First Crash folks, serious leasons learned

teagar

softlad wrote:

teagar wrote:

If no-one “knew” what ethnicity was, racism couldn’t exist.

trouble is fella, your theory is fine - right up to the point where you try to apply it in the real world.

I had a mate in primary school who was originally from from Ghana - I used to sit next to him in class. I knew he was black because I could see it with my own eyes. I didn't need anyone to tell me and neither did he. But I had never heard of 'ethnicity' because I was only seven years old.

By the same token, I'm sure most members of the old National Front didn't understand the word 'ethnicity' either - but it didn't stop them lobbing bricks through the window of the local asian shopkeeper. You see - racism can exist without 'ethnicity'....

I’m using ethnicity and race as interchangeable, to avoid any confusion about whether being Indian is a race or not.

I did a fair bit of work on the evolution of an explicit European racial discourse, which came about around the 16th and 17th century, around the same time Europeans first starting properly colonising the rest of the world. That’s a fair bit further back than your chaps from the national front.


The point of that study was that Europeans began to understand “race” when they felt the need to identify themselves as “Europeans”, as opposed to English, or Germanic or whatever. An easy way to do that was on skin colour. They felt the subconscious need to understand the world like that because it allowed for European dominance, or at least the idea of such, to exist, which, naturally suited them fine.

Racism, or any racial discourse, did not exist beforehand. It just didn’t. I’ve researched it!

Knowledge is both subjective and inherently political. That’s why observing anything, even if you are trying to be objective, you cannot be.

No-one is excluded!

fungus_the_muffin_man

It's amazing how people can be victimized, bullied and discriminated against all their lifes because they're fat, ginger have glasses etc... but thats ok and liberally accepted throughout society ( after all its only a laugh insn't it ) . Yet the moment you change the the word fat for indian ( for example) all hell breaks lose. :roll:

And please don't try to tell me that these people don't get discriminated against as much as in the racial context because they do.


Oh and for the record having a degree in something doesn't always make yo an expert :roll:

DaSy

Fungus The Muffin Man wrote:

Oh and for the record having a degree in something doesn't always make yo an expert :roll:

For some reason this reminds me of something a very wise person once told me - "just because it rhymes doesn't make it true"

The racism quoted earlier was at best, tenuous, and now we are turning intellectual-ist, I love this place...no, I really do.

feltkuota

It is acceptable (apparently) to call someone of the Scottish persuasion a Jock however use the Pa** word to describe someone from Pakistan and hugely racist. Before you all start I am in agreement that the use of the word is not correct but just trying to make my point. So, who makes up the rules as to what is racist and what is not. ie why, other than the fact that I am, do I constantly get you Jock bast***...?

teagar

Fungus The Muffin Man wrote:

Oh and for the record having a degree in something doesn't always make yo an expert :roll:

Fair enough.

It's all relative.

alfablue

feltkuota wrote:

It is acceptable (apparently) to call someone of the Scottish persuasion a Jock however use the Pa** word to describe someone from Pakistan and hugely racist. Before you all start I am in agreement that the use of the word is not correct but just trying to make my point. So, who makes up the rules as to what is racist and what is not. ie why, other than the fact that I am, do I constantly get you Jock bast***...?

I think words become problematic when they have been associated with people who are devalued, disliked, hated, discriminated against, victimised etc. So the words that are most offensive will be those used to describe people of ethnicities that have been most badly treated. The use of these words then evokes all of the hateful stuff that they are associated with, and their use, in itself, is effectively a similar abuse.

I think Jock B****** is very unacceptable. I would not like it. Note how the word is qualified with "B*******", would Jock on its own represent an abusive term? Really, it is for the people so described to decide.

DaSy

Alfablue - do we know whether Indians are offended by being referred to as Indian then?

teagar

DaSy wrote:

Alfablue - do we know whether Indians are offended by being referred to as Indian then?

Does it matter if they get offended or not?

It's not the offence that's the problem.

It's the racist insinuation.

feltkuota

So, in simpler terms is the use of the word Jock racist?

DaSy

I'm trying to understand when it becomes racist to refer to another persons race, in the terms that racist is being used in this thread.

alfablue

DaSy wrote:

Alfablue - do we know whether Indians are offended by being referred to as Indian then?

I don't know - I was merely trying to explain why some words that relate to ethnicity may be considered to be more of a racial slur than others. Just theorising, not attempting to write the rule book.

teagar

DaSy wrote:

I'm trying to understand when it becomes racist to refer to another persons race, in the terms that racist is being used in this thread.

In absolute terms it is, but socially it's fine to do so.


It's the context and the way the term was used in the OP which caused all the faff.

alfablue

DaSy wrote:

I'm trying to understand when it becomes racist to refer to another persons race, in the terms that racist is being used in this thread.

I am reluctant to put my head above the parapet again, but I would suggest that it is when the person's race is described when it can have no logical relevance to the issue - on this thread the implication is that the person's race, ethnicity or nationality is somehow an explanation for the behaviour upon which the OP commented. So stating "person A behaved badly (they were of race " connects the bad behaviour with race (and is using racial stereotyping) - I can see why that causes offence.

Anonymous

feltkuota wrote:

It is acceptable (apparently) to call someone of the Scottish persuasion a Jock however use the Pa** word to describe someone from Pakistan and hugely racist. Before you all start I am in agreement that the use of the word is not correct but just trying to make my point. So, who makes up the rules as to what is racist and what is not. ie why, other than the fact that I am, do I constantly get you Jock bast***...?

Dunno. And Ive got a degree. :P

Anonymous

Last post was tongue firmly in cheek.

+1 alfablue.

Chip \'oyler

Fungus The Muffin Man wrote:

It's amazing how people can be victimized, bullied and discriminated against all their lifes because they're fat, ginger have glasses etc... but thats ok and liberally accepted throughout society ( after all its only a laugh insn't it ) . Yet the moment you change the the word fat for indian ( for example) all hell breaks lose. :roll:

And please don't try to tell me that these people don't get discriminated against as much as in the racial context because they do.


Oh and for the record having a degree in something doesn't always make yo an expert :roll:

I know a speccy, fat lad with a big mop of ginger hair. He gets some right stick

He's scottish BTW

fungus_the_muffin_man

Chip \'oyler wrote:

Fungus The Muffin Man wrote:

It's amazing how people can be victimized, bullied and discriminated against all their lifes because they're fat, ginger have glasses etc... but thats ok and liberally accepted throughout society ( after all its only a laugh insn't it ) . Yet the moment you change the the word fat for indian ( for example) all hell breaks lose. :roll:

And please don't try to tell me that these people don't get discriminated against as much as in the racial context because they do.


Oh and for the record having a degree in something doesn't always make yo an expert :roll:

I know a speccy, fat lad with a big mop of ginger hair. He gets some right stick

He's scottish BTW

Blimey all he needs is to be gay and he'll have a full house

fungus_the_muffin_man

teagar wrote:

Fungus The Muffin Man wrote:

Oh and for the record having a degree in something doesn't always make yo an expert :roll:

Fair enough.

It's all relative.

But its true. I have a degree in Nursing. I wouldn't even begin to say that I was an expert on it at all.

Oh and as far as I'm aware I'm not related to you. Unless your dads a milkman with big ears and glasses

Oh I notice you fail to mention the rest of my post in relation to the racism issue. :twisted:

John C.

The first time I had a crash, the first person on the seen was an Aussie on holiday ( a doctor BTW). Now I don't have a degree, but that was how I have always told the story. Does this make me a racist ?

Chip \'oyler

No - but what has him being a doctor got to do with it?

rake

John C.

Chip \'oyler wrote:

No - but what has him being a doctor got to do with it?

It's the only accident I've had where:
The first person on the seen was an Aussie holiday maker who happened to be a doctor and atayed with me untill the ambulance arrived, from the ambulance station where the nurse had just pulled out of in her car that I ran into, My witness was a motorcycle cop Honest I'm not making it up

STEFANOS4784

God, kind o=f reminds me of that Fawlty towers episode 'don't mention the war'. I think if such a fuss wasn't made in the first place there would be no issue, seems guardian readers are more offended than the ones they think are victims IMO

STEFANOS4784

John C. wrote:

Chip \'oyler wrote:

No - but what has him being a doctor got to do with it?

It's the only accident I've had where:
The first person on the seen was an Aussie holiday maker who happened to be a doctor and atayed with me untill the ambulance arrived, from the ambulance station where the nurse had just pulled out of in her car that I ran into, My witness was a motorcycle cop Honest I'm not making it up

AND WHATS BEING AUSSIE GOT TO DO WITH IT?!?!?!????

QUICK LYNCH HIM :roll: :roll:



Edit, bit slow on the ol' uptake there :arrow:

Anonymous

STREWTH, MATE. :roll:

John C.

STEFANOS4784 wrote:

John C. wrote:

Chip \'oyler wrote:

No - but what has him being a doctor got to do with it?

It's the only accident I've had where:
The first person on the seen was an Aussie holiday maker who happened to be a doctor and atayed with me untill the ambulance arrived, from the ambulance station where the nurse had just pulled out of in her car that I ran into, My witness was a motorcycle cop Honest I'm not making it up

AND WHATS BEING AUSSIE GOT TO DO WITH IT?!?!?!????

QUICK LYNCH HIM :roll: :roll:



Edit, bit slow on the ol' uptake there :arrow:

It meant I could understand him ! if it had been a Brummie ......................

STEFANOS4784

, glad this has noe turned into what it should be