The poppy

Porgy

If our soldiers are heroes then so are the people fighting on the other side...but in the black and white world of the tabloids this is not acceptable. Therefore let's stop with the heroes crap now eh?

Anonymous

Porgy wrote:

If our soldiers are heroes then so are the people fighting on the other side...but in the black and white world of the tabloids this is not acceptable. Therefore let's stop with the heroes crap now eh?

Don't really agree but you make an excellent point. One persons hero is anothers enemy/terrorist. We have no business in Afghanistan and I have trouble seeing other perspectives sometimes due to the time I spent as a soldier.

grantus

I should clarify I don't think it's the soldiers' fault that the 'hero' thing gets thrown around and I used to ALWAYS dig friends up for not wearing a poppy but I think it's disgusting the way ex-service personnel are treated. In fact, not just ex-services but currently serving - not enough equipment, relatives having to pay to send packages out to them, sub-standard housing that would be condemned if it were any other landlord, the list goes on.

I hate the way people like Tony Blair and Gordon Brown have the affront to wear a poppy-they've hi-jacked it and I don't like to wear it now - these folk are responsible for laying waste to Iraq - soldiers who refused to go to Iraq on moral grounds could be rightly called heroes, in my opinion.

Porgy

For years I believed that the poppies were about commemorating the dead who fought and defended this country and others in two world wars.

Now the poppy symbol is being constantly linked to the current illegal wars for oil where there is no honour. It should not be linked in this way - or there should be another symbol which is not used cynically and politically.

IMO a better tribute to the dead in recent conflicts are the lyrics from Elvis Costello's "Oliver's Army" - never has this song been so relevant....never have so many working class lads with no future died for so few oil executives and share-holders' profits.

jedster

I'd like to explain the reasons why I wear a poppy. Obviously people are free to make there own decisiosn about these things but I'd really like people who don't wear one to consider these arguments:

1. the personal. My grandfather was at the Battle of Jutland as a 16 year old midshipman. He commanded destroyers on convoy escourt duty and later carriers in WW2. He commanded a carrier in the Korean war. My grandmother lost her father in WW1. When I think about the number of their friends and colleagues who were killed or injured over decades to protect the freedoms that we enjoy today I find it incredibly humbling. I know how important it was them to pay their respects to the fallen. The least I can do is continue to pay respect. Lest we forget and all that.

2. The compassionate. Put yourself in the shoes of an elderly lady who lost their husband in WW2 or a serviceman who lost their mate in Afganistan. Imagine how they feel when they see people with and without poppies at this time of year. Wearing a poppy visibly acknowledges and sympathises with their loss. That is a genuinely good and humane thing to do. I know my grandmother found it hurtful when people didn't wear poppies.

3. The political. I believe we need armed forces and we need them to do what the government asks them to do. Arguments about the merits of particular wars should be directed at the people who make the decisions - politicians. I feel lucky that I have never been asked to fight for my country and that other people are prepared to do it. Most of us live an incredibly pampered life in this country, in part we are able to do so because of sacrifices made by our armed forces. The only sacrifice we are asked to make is pay our tax. I find the contrast with blokes coming back minus limbs pretty humbling. Really, what is the appropriate response to that - a) to express gratitude and sympathy b) not bother because afterall no one forced them to join the army? I don't see how expressing sympathy for our casualties implies a lack of sympathy for other casualties of war. The poppy appeal may raise money for our casualties but most 11 Nov ceremonies explicitly remember all the victims of war.

I guess my main point is that not wearing a poppy is hurtful to some people who don't deserve to be hurt. Wearing a poppy does not imply support for any particular war. apathy is probably the least approproate response.

Cheers,
J

on the road

I never wear a poppy, but that dosn't make me disrespectful.

markwalker

Ive only just read this thread anf frankly some of the attitudes shown here are appaling.

Wether you believe that politicians use it for gain, wether you believe the governemtn should pay, wether you believe that you wont conform as some sort of purile statement of individuality or free thought doesnt alter the facts.

Wearing a poppy shows to the men and women of the armed forces and their families that there sacrifices have value. Wear one to say thank you, its not PC its simply good manners.

grantus

The point i was trying to make is i'm not grateful for what the British Army is doing in Iraq and Afghanistan - it doesn't mean I don't sympathise with injured soldiers and their families but I can't see how you can call them heroes?

Crapaud

jedster wrote:

I'd like to explain the reasons why I wear a poppy. Obviously people are free to make there own decisiosn about these things but I'd really like people who don't wear one to consider these arguments:

1. the personal. My grandfather was at the Battle of Jutland as a 16 year old midshipman. He commanded destroyers on convoy escourt duty and later carriers in WW2. He commanded a carrier in the Korean war. My grandmother lost her father in WW1. When I think about the number of their friends and colleagues who were killed or injured over decades to protect the freedoms that we enjoy today I find it incredibly humbling. I know how important it was them to pay their respects to the fallen. The least I can do is continue to pay respect. Lest we forget and all that.

2. The compassionate. Put yourself in the shoes of an elderly lady who lost their husband in WW2 or a serviceman who lost their mate in Afganistan. Imagine how they feel when they see people with and without poppies at this time of year. Wearing a poppy visibly acknowledges and sympathises with their loss. That is a genuinely good and humane thing to do. I know my grandmother found it hurtful when people didn't wear poppies.

3. The political. I believe we need armed forces and we need them to do what the government asks them to do. Arguments about the merits of particular wars should be directed at the people who make the decisions - politicians. I feel lucky that I have never been asked to fight for my country and that other people are prepared to do it. Most of us live an incredibly pampered life in this country, in part we are able to do so because of sacrifices made by our armed forces. The only sacrifice we are asked to make is pay our tax. I find the contrast with blokes coming back minus limbs pretty humbling. Really, what is the appropriate response to that - a) to express gratitude and sympathy b) not bother because afterall no one forced them to join the army? I don't see how expressing sympathy for our casualties implies a lack of sympathy for other casualties of war. The poppy appeal may raise money for our casualties but most 11 Nov ceremonies explicitly remember all the victims of war.

I guess my main point is that not wearing a poppy is hurtful to some people who don't deserve to be hurt. Wearing a poppy does not imply support for any particular war. apathy is probably the least approproate response.

Cheers,
J

Excellent post, Jedster.

Re. point 2, I haven't worn a poppy for the best part of 2 decades because I always lose them in a short time (no other reason or agenda). I may have to reconsider for next year.

Pross

Does anyone else find the poppy creases up really easily? I always feel more disrespectful wearing it like that than not wearing one at all so normally end up buying several.

on the road

markwalker wrote:

Ive only just read this thread anf frankly some of the attitudes shown here are appaling.

Wether you believe that politicians use it for gain, wether you believe the governemtn should pay, wether you believe that you wont conform as some sort of purile statement of individuality or free thought doesnt alter the facts.

Wearing a poppy shows to the men and women of the armed forces and their families that there sacrifices have value. Wear one to say thank you, its not PC its simply good manners.

I think you're being disrespectful to the armed forces. They fought so we can have the freedom to choose, yet you wish to take that freedom away after they have fought to give us that freedom. You're the one with the bad attitude.

alfablue

markwalker wrote:

Ive only just read this thread anf frankly some of the attitudes shown here are appaling.

Wether you believe that politicians use it for gain, wether you believe the governemtn should pay, wether you believe that you wont conform as some sort of purile statement of individuality or free thought doesnt alter the facts.

Wearing a poppy shows to the men and women of the armed forces and their families that there sacrifices have value. Wear one to say thank you, its not PC its simply good manners.

I don't think there are any appalling attitudes, merely individual choices and individual reasons.

markwalker

on the road wrote:

markwalker wrote:

Ive only just read this thread anf frankly some of the attitudes shown here are appaling.

Wether you believe that politicians use it for gain, wether you believe the governemtn should pay, wether you believe that you wont conform as some sort of purile statement of individuality or free thought doesnt alter the facts.

Wearing a poppy shows to the men and women of the armed forces and their families that there sacrifices have value. Wear one to say thank you, its not PC its simply good manners.

I think you're being disrespectful to the armed forces. They fought so we can have the freedom to choose, yet you wish to take that freedom away after they have fought to give us that freedom. You're the one with the bad attitude.

Youve not read properly. Its not about choice, Im talking about respect and good manners. How old are you?

markwalker

alfablue wrote:

markwalker wrote:

Ive only just read this thread anf frankly some of the attitudes shown here are appaling.

Wether you believe that politicians use it for gain, wether you believe the governemtn should pay, wether you believe that you wont conform as some sort of purile statement of individuality or free thought doesnt alter the facts.

Wearing a poppy shows to the men and women of the armed forces and their families that there sacrifices have value. Wear one to say thank you, its not PC its simply good manners.

I don't think there are any appalling attitudes, merely individual choices and individual reasons.

A fair point. Indeed there are different choices and reasons. Im appalled by some of them though

iainment

markwalker wrote:

on the road wrote:

markwalker wrote:

Ive only just read this thread anf frankly some of the attitudes shown here are appaling.

Wether you believe that politicians use it for gain, wether you believe the governemtn should pay, wether you believe that you wont conform as some sort of purile statement of individuality or free thought doesnt alter the facts.

Wearing a poppy shows to the men and women of the armed forces and their families that there sacrifices have value. Wear one to say thank you, its not PC its simply good manners.

I think you're being disrespectful to the armed forces. They fought so we can have the freedom to choose, yet you wish to take that freedom away after they have fought to give us that freedom. You're the one with the bad attitude.

Youve not read properly. Its not about choice, Im talking about respect and good manners. How old are you?

I am 54.
but it's always about choice. Wearing a poppy doesn't make anyone better than those who don't, or imply disrespect. The attitude of some about this is no different to the white feather branders of yesteryear.
I respect the sacrifice of all public servants who get killed or maimed in the course of duty but this doesn't need me to wear a poppy.

on the road

markwalker wrote:

on the road wrote:

markwalker wrote:

Ive only just read this thread anf frankly some of the attitudes shown here are appaling.

Wether you believe that politicians use it for gain, wether you believe the governemtn should pay, wether you believe that you wont conform as some sort of purile statement of individuality or free thought doesnt alter the facts.

Wearing a poppy shows to the men and women of the armed forces and their families that there sacrifices have value. Wear one to say thank you, its not PC its simply good manners.

I think you're being disrespectful to the armed forces. They fought so we can have the freedom to choose, yet you wish to take that freedom away after they have fought to give us that freedom. You're the one with the bad attitude.

Youve not read properly. Its not about choice, Im talking about respect and good manners. How old are you?

Do you think it's bad manners not to wear a poppy?

singlespeedexplosif

Wearing a poppy doesn't make anyone better than those who don't, or imply disrespect. The attitude of some about this is no different to the white feather branders of yesteryear.
I respect the sacrifice of all public servants who get killed or maimed in the course of duty but this doesn't need me to wear a poppy.

hear hear.

on the road

singlespeedexplosif wrote:

Wearing a poppy doesn't make anyone better than those who don't, or imply disrespect. The attitude of some about this is no different to the white feather branders of yesteryear.
I respect the sacrifice of all public servants who get killed or maimed in the course of duty but this doesn't need me to wear a poppy.

hear hear.

I second that.

markwalker

on the road wrote:

markwalker wrote:

on the road wrote:

markwalker wrote:

Ive only just read this thread anf frankly some of the attitudes shown here are appaling.

Wether you believe that politicians use it for gain, wether you believe the governemtn should pay, wether you believe that you wont conform as some sort of purile statement of individuality or free thought doesnt alter the facts.

Wearing a poppy shows to the men and women of the armed forces and their families that there sacrifices have value. Wear one to say thank you, its not PC its simply good manners.

I think you're being disrespectful to the armed forces. They fought so we can have the freedom to choose, yet you wish to take that freedom away after they have fought to give us that freedom. You're the one with the bad attitude.

Youve not read properly. Its not about choice, Im talking about respect and good manners. How old are you?

Do you think it's bad manners not to wear a poppy?

Yes I do.

jedster

Yes I do.

+1.

Not wearing a poppy does not mean that you lack respect. It does mean that you choose not to SHOW respect. You may pass berieved or injured people in the street and you have missed the opportunity to show them some compassion. I think that is bad manners in the sense of choosing not to hold a door open for someone or give up your seat for an elderly person on the tube. It doesn't make you a bad person, you've just missed an opportunity to show some kindness.

Cheers,
J

singlespeedexplosif

It does mean that you choose not to SHOW respect.
it means that you choose not to show respect in one particular way. It doesn't mean that you don't show respect.

markwalker

singlespeedexplosif wrote:

It does mean that you choose not to SHOW respect.
it means that you choose not to show respect in one particular way. It doesn't mean that you don't show respect.

Yes it does. Its not about conformism or choice its about respect and if you really believe that you clearly have non.

iainment

Yes it does. Its not about conformism or choice its about respect and if you really believe that you clearly have non.

Of course it's about conformism - you don't see that there is any excuse for not wearing a poppy and on this to you there is no other way than yours.

It has been said a few times on here that the reason given for Britain's involvement in armed conflicts over the years has been mainly about freedom. Freedom means not having to wear a poppy, freedom means that it's ok to annoy you or me, freedom is indivisible and you don't seem to understand that.

Your conflating this with good manners is a bit tenuous in my opinion as well. Good manners isn't about what signs and emblems you want to wear, but about the golden rule - do unto others as you would have done to you. So think on please and don't assume that just because some people don't choose to buy or wear a poppy that they don't have a fully formed conscience that they are comfortable with, that doesn't disrespect anybody or thing that deserves respect.

markwalker

iainment wrote:

Yes it does. Its not about conformism or choice its about respect and if you really believe that you clearly have non.

Of course it's about conformism - you don't see that there is any excuse for not wearing a poppy and on this to you there is no other way than yours.

It has been said a few times on here that the reason given for Britain's involvement in armed conflicts over the years has been mainly about freedom. Freedom means not having to wear a poppy, freedom means that it's ok to annoy you or me, freedom is indivisible and you don't seem to understand that.

Your conflating this with good manners is a bit tenuous in my opinion as well. Good manners isn't about what signs and emblems you want to wear, but about the golden rule - do unto others as you would have done to you. So think on please and don't assume that just because some people don't choose to buy or wear a poppy that they don't have a fully formed conscience that they are comfortable with, that doesn't disrespect anybody or thing that deserves respect.

Instead of patronising lamely about freedom you should look long and hard at yourself. I suspect you’ll like what you see perhaps even be impressed by your own intellect. A small price for our society I suppose.

iainment

markwalker wrote:

iainment wrote:

Yes it does. Its not about conformism or choice its about respect and if you really believe that you clearly have non.

Of course it's about conformism - you don't see that there is any excuse for not wearing a poppy and on this to you there is no other way than yours.

It has been said a few times on here that the reason given for Britain's involvement in armed conflicts over the years has been mainly about freedom. Freedom means not having to wear a poppy, freedom means that it's ok to annoy you or me, freedom is indivisible and you don't seem to understand that.

Your conflating this with good manners is a bit tenuous in my opinion as well. Good manners isn't about what signs and emblems you want to wear, but about the golden rule - do unto others as you would have done to you. So think on please and don't assume that just because some people don't choose to buy or wear a poppy that they don't have a fully formed conscience that they are comfortable with, that doesn't disrespect anybody or thing that deserves respect.

Instead of patronising lamely about freedom you should look long and hard at yourself. I suspect you’ll like what you see perhaps even be impressed by your own intellect. A small price for our society I suppose.

I'm trying to see what is patronising about saying people have freedom of choice. I do understand what is patronising and offensive about denying people this choice though.
I don't think that anything I have said was meant to be offensive, however your sarcasm is misplaced in this thread I would have thought.

guinea

I don't wear a poppy. I can't bring myself to contribute to the Earl Haig Fund.

I have a great respect for those who have died for this country. I've twice visited Flanders to pay my respect at the Menin Gate and the Commonwealth Graveyard.

I have a fairly common surname from the Hebrides, but it's rare to see it outside the Highlands. It's quite sobering to see dozens of my forefathers names on crosses and memorials across Flanders.

When people who pay a quid to join the poppy club suggest that everyone should do the same to show respect I just roll my eyes.

Get out to Flanders' fields and see the scale of the devastation and the number of lives lost for nothing. Learning what happened and passing on these stories is a far better tribute than wearing a paper flower.

Pross

Yes, I've been myself and it's humbling but it doesn't help to provide care for those who have served and are still with us as the Poppy Appeal does.

hells

I never knew poppys were such a controversial symbol. I have always worn one and on remberance parade and the 11th Nov 2 min silence I think of every single soldier, sailor and airman/woman who have lost their life, been wounded taken prisoner or went through war for this country, as well as the enemy soldiers and our allied soldiers. I also think of the friends and family of those soldiers and what they have had to go through, i think of all the Drs, nurses, medics, fire and police service personnel who also sacrificed during the great wars, the women who worked the land and factories in the absence of the men, the evacuee children and those civilians who had to endure bombing raids on both sides. As well as the civilians affected in current conflicts. For me the red poppy symbolises everyone ever affected by war in any capacity. the red makes me think of the blood shed in this countrys name.

I am 24 years old, an ambulance service trainee medic and a Ta soldier. I come from a military family with someone having served in each conflict from ww1 onwards. perhaps this is why I take this view. I have not yet deployed myself but will do as soon as I finish my course. Even if the money from poppys did not go to RBL I would still wear one as an act of rememberance. I do not judge those who don't and hope that they still take a 2 minuite silence at 11am 11th November. it makes me smile when I see the old boys wearing them and then look down the street to see the so called hoodie teens wearing them or a child.

This video is called the average british soldier. Some of you may like it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWsf76wG78g

parkaboy

I'm wearing a poppy at the moment, but only because I thought the lady said do you want to buy a puppy?

Anonymous

I pity all who don't wear a poppy. I think you are lacking in something or thinking too hard about it.

Jump all over me, I don't care.