The Bruyneel interview

frenchfighter

Can someone hit stop on the cd player...it keeps repeating itself.

DaveyL

Moray Gub wrote:

micron wrote:

Why should bad man management necessarily equate to bad results? Organisations can still be successful despite bad man management - people who want to succeed in that situation simply find their own strategies which is precisely what Contador did - in the process showing he has more than enough mental strength and acuity to take anything that Boss Hog can throw at him.

Just on the subject of AC you seem to have turned full circle last year you accused him of being involved in Puerto and said if he had ridden the tour he would have been led away mid race blah blah blah. Said he was only one of many good riders and you were generally scathing about him .During the Giro it seemed the only posters on here backing him as an exceptional talent were me and DaveyL many others including yourself in particular were hanging him out to dry on PED allegations. Yet here we are 18 months later ..............

Not sure you're giving your argument much credibility by linking me to it :-D

Will need to look back and see what I said about Bertie back in the day, but I'm afraid his ridiculous P-N prologue was enough for me. And we've already done that one to death ourselves

micron

MG guilty as charged - I was disgusted when Contador signed to Discovery and promptly went off a rider who I'd followed since he first emerged as a hot young talent and potential next big thing several year's before under the tutelage of Saiz - the man who actually deserves the credit for nurturing his talent in the first place, and sticking with him after the aneurysm. I make absolutely no apologies for disliking the company Contador has kept, or the hypocrisy of not minding him being with Saiz but objecting to him being with Bruyneel - I think only Orwell is capable of being sufficiently morally rigorous to not be conflicted about doping equivalency

And yes, I think Bruyneel managed Conatdor 'catastrophically' badly but that Contador was tough enough, and has enough talent, to succeed despite of that. As for whether Contador was being ostracised and marginalized on his team, you argue that we don't really know, that we only have one person's word against the other. Yet would there have been well corroborated stories flying around the media had this not really happened?

dennisn

frenchfighter wrote:

Contador is the best.

JB is a loser.

The good guy wins.

Lightweights.

Just in case you actually believe what you say I would urge you to look out the nearest
window. There you will discover that the world is NOT black and white, even to color blind people. There are many colors, shades, hues and the like out there. This holds true for people also. There is always a bit of light in the dark and and a little shade in the brightest of lights. Your obsession with peoples God or Devil like virtues is unhealthy at best and trolling for responses at the very least. I vote for troll.
Either way are you calling us all lightweights(I wish) or are you telling us you use Lightweight components??? I'm confused, but that's nothing new.

moray_gub

dennisn wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

Contador is the best.

JB is a loser.

The good guy wins.

Lightweights.

Just in case you actually believe what you say I would urge you to look out the nearest
window. There you will discover that the world is NOT black and white, even to color blind people. There are many colors, shades, hues and the like out there. This holds true for people also. There is always a bit of light in the dark and and a little shade in the brightest of lights. Your obsession with peoples God or Devil like virtues is unhealthy at best and trolling for responses at the very least. I vote for troll.
Either way are you calling us all lightweights(I wish) or are you telling us you use Lightweight components??? I'm confused, but that's nothing new.

For someone who isnt bothered and doesnt read certain peoples posts he sure has a strange way of showing it. He is another Contador bandwagon jumper and all his thought processes are built around that. Ok maybe that doesnt amount to much but that sums him up. I think he provides great entertainment though nobody could really be so shallow in real life tho so must just be an internet forum front, long may he continue to amuse .

dennisn

Moray Gub wrote:

dennisn wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

Contador is the best.

JB is a loser.

The good guy wins.

Lightweights.

Just in case you actually believe what you say I would urge you to look out the nearest
window. There you will discover that the world is NOT black and white, even to color blind people. There are many colors, shades, hues and the like out there. This holds true for people also. There is always a bit of light in the dark and and a little shade in the brightest of lights. Your obsession with peoples God or Devil like virtues is unhealthy at best and trolling for responses at the very least. I vote for troll.
Either way are you calling us all lightweights(I wish) or are you telling us you use Lightweight components??? I'm confused, but that's nothing new.

For someone who isnt bothered and doesnt read certain peoples posts he sure has a strange way of showing it. He is another Contador bandwagon jumper and all his thought processes are built around that. Ok maybe that doesnt amount to much but that sums him up. I think he provides great entertainment though nobody could really be so shallow in real life tho so must just be an internet forum front, long may he continue to amuse .

He does do a good job of entertaining. Even though I "go off" on him at times he does make me sit up at take notice.

Vino

Keep at it Frenchletter let your love be blind.

Ave Censored Calves

dave_1

micron wrote:

MG guilty as charged - I was disgusted when Contador signed to Discovery and promptly went off a rider who I'd followed since he first emerged as a hot young talent and potential next big thing several year's before under the tutelage of Saiz - the man who actually deserves the credit for nurturing his talent in the first place, and sticking with him after the aneurysm. I make absolutely no apologies for disliking the company Contador has kept, or the hypocrisy of not minding him being with Saiz but objecting to him being with Bruyneel - I think only Orwell is capable of being sufficiently morally rigorous to not be conflicted about doping equivalency

And yes, I think Bruyneel managed Conatdor 'catastrophically' badly but that Contador was tough enough, and has enough talent, to succeed despite of that. As for whether Contador was being ostracised and marginalized on his team, you argue that we don't really know, that we only have one person's word against the other. Yet would there have been well corroborated stories flying around the media had this not really happened?

lol you 're sad AC couldn't work with Saiz anymore, don't explain why AC went to DC team, claim JB managed AC badly..err.. when he has won 4 grand tours...you're a good joker

The Prodigy

frenchfighter wrote:

Contador is the best.

JB is a loser.

The good guy wins.

Lightweights.

See guys the answer was that simple.

As this is a long discussion on man management I just wondered how important you guys think it is.

With Lance you could say that his man management skills went a long way towards winning him them couple of TDF's he picked up. He managed to get a team working for him like no other.

But then Contador never really seems to have marshalled any of his teams in the same way as Lance but has proved just as dominant, if not more so, in his time at the top.

Bruyneel was there for both men, so I wonder whether his influence whether good or bad is being slightly overstated?

micron

Dave_1, to address your points in order
1) As I said above, I'm a hypocrite re: Saiz/Bruyneel - can't be bothered to trawl through your old posts but would be fairly certain that no poster here is entirely consistent in their views
2) I believe AC couldn't work with Saiz anymore beacause of OP - you are aware of OP I take it? Discovery was the only team that would touch him as the others were observing the agreement not to sign implicated riders. Have previously made this point.
3) I have also argued, as have others, that Bruyneel was not hands on with AC, that he was supported to his treble by other DSes and that he won the TdF 2009 despite rather than because of OP.

Still amazed that you seem incapable of arguing the point rather than the person whenever anyone is critical of JB/LA.

Prodigy, excellent points which go back to my initial point which was that the strongest influences on AC during his GT wins were Yates and Galopin and it amazes me that some on this forum would rather credit the Hog with his success than a good upstanding Englishman

dave_1

micron wrote:

Dave_1, to address your points in order
1) As I said above, I'm a hypocrite re: Saiz/Bruyneel - can't be bothered to trawl through your old posts but would be fairly certain that no poster here is entirely consistent in their views
2) I believe AC couldn't work with Saiz anymore beacause of OP - you are aware of OP I take it? Discovery was the only team that would touch him as the others were observing the agreement not to sign implicated riders. Have previously made this point.
3) I have also argued, as have others, that Bruyneel was not hands on with AC, that he was supported to his treble by other DSes and that he won the TdF 2009 despite rather than because of OP.

Still amazed that you seem incapable of arguing the point rather than the person whenever anyone is critical of JB/LA.

Prodigy, excellent points which go back to my initial point which was that the strongest influences on AC during his GT wins were Yates and Galopin and it amazes me that some on this forum would rather credit the Hog with his success than a good upstanding Englishman

I'm amazed that you claim to know so much about the inner workings of JB's team management. You can't know that much beyond what we all can read in the mags and online, can you? How do you know who manged AC in his time at JBs teams?

Re Saiz and Bruyneel...they're no worse than each other I suppose. I'm aware of OP and that some riders did not have strong enough links to it to be punished e.g. Alan Davis, Vino... Bruyneel decided not to let newspapers pick his team all the time...am sure you've heard Lefevre won 500k the other day from a newspaper. I don't have the exact details about how strongly linked AC is to OP but IMO his link to OP was not as strong as Valverde, as Hamilton, Basso and Ullrich.

intothe12

micron wrote:

Dave_1, ...were Yates and Galopin and it amazes me that some on this forum would rather credit the Hog with his success than a good upstanding Englishman

Am not too interested in starting too much of a fuss here, but it ticks me right off to see the "good upstanding" bullsh*t. he was a good rider and seems likes a nice chap but he was also a yellow jersey wearer at the height of the EPO era. His reputation has come through largely unscathed and unquestioned. I think he has done a very good job as a DS and directed AC and his other riders very well, but lets not pretend for one second that he did not participate in the shenanigans like everyone else from that era, and then later as a DS on disco, csc.... sorry to say it, but you forced me.

micron

intothe12, there was more than a dose of irony in the phrase (hence the ).

intothe12

I shall endeavour to get the spectacles upgraded.

micron

Should have gone to Specsavers

bigmat

dennisn wrote:

Moray Gub wrote:

dennisn wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

Contador is the best.

JB is a loser.

The good guy wins.

Lightweights.

Just in case you actually believe what you say I would urge you to look out the nearest
window. There you will discover that the world is NOT black and white, even to color blind people. There are many colors, shades, hues and the like out there. This holds true for people also. There is always a bit of light in the dark and and a little shade in the brightest of lights. Your obsession with peoples God or Devil like virtues is unhealthy at best and trolling for responses at the very least. I vote for troll.
Either way are you calling us all lightweights(I wish) or are you telling us you use Lightweight components??? I'm confused, but that's nothing new.

For someone who isnt bothered and doesnt read certain peoples posts he sure has a strange way of showing it. He is another Contador bandwagon jumper and all his thought processes are built around that. Ok maybe that doesnt amount to much but that sums him up. I think he provides great entertainment though nobody could really be so shallow in real life tho so must just be an internet forum front, long may he continue to amuse .

He does do a good job of entertaining. Even though I "go off" on him at times he does make me sit up at take notice.

Was I being overly generous in interpreting Frenchfighter's comment above as actually displaying a sense of humour for once?! If not, it is a bit worrying...

moray_gub

intothe12 wrote:

micron wrote:

Dave_1, ...were Yates and Galopin and it amazes me that some on this forum would rather credit the Hog with his success than a good upstanding Englishman

Am not too interested in starting too much of a fuss here, but it ticks me right off to see the "good upstanding" bullsh*t. he was a good rider and seems likes a nice chap but he was also a yellow jersey wearer at the height of the EPO era. His reputation has come through largely unscathed and unquestioned. I think he has done a very good job as a DS and directed AC and his other riders very well, but lets not pretend for one second that he did not participate in the shenanigans like everyone else from that era, and then later as a DS on disco, csc.... sorry to say it, but you forced me.

To be honest you could have stopped after good upstanding englishmen as we know there is no such beast