The poppy
Comments
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nasahapley wrote:I simply don't understand how not wearing a poppy means you are not respecting those who have fought for Britain. Respect is something you either feel or you don't and is unrelated to whether you spend a quid to display a cheap bit of plastic on your breast. I bet there are a good many people who wear poppies not because of any deep respect for servicemen but because they feel compelled to by certain newspapers, and don't really think too much about the sacrifices made at all.
I've given what for me is a fair bit of money to the poppy appeal and HFH but I don't wear a poppy; isn't it infinitely more important to actually try and understand and appreciate the sacrifices that have been made for us rather than make sure our respect is conspicuous? All these attempts to bully people into wearing a poppy is rather ironic since the nazis themselves were also quite keen on making people wear certain symbols (stars of david, pink triangles etc). So frankly I don't care a jot for those who think that by not wearing a poppy I can't have respect for the fallen or that I should be ashamed, because you're bang wrong.
I think lumping the Nazi's and the final solution and poppy wearing pressure (real or imagined) is a bit of a leap. :roll:0 -
dmclite wrote:nasahapley wrote:I simply don't understand how not wearing a poppy means you are not respecting those who have fought for Britain. Respect is something you either feel or you don't and is unrelated to whether you spend a quid to display a cheap bit of plastic on your breast. I bet there are a good many people who wear poppies not because of any deep respect for servicemen but because they feel compelled to by certain newspapers, and don't really think too much about the sacrifices made at all.
I've given what for me is a fair bit of money to the poppy appeal and HFH but I don't wear a poppy; isn't it infinitely more important to actually try and understand and appreciate the sacrifices that have been made for us rather than make sure our respect is conspicuous? All these attempts to bully people into wearing a poppy is rather ironic since the nazis themselves were also quite keen on making people wear certain symbols (stars of david, pink triangles etc). So frankly I don't care a jot for those who think that by not wearing a poppy I can't have respect for the fallen or that I should be ashamed, because you're bang wrong.
I think lumping the Nazi's and the final solution and poppy wearing pressure (real or imagined) is a bit of a leap. :roll:
OMG I knew someone would say that. I'd be interested to hear a reply to the substansive part of my argument rather than a reply to something I clearly wasn't implying.0 -
nasahapley wrote:dmclite wrote:nasahapley wrote:I simply don't understand how not wearing a poppy means you are not respecting those who have fought for Britain. Respect is something you either feel or you don't and is unrelated to whether you spend a quid to display a cheap bit of plastic on your breast. I bet there are a good many people who wear poppies not because of any deep respect for servicemen but because they feel compelled to by certain newspapers, and don't really think too much about the sacrifices made at all.
I've given what for me is a fair bit of money to the poppy appeal and HFH but I don't wear a poppy; isn't it infinitely more important to actually try and understand and appreciate the sacrifices that have been made for us rather than make sure our respect is conspicuous? All these attempts to bully people into wearing a poppy is rather ironic since the nazis themselves were also quite keen on making people wear certain symbols (stars of david, pink triangles etc). So frankly I don't care a jot for those who think that by not wearing a poppy I can't have respect for the fallen or that I should be ashamed, because you're bang wrong.
I think lumping the Nazi's and the final solution and poppy wearing pressure (real or imagined) is a bit of a leap. :roll:
OMG I knew someone would say that. I'd be interested to hear a reply to the substansive part of my argument rather than a reply to something I clearly wasn't implying.
Seems you are clairvoyant as well, are there no end to your talents. PMSL. :roll:0 -
I have to agree with nasahapley
I suppose you could argue it is disrespectful to veterans and the like actually wearing a poppy. All the sacrifice they made and people will waste their time and money on worthless bits of plastic when those could be better spent on actually helping people. (of course the poppy probably cost about 0.00001p)
But then there is the publicity of the poppy - how many people would even know this charity existed if there were no poppies ?
Not saying that this is right or wrong - just a different view I suppose (which fortunately we can express).0 -
volvicspar wrote:I have to agree with nasahapley
I suppose you could argue it is disrespectful to veterans and the like actually wearing a poppy. All the sacrifice they made and people will waste their time and money on worthless bits of plastic when those could be better spent on actually helping people. (of course the poppy probably cost about 0.00001p)
But then there is the publicity of the poppy - how many people would even know this charity existed if there were no poppies ?
Not saying that this is right or wrong - just a different view I suppose (which fortunately we can express).
Fair one mate.0 -
volvicspar wrote:. All the sacrifice they made and people will waste their time and money on worthless bits of plastic when those could be better spent on actually helping people. (of course the poppy probably cost about 0.00001p)
I keep the same poppy every year, and put a donation in the tin. No point being wasteful.0 -
Seems to me that there is a lot of people here arguing over the symbolism of the poppy and forgetting about the charitable aspect that the Royal British Legion sells them for in the first place.
In the 6-7 months that 19 Light Brigage were deployed in Afghanistan, over 900 soldiers were injured, over a hundred of those came home without limbs and organs that they had arrived with and over 70 did not come home at all. I have personally had to work out how much money the family of a KIA gets, it ran to just over £400,000. That included over £150,000 from a private policy, NOT government funded. The balance was largely from pension payments and continuation of the deceased salary for 6 months. Not a lot when you consider that a wife and kids have just lost their home (Married Quarter) and long term income not to mention husband and father. The injured guys are lucky if they get more than the 6 months and 10 days worth of Operational Allowance at £13.08 per day plus whatever personal accident insurance they took out pre-deployment. How does a family manage when the bread winner loses both his legs above the knee, his right arm, his left hand, his eyesight and part of his genitalia? I personally don't have clue, but I do know there is one family out there right now struggling to work out the answer to that because they have to. It's those guys AND their families who rely on the RBL to help and the only way they can do that it through the funds raised from the Poppy Appeal. If you don't like wearing the poppy, or what it symbolises, then just donate money to the RBL, the ABF or H4H or similar organisation. Here in NI, its an accepted fact that most Republicans and Nationalists won't wear a poppy because of the association with the British Army, considered very much an enemy force for long. I respect their right in this regard in much the same way as I'm quite sure they'd respect the fact that I won't wear anything commemorating PIRA dead, like the Hunger Strikers et al.
I don't want this to become political, but it seems to me that a few here are simply shrugging their sloping shoulders and saying "I didn't send them to Afghan, so it's not my fault!" Actually, if you voted Labour, technically you did.0 -
Personally I think everybody should be forced to buy a Poppy.........and then give thanks that they weren't forced to enlist. (tongue in cheek, by the way)...go on, just buy the Poppy and stop being so bloody silly.To disagree with three-fourths of the British public is one of the first requisites of sanity - Oscar Wilde0
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I don’t wear a poppy. Although I’ve nothing against the idea of the poppy in itself, one big reason for me against buying/wearing one is the PC-type conformity expected of everyone nowadays, as exhibited by the wearing of it by newsreaders, Match of the Day commentators, anyone in the public eye being interviewed, etc. Also as exhibited by some of the opinions of posters here.
And, as teagar says, it seems to me there is certainly a jingoistic element in it in the UK. It should be a much more private thing.
Apparently the money raised is used by the British Legion to help disabled, and wives and families who lost husbands and fathers who were in the forces during the different wars. I’ve nothing against this either, but I think, at least for those wars where conscription was obligatory (part of WW1 and all of WW2, maybe Suez too?), it should really be governments who support those disabled, and wives and families.
I had 6 close relatives who fought in WW2, but by the 1970s onward, despite being ex-servicemen, all of them refused to ever buy/wear a poppy. When I was old enough to ask why not (in the 80s-90s), they all told me they wouldn’t buy one because they felt what had once been a valid cause had, albeit perhaps inadvertently, become to be used as a piece of political propaganda to help governments avoid the issue of helping ex-servicemen and their families, and become to be used as a piece of political propaganda to help promote the military cause.
Respecting and honouring servicemen who lost their lives because of the decisions of politicians when conscription existed is one thing, but after then I’m not so sure, because anyone who voluntary enlists should know the risks of the job and of the dangers of being subject to the whims, mistakes and biases of politicians. Why should one respect and honour a servicemen any more than anyone else who does a basic job for the good of the community?
(Before anyone starts to think I might have no links to the forces, although I’ve never been a soldier or sent to a crisis area, by my job I’ve been very closely associated with the military for years and have had friends and acquaintances who have been everywhere from Vietnam to Kosovo and Iraq/Afghanistan, so know first hand of their experiences and losses, and know some who returned disabled as consequence of their 'tour of duty'.)0 -
Yes. From 4 Nov until 12 Nov. I even raced CycloCross wearing one today.
As much as a charity donation it's a statement of support and appreciation for those who have died in the name of this country since the First World War.0 -
Respecting and honouring servicemen who lost their lives because of the decisions of politicians when conscription existed is one thing, but after then I’m not so sure, because anyone who voluntary enlists should know the risks of the job and of the dangers of being subject to the whims, mistakes and biases of politicians. Why should one respect and honour a servicemen any more than anyone else who does a basic job for the good of the community?
Nice. :roll:
I'm actually speechless.0 -
knedlicky wrote:I don’t wear a poppy. Although I’ve nothing against the idea of the poppy in itself, one big reason for me against buying/wearing one is the PC-type conformity expected of everyone nowadays, as exhibited by the wearing of it by newsreaders, Match of the Day commentators, anyone in the public eye being interviewed, etc. Also as exhibited by some of the opinions of posters here.
And, as teagar says, it seems to me there is certainly a jingoistic element in it in the UK. It should be a much more private thing.
Apparently the money raised is used by the British Legion to help disabled, and wives and families who lost husbands and fathers who were in the forces during the different wars. I’ve nothing against this either, but I think, at least for those wars where conscription was obligatory (part of WW1 and all of WW2, maybe Suez too?), it should really be governments who support those disabled, and wives and families.
I had 6 close relatives who fought in WW2, but by the 1970s onward, despite being ex-servicemen, all of them refused to ever buy/wear a poppy. When I was old enough to ask why not (in the 80s-90s), they all told me they wouldn’t buy one because they felt what had once been a valid cause had, albeit perhaps inadvertently, become to be used as a piece of political propaganda to help governments avoid the issue of helping ex-servicemen and their families, and become to be used as a piece of political propaganda to help promote the military cause.
Respecting and honouring servicemen who lost their lives because of the decisions of politicians when conscription existed is one thing, but after then I’m not so sure, because anyone who voluntary enlists should know the risks of the job and of the dangers of being subject to the whims, mistakes and biases of politicians. Why should one respect and honour a servicemen any more than anyone else who does a basic job for the good of the community?
(Before anyone starts to think I might have no links to the forces, although I’ve never been a soldier or sent to a crisis area, by my job I’ve been very closely associated with the military for years and have had friends and acquaintances who have been everywhere from Vietnam to Kosovo and Iraq/Afghanistan, so know first hand of their experiences and losses, and know some who returned disabled as consequence of their 'tour of duty'.)
I think you'll find thats second hand matey, being there is first hand.
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If people think - 'I don't need to wear a poppy to show my support' - then fair enough, but I think it's worth it. As a teacher, some kids do ask 'Why do people wear poppies?', and that's reason enough for me to pin one on.
Everyone posting on here knows the significance of the poppy, but as time goes on this awareness will diminish if it's not kept going.0 -
knedlicky wrote:I don’t wear a poppy. Although I’ve nothing against the idea of the poppy in itself, one big reason for me against buying/wearing one is the PC-type conformity expected of everyone nowadays, as exhibited by the wearing of it by newsreaders, Match of the Day commentators, anyone in the public eye being interviewed, etc.
TV presenters have been wearing poppys for as long as I have been watching telly - ie, well over 40 years. It isn't a modern phenomenon.knedlicky wrote:Why should one respect and honour a servicemen any more than anyone else who does a basic job for the good of the community?
Because it is rare to see local refuse collectors or traffic wardens killed or maimed in the line of duty, that's why.
Like DMC, I'm actually quite suprised by the level of ignorance contained in your post...0 -
pabloweaver wrote:you wear a poppy to acknowledge the fact you can have the liberty to come on here and argue about it ...
it has nothing to do with the rights and wrongs of goverments but the lives and losses of generations.
the politics are irrelevant , the dead are not .
Celtic fans take note.
You also have the liberty not to wear a poppy don't you? Isn't that what freedom is - people of different beliefs accepting the rights of others to sometimes express beliefs that might offend some groups.
As soon as poppy wearing is compulsory then you might as well have not taken part in any war to defend freedoms.
Pip pip.Old hippies don't die, they just lie low until the laughter stops and their time comes round again.
Joseph Gallivan0 -
I always wear mine but compulsion is pointless. The whole Daily Mail thing about trying to pressurise Man Utd and Liverpool into wearing poppies is OTT, if the person isn't wearing the poppy by choice then it isn't fulfilling it's purpose.
Slightly off topic but is there a chance that the Legion will lose donations with the excellent work that Help the Heroes has been doing or are the two linked?0 -
Pross wrote:Slightly off topic but is there a chance that the Legion will lose donations with the excellent work that Help the Heroes has been doing or are the two linked?
Quite likely. H4H has captured the public imagination as being modern and fit for purpose, concnetrating mainly on the wounded from recent and current Ops such as Iraq and Afghan. The Army Benevolent Fund and the Legion haven't been able to move with the times quite so easily; I'm not sure why. I know for a fact that the ABF has seen it's income stream drop significantly due to the diversion of donations to H4H.
Sorry, Back to the topic....0 -
I do not know about you but during the silence I tend to remember not only those in the armed services that gave their lives in the course of duty but also the those in the police, Fire brigade, RNLI , etc. who paid the ultimate price. Volunteer as against conscript is irelevant.0
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TheBoyBilly wrote:Personally I think everybody should be forced to buy a Poppy.........and then give thanks that they weren't forced to enlist. (tongue in cheek, by the way)...go on, just buy the Poppy and stop being so bloody silly.
+1 Im glad I have the choice to wear one or not (I do), better than having to wear a swastika which we might well have had to do but the sacrifice of others. I have read some of the letters my Grandfather sent to my Grandmother from France (insert Im fecking proud emoticon here).0 -
I don't wear one anymore.
Used to be quite angry when I saw people without them but after Iraq and the behaviour of criminals like Tony Blair who turn up every year at the cenotaph I decided I wouldn't wear one.
The whole 'Heroes' thing gets flung about like a cliche' - a bit like WMD a few years ago - and makes me uncomfortable.
I don't see how they are heroes? They are just people being exploited by scumbag politicians in our country who don't give a sh*t about them. How many people in Iraq have lost their lives since 2003 and for what?0 -
grantus wrote:I don't wear one anymore.
Used to be quite angry when I saw people without them but after Iraq and the behaviour of criminals like Tony Blair who turn up every year at the cenotaph I decided I wouldn't wear one.
The whole 'Heroes' thing gets flung about like a cliche' - a bit like WMD a few years ago - and makes me uncomfortable.
I don't see how they are heroes? They are just people being exploited by scumbag politicians in our country who don't give a sh*t about them. How many people in Iraq have lost their lives since 2003 and for what?
So because soldiers are being exploited by politicians (hardly a new phenomenon) you took the decision not to wear an outward sign of rememberance for those who died in previous conflicts :? Your choice I guess!0 -
If we cannot put our hand in our pocket to remember the ultimate sacrifices of others then what have we become?
I always wear one..0 -
I'm not sure if I am (I probably am), but there is a load of sanctimoniacs out there at the moment.
People should do what's right for their beliefs and accept that there can be different takes on this.
sanctimonious
holier-than-thou, pietistic, pietistical, pharisaic, pharisaical, sanctimonious, self-righteous
Pip pip.Old hippies don't die, they just lie low until the laughter stops and their time comes round again.
Joseph Gallivan0 -
feltkuota wrote:If we cannot put our hand in our pocket to remember the ultimate sacrifices of others then what have we become?
I always wear one..
You don't need to pay in order to have respect for servicemens' sacrifices, and there isn't an admission fee for the remembrance club. I'd encourage anyone to donate to veterans charities and I do so myself, and if you want to wear a poppy then great, but the more self appointed moral guardians try to browbeat me into wearing one the less likely I am to do so, especially if amongst those people are hacks from the Daily sodding Mail!0 -
Nasahapley.
You clearly saw in that message something that wasn't there.. Certainly didn't say you should wear one, just said that I do.
Other than that I think we agree about donating.0 -
I have my own private reflections on the sacrifice of those who died in WW1 and WW2 but I have never worn a poopy unless compelled to do so by some form of authority (school).0
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GavH wrote:I don't want this to become political, but it seems to me that a few here are simply shrugging their sloping shoulders and saying "I didn't send them to Afghan, so it's not my fault!" Actually, if you voted Labour, technically you did.
Not at all - it wasn;t in Labour's manifesto and there wasn't a vote in parliament. When Blair disconnected from the democratic process after 9-11 he became a war criminal not an elected representative in this matter.
BTW - I didn't vote vote for Labour - so have no axe to grind here.0 -
grantus wrote:I don't wear one anymore.
Used to be quite angry when I saw people without them but after Iraq and the behaviour of criminals like Tony Blair who turn up every year at the cenotaph I decided I wouldn't wear one.
The whole 'Heroes' thing gets flung about like a cliche' - a bit like WMD a few years ago - and makes me uncomfortable.
I don't see how they are heroes? They are just people being exploited by scumbag politicians in our country who don't give a sh*t about them. How many people in Iraq have lost their lives since 2003 and for what?
WMD's were a lie, thats pretty much commonly accepted. On the other hand soldiers doing outstanding jobs day in day out and going further to save mates is heroic and extraodinary. You have teenage lads who are stepping up to the mark and going above and beyond a lot of peoples comprehension every day, I am in awe of them and bt wearing the poppy I honour them and respect the fallen. No political agenda at all.0 -
I find the whole 'hero' thing patronising. A bit like 'The War on Terror'0
