The poppy

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Comments

  • jedster
    jedster Posts: 1,717
    On the topic of freedom,

    I don't think anyone here thinks that people should be FORCED to wear a poppy. Of course people shuld be free not to.

    People should be free to make all kinds of poor choices. Criticising their choice is not an infringement of their freedom.

    I am arguing that wearing a poopy is a good thing. Not wearing one is a poor choice. But of course people should ve free to do that. And they are. I just don't see what freedom has got to do with the debate.
  • iainment
    iainment Posts: 992
    jedster wrote:
    On the topic of freedom,

    I don't think anyone here thinks that people should be FORCED to wear a poppy. Of course people shuld be free not to.

    People should be free to make all kinds of poor choices. Criticising their choice is not an infringement of their freedom.

    I am arguing that wearing a poopy is a good thing. Not wearing one is a poor choice. But of course people should ve free to do that. And they are. I just don't see what freedom has got to do with the debate.

    There are a couple who have said it should be compulsory, can't recall their names at the moment.

    FWIW at 11am I had a silent moment of reflection, solitary as here at my place of work in Ireland no one else was aware of what day it is.
    Old hippies don't die, they just lie low until the laughter stops and their time comes round again.
    Joseph Gallivan
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    Likewise, just had my 2 minutes of reflection outside in the sun... A girl from our office, wearing a poppy, who's brother is currently serving breezed past with a cheery "good morning!" midway through. :roll:
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • iainment
    iainment Posts: 992
    iainment wrote:
    jedster wrote:
    On the topic of freedom,

    I don't think anyone here thinks that people should be FORCED to wear a poppy. Of course people shuld be free not to.

    People should be free to make all kinds of poor choices. Criticising their choice is not an infringement of their freedom.

    I am arguing that wearing a poopy is a good thing. Not wearing one is a poor choice. But of course people should ve free to do that. And they are. I just don't see what freedom has got to do with the debate.

    There are a couple who have said it should be compulsory, can't recall their names at the moment.

    FWIW at 11am I had a silent moment of reflection, solitary as here at my place of work in Ireland no one else was aware of what day it is.

    Actually one who wants compulsory poppy wearing - The Boy Billy
    Old hippies don't die, they just lie low until the laughter stops and their time comes round again.
    Joseph Gallivan
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,665
    disgruntledgoat wrote:
    Likewise, just had my 2 minutes of reflection outside in the sun... A girl from our office, wearing a poppy, who's brother is currently serving breezed past with a cheery "good morning!" midway through. :roll:

    Well....never mind......
  • freehub
    freehub Posts: 4,257
    I don't want to stick a poppy on my clothes, I'd donate some spare change though.
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,477
    djbarren wrote:
    I am originally from the republic of Ireland, and on remembrance day we always wore a poppy, as a mark of respect to those fallen during WWI and WWII and I still do.

    Now that I live in N.Ireland it seems to me that Roman Catholic are the only ones who do not wear them. Why? They are all bitter, bitter to anything that they see as British. If they were to look up the following http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remembrance_Day they would see that the poppy is worn world wide and is just not a British thing.

    When we see a poppy worn, Let us reflect on the burden borne. By those who gave their life.
    That we at home in peace might live.

    I think we both know it's a bit more complex than that.
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • Vino
    Vino Posts: 184
    freehub wrote:
    I don't want to stick a poppy on my clothes, I'd donate some spare change though.

    Eez probably making purple hoody look "queer"
  • halfmanhalfsnookermachine
    halfmanhalfsnookermachine Posts: 55
    Hi all

    I have read the posts on this forum with interest and fascination. Having spent 20 years in HM forces (and still counting) , seen all sorts of sights - some of which i would not wish on anyone, all I will say is this.

    Reagrdless of your views on war, conflict, the Government, Tony Blair, Gordon Borown et al, the humble British squaddie, sailor or aiman,whether 1914 - 17, 40 -45 or of a later later vintage, deserves one day a year where everyone spends a moment - two minutes to be precise - just to reflect and say thank you.

    If you need still convincing, someone much more eloquent than me wrote this:

    The average British soldier is 19 years old ... he is a short haired, well built lad who, under normal circumstances is considered by society as half man, half boy. Not yet dry behind the ears and just old enough to buy a round of drinks but old enough to die for his country – and for you. He’s not particularly keen on hard work but he’d rather be grafting in Afghanistan than unemployed in the UK. He recently left comprehensive school where he was probably an average student, played some form of sport, drove a ten year old rust bucket, and knew a girl that either broke up with him when he left, or swore to be waiting when he returns home. He moves easily to rock and roll or hip-hop or to the rattle of a 7.62mm machine gun.

    He is about a stone lighter than when he left home because he is working or fighting from dawn to dusk and well beyond. He has trouble spelling, so letter writing is a pain for him, but he can strip a rifle in 25 seconds and reassemble it in the dark. He can recite every detail of a machine gun or grenade launcher and use either effectively if he has to. He digs trenches and latrines without the aid of machines and can apply first aid like a professional paramedic. He can march until he is told to stop, or stay dead still until he is told to move.


    He obeys orders instantly and without hesitation but he is not without a rebellious spirit or a sense of personal dignity. He is confidently self-sufficient. He has two sets of uniform with him: he washes one and wears the other. He keeps his water bottle full and his feet dry. He sometimes forgets to brush his teeth, but never forgets to clean his rifle. He can cook his own meals, mend his own clothes and fix his own hurts. If you are thirsty, he'll share his water with you; if you are hungry, his food is your food. He'll even share his life-saving ammunition with you in the heat of a firefight if you run low.

    He has learned to use his hands like weapons and regards his weapon as an extension of his own hands. He can save your life or he can take it, because that is his job - it's what a soldier does. He often works twice as long and hard as a civilian, draws half the pay and has nowhere to spend it, and can still find black ironic humour in it all. There's an old saying in the British Army: 'If you can't take a joke, you shouldn't have joined!'


    He has seen more suffering and death than he should have in his short lifetime. He has wept in public and in private, for friends who have fallen in combat and he is unashamed to show it or admit it. He feels every bugle note of the 'Last Post' or 'Sunset' vibrate through his body while standing rigidly to attention. He's not afraid to 'Bollock' anyone who shows disrespect when the Regimental Colours are on display or the National Anthem is played; yet in an odd twist, he would defend anyone's right to be an individual. Just as with generations of young people before him, he is paying the price for our freedom. Clean shaven and baby faced he may be, but be prepared to defend yourself if you treat him like a kid.
    He is the latest in a long thin line of British Fighting Men who have kept this country free for hundreds of years. He asks for nothing from us except our respect, friendship and understanding. We may not like what he does, but sometimes he doesn't like it either - he just has it to do. Remember him always, for he has earned our respect and admiration with his blood.

    Now we even have brave young women putting themselves in harm's way, doing their part in this tradition of going to war when our nation's politicians call on us to do so.

    When you read this, please stop for a moment and if you are so inclined, feel free to say a prayer for our troops in the trouble spots of the world.

    Please, next year, wear your poppy with pride - we will remember them
  • crimsondynamo
    crimsondynamo Posts: 246
    The nationalist-Irish don't like the poppy because they view it as subsidising the foreign military subjugation of 6 of their counties. The unionist-irish do like the poppy for the opposite reason. Boy-billy aka Billy-boy (from William of Orange), is the name for a Rangers fan. His opinion that the poppy ought to be compulsory will stem from a tribal standpoint on the the irish issue.

    John Snow of channel 4 news refuses to wear a poppy because of what he calls "poppy fascism".

    I always wear a poppy, but I am totally oblivious to whether anyone else is. Live and let live I say.
  • knedlicky
    knedlicky Posts: 3,097
    Those who like to wear a poppy for a few days for servicemen who volunteered to fight and thus accepted being killed, should maybe wear poppies all the year round, for those who weren’t servicemen but were killed in wars by servicemen of both sides, whether in England/Germany during WW2 or, nowadays, in Iraq/Afghanistan.
    There’s more the tragedy and casualties of war.

    I don’t wear the poppy, but I have been to commemorative services on Remembrance Day and have visited military cemeteries, including on the Continent, so it’s not that I want to avoid the sadness. But the wearing of a poppy I find such a quick-and-easy, superficial thing.
    I wonder how many of those poppy wearers in the public eye, or on this board, have put themselves out to go to a service and mix with surviving servicemen (so a bit more effort than buying a poppy and maybe involving taking time off work).

    Or whether any have ever visited one of those huge WW1 or WW2 military cemeteries? Looking at the gravestones, and realising the short fate of so many men, I think you mainly conclude ‘what a terrible waste’, and respect doesn’t enter your head because you realise they had no choice.
  • rally200
    rally200 Posts: 646
    halfmanhalfsnookermachine wrote:
    Hi all

    I have read the posts on this forum with interest and fascination. Having spent 20 years in HM forces (and still counting) , seen all sorts of sights - some of which i would not wish on anyone, all I will say is this.

    Reagrdless of your views on war, conflict, the Government, Tony Blair, Gordon Borown et al, the humble British squaddie, sailor or aiman,whether 1914 - 17, 40 -45 or of a later later vintage, deserves one day a year where everyone spends a moment - two minutes to be precise - just to reflect and say thank you...... We may not like what he does, but sometimes he doesn't like it either - he just has it to do. Remember him always, for he has earned our respect and admiration with his blood......

    quote]

    Well said , agree with every word of your post
  • knedlicky
    knedlicky Posts: 3,097
    halfmanhalfsnookermachine wrote:
    He obeys orders instantly and without hesitation ... He sometimes forgets to brush his teeth, but never forgets to clean his rifle ...
    ... We may not like what he does, but sometimes he doesn't like it either - he just has it to do
    :(
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,665
    halfmanhalfsnookermachine wrote:
    Hi all

    I have read the posts on this forum with interest and fascination. Having spent 20 years in HM forces (and still counting) , seen all sorts of sights - some of which i would not wish on anyone, all I will say is this.

    Reagrdless of your views on war, conflict, the Government, Tony Blair, Gordon Borown et al, the humble British squaddie, sailor or aiman,whether 1914 - 17, 40 -45 or of a later later vintage, deserves one day a year where everyone spends a moment - two minutes to be precise - just to reflect and say thank you.

    If you need still convincing, someone much more eloquent than me wrote this:

    The average British soldier is 19 years old ... he is a short haired, well built lad who, under normal circumstances is considered by society as half man, half boy. Not yet dry behind the ears and just old enough to buy a round of drinks but old enough to die for his country – and for you. He’s not particularly keen on hard work but he’d rather be grafting in Afghanistan than unemployed in the UK. He recently left comprehensive school where he was probably an average student, played some form of sport, drove a ten year old rust bucket, and knew a girl that either broke up with him when he left, or swore to be waiting when he returns home. He moves easily to rock and roll or hip-hop or to the rattle of a 7.62mm machine gun.

    He is about a stone lighter than when he left home because he is working or fighting from dawn to dusk and well beyond. He has trouble spelling, so letter writing is a pain for him, but he can strip a rifle in 25 seconds and reassemble it in the dark. He can recite every detail of a machine gun or grenade launcher and use either effectively if he has to. He digs trenches and latrines without the aid of machines and can apply first aid like a professional paramedic. He can march until he is told to stop, or stay dead still until he is told to move.


    He obeys orders instantly and without hesitation but he is not without a rebellious spirit or a sense of personal dignity. He is confidently self-sufficient. He has two sets of uniform with him: he washes one and wears the other. He keeps his water bottle full and his feet dry. He sometimes forgets to brush his teeth, but never forgets to clean his rifle. He can cook his own meals, mend his own clothes and fix his own hurts. If you are thirsty, he'll share his water with you; if you are hungry, his food is your food. He'll even share his life-saving ammunition with you in the heat of a firefight if you run low.

    He has learned to use his hands like weapons and regards his weapon as an extension of his own hands. He can save your life or he can take it, because that is his job - it's what a soldier does. He often works twice as long and hard as a civilian, draws half the pay and has nowhere to spend it, and can still find black ironic humour in it all. There's an old saying in the British Army: 'If you can't take a joke, you shouldn't have joined!'


    He has seen more suffering and death than he should have in his short lifetime. He has wept in public and in private, for friends who have fallen in combat and he is unashamed to show it or admit it. He feels every bugle note of the 'Last Post' or 'Sunset' vibrate through his body while standing rigidly to attention. He's not afraid to 'Bollock' anyone who shows disrespect when the Regimental Colours are on display or the National Anthem is played; yet in an odd twist, he would defend anyone's right to be an individual. Just as with generations of young people before him, he is paying the price for our freedom. Clean shaven and baby faced he may be, but be prepared to defend yourself if you treat him like a kid.
    He is the latest in a long thin line of British Fighting Men who have kept this country free for hundreds of years. He asks for nothing from us except our respect, friendship and understanding. We may not like what he does, but sometimes he doesn't like it either - he just has it to do. Remember him always, for he has earned our respect and admiration with his blood.

    Now we even have brave young women putting themselves in harm's way, doing their part in this tradition of going to war when our nation's politicians call on us to do so.

    When you read this, please stop for a moment and if you are so inclined, feel free to say a prayer for our troops in the trouble spots of the world.

    Please, next year, wear your poppy with pride - we will remember them

    Well put, thanks from an ex Sapper.
  • rally200
    rally200 Posts: 646
    knedlicky wrote:
    halfmanhalfsnookermachine wrote:
    He obeys orders instantly and without hesitation ... He sometimes forgets to brush his teeth, but never forgets to clean his rifle ...
    ... We may not like what he does, but sometimes he doesn't like it either - he just has it to do
    :(

    or maybe soldiers should take a vote of approval before going into action?

    we should remember that in the clear-cut, just war 1939-45, it was professional soldiers, sailors, & airmen (+TA & auxillaries) who held the line (and saved the free world) in 1939-40.

    Whether you agree with the politics behind Afghanistan or not, we need ourwell trained and disciplined standing army
  • Porgy
    Porgy Posts: 4,525
    markwalker wrote:
    Ive only just read this thread anf frankly some of the attitudes shown here are appaling.
    .

    How can personal opinions freely given and genuinely felt be appaling. I wish people would work to try to understand why others feel a certain way instead of stomping about saying "it's appalling" etc.

    Very sad. :cry:

    Just watched Eastwood's Flags of Our Fathers and I think it says everything I feel better than I can express. Plenty of reflection involved in watching that - I recommend it even though it is about yanks - some things are just universal.
  • finchy
    finchy Posts: 6,686
    halfmanhalfsnookermachine wrote:
    He is the latest in a long thin line of British Fighting Men who have kept this country free for hundreds of years.

    This country's wealthy may have been free, but ordinary people definitely weren't, and for centuries the army(ies) took the side of the oppressors against the masses. I'm not using this to slag off today's soldiers, just pointing out that fighting for freedom and democracy in the British Isles could only be used to justify war in our very recent past.

    Definitely wearing my poppy every year until I die, though. :wink:
  • iainment
    iainment Posts: 992
    halfmanhalfsnookermachine wrote:
    Hi all

    He's not afraid to 'Bollock' anyone who shows disrespect when the Regimental Colours are on display or the National Anthem is played; yet in an odd twist, he would defend anyone's right to be an individual.

    Not my experience as a teenager in Windsor, regularly harassed and attacked for having long hair, especially when a new lot were rotated in to carry out castle guard duties.
    Old hippies don't die, they just lie low until the laughter stops and their time comes round again.
    Joseph Gallivan
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,665
    iainment wrote:
    halfmanhalfsnookermachine wrote:
    Hi all

    He's not afraid to 'Bollock' anyone who shows disrespect when the Regimental Colours are on display or the National Anthem is played; yet in an odd twist, he would defend anyone's right to be an individual.

    Not my experience as a teenager in Windsor, regularly harassed and attacked for having long hair, especially when a new lot were rotated in to carry out castle guard duties.

    Picky.
  • iainment
    iainment Posts: 992
    dmclite wrote:
    iainment wrote:
    halfmanhalfsnookermachine wrote:
    Hi all

    He's not afraid to 'Bollock' anyone who shows disrespect when the Regimental Colours are on display or the National Anthem is played; yet in an odd twist, he would defend anyone's right to be an individual.

    Not my experience as a teenager in Windsor, regularly harassed and attacked for having long hair, especially when a new lot were rotated in to carry out castle guard duties.

    Picky.

    No, accurate, not idealising.
    Old hippies don't die, they just lie low until the laughter stops and their time comes round again.
    Joseph Gallivan
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,665
    iainment wrote:
    dmclite wrote:
    iainment wrote:
    halfmanhalfsnookermachine wrote:
    Hi all

    He's not afraid to 'Bollock' anyone who shows disrespect when the Regimental Colours are on display or the National Anthem is played; yet in an odd twist, he would defend anyone's right to be an individual.

    Not my experience as a teenager in Windsor, regularly harassed and attacked for having long hair, especially when a new lot were rotated in to carry out castle guard duties.

    Picky.

    No, accurate, not idealising.

    Probably wasn't your hair they may not have liked....... :roll:
  • iainment
    iainment Posts: 992
    dmclite wrote:
    iainment wrote:
    dmclite wrote:
    iainment wrote:
    halfmanhalfsnookermachine wrote:
    Hi all

    He's not afraid to 'Bollock' anyone who shows disrespect when the Regimental Colours are on display or the National Anthem is played; yet in an odd twist, he would defend anyone's right to be an individual.

    Not my experience as a teenager in Windsor, regularly harassed and attacked for having long hair, especially when a new lot were rotated in to carry out castle guard duties.

    Picky.

    No, accurate, not idealising.

    Probably wasn't your hair they may not have liked....... :roll:

    No they didn't ask my opinion about the poppy just started homophobic abuse in the main. The fact I was usually with a girlfriend didn't seem to register.
    and most long hairs in the area went through the same crap from them.
    Old hippies don't die, they just lie low until the laughter stops and their time comes round again.
    Joseph Gallivan
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,665
    iainment wrote:
    dmclite wrote:
    iainment wrote:
    dmclite wrote:
    iainment wrote:
    halfmanhalfsnookermachine wrote:
    Hi all

    He's not afraid to 'Bollock' anyone who shows disrespect when the Regimental Colours are on display or the National Anthem is played; yet in an odd twist, he would defend anyone's right to be an individual.

    Not my experience as a teenager in Windsor, regularly harassed and attacked for having long hair, especially when a new lot were rotated in to carry out castle guard duties.

    Picky.

    No, accurate, not idealising.

    Probably wasn't your hair they may not have liked....... :roll:

    No they didn't ask my opinion about the poppy just started homophobic abuse in the main. The fact I was usually with a girlfriend didn't seem to register.
    and most long hairs in the area went through the same crap from them.

    Were the barbers not open in Windsor then ?
  • iainment
    iainment Posts: 992
    dmclite wrote:
    iainment wrote:
    dmclite wrote:
    iainment wrote:
    dmclite wrote:
    iainment wrote:
    halfmanhalfsnookermachine wrote:
    Hi all

    He's not afraid to 'Bollock' anyone who shows disrespect when the Regimental Colours are on display or the National Anthem is played; yet in an odd twist, he would defend anyone's right to be an individual.

    Not my experience as a teenager in Windsor, regularly harassed and attacked for having long hair, especially when a new lot were rotated in to carry out castle guard duties.

    Picky.

    No, accurate, not idealising.

    Probably wasn't your hair they may not have liked....... :roll:

    No they didn't ask my opinion about the poppy just started homophobic abuse in the main. The fact I was usually with a girlfriend didn't seem to register.
    and most long hairs in the area went through the same crap from them.

    Were the barbers not open in Windsor then ?

    I wouldn't have known, man.
    Old hippies don't die, they just lie low until the laughter stops and their time comes round again.
    Joseph Gallivan
  • NGale
    NGale Posts: 1,866
    Nope never wear one until the day itself (and that's only because I'm on parade with my cadets)

    I always give money to the cause though.
    Officers don't run, it's undignified and panics the men
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,665
    iainment wrote:
    dmclite wrote:
    iainment wrote:
    dmclite wrote:
    iainment wrote:
    dmclite wrote:
    iainment wrote:
    halfmanhalfsnookermachine wrote:
    Hi all

    He's not afraid to 'Bollock' anyone who shows disrespect when the Regimental Colours are on display or the National Anthem is played; yet in an odd twist, he would defend anyone's right to be an individual.

    Not my experience as a teenager in Windsor, regularly harassed and attacked for having long hair, especially when a new lot were rotated in to carry out castle guard duties.

    Picky.

    No, accurate, not idealising.

    Probably wasn't your hair they may not have liked....... :roll:

    No they didn't ask my opinion about the poppy just started homophobic abuse in the main. The fact I was usually with a girlfriend didn't seem to register.
    and most long hairs in the area went through the same crap from them.

    Were the barbers not open in Windsor then ?

    I wouldn't have known, man.

    There must have been barbers open. A hippy from Plumstead, whatever next ?

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