

Greg66 wrote:

Really? How niche *is* your practice?

Around 10 people in this city.

bigmat

Christophe3967 wrote:

Hard luck AT - this sounds pretty miserable and apart form the option of looking for another job, which may be impractical, you could start by contacting your employer's Employee Assistance Programme provider and speaking with one of their counsellors. If they don't have an EAP programme, you could go and talk to your GP and tell him/her that you're being put under stress at work, and ask what you should do about it. Potential outcomes are that you might be signed off, which could give you some breathing space to consider your next move, and that a clear message is sent to your employer that they may have a HSE issue to contend with.

Good luck.

Bad idea in the legal profession (and many others I imagine). Might ease your departure from your existing job on preferential terms, but would be incredibly limiting in any attempt to ever get another one. That's the problem - the employment laws may well be of assistance, but only if you get sacked. If she wants to get rid of you then she will. If she wants to make your life a misery then she can. Only issue is how much compensation you might get. Either work out a way to deal with the issues, or start looking for another job however awkward that might be.

redddraggon

I thought you were a scientist? All good scientists are scruffy.

Have you heard the saying "A tidy office is the product of an empty mind"?

metalmonkey

Call ACAS they should be able to give advice, its a good place so start.

dilemna

How many partners? Could you speak to any of them? Indirectly ask them about dress and whether they think there are any issues within the firm. If dress in their humble opinion is fine maybe they've noticed that her treatment of you or others has been a bit erratic recently. Could there be any reason? Probe for any big changes in roles or legal services that the firm may offer or cut back on. Then if there appear to be no issues with your appearance or performance cut to the chase and say that you are definitely not happy with her critical comments. Could they have a discreet word with her. See if it stops.

Can the Law Society or SRA help, on a confidential basis initially?

UndercoverElephant

Always Tyred wrote:

Right - there is nothing wrong with my goddam suit, okay. Its an off the peg, but in Italian wool. I look bloody good in it. Jesus christ.

Easy, Old Bean, easy! Your suit looks good in your mirror, we'll take that as read. My off the peg suits always looked awful on me, but I never realised how bad until I got a good suit.

I suspect what you're suffering here is negative gestalts. Basically, if someone has a low opinion of you, they pick up on the negative aspects of you. You know yourself that if you like someone, you'd think their work was better than identical work of someone you didn't.

Your main problem is overturning those gestalts, standing up for yourself may be a good way to do this, she may be impressed and may even be looking for that kind of reaction for a man in your field. Another way may be to go further in the dapper department than is necessary, though it sounds like you've tried that.