The Bruyneel interview

dave_1

micron wrote:

Bruyneel wasn't Contador's DS, that's a matter of public record. But even as the team manager he did a dreadful job of managing the various egos and talents on that team. Sure, he brought in his favourite doctors from the old ONCE days to ensure that performance would be great, but his man management - and admin apparently, from all the decisions as to who to pay and not to pay - were not great.

Any manager, no matter how abysmal they are, can make an orgnaisation look good for a while if there is good pre exisiting team morale and a tight pre existing structure, but once their ineptitude causes that structure to break down then there are problems. By his own admission Bruyneel either couldn't, or didn't want - feelings of disloyalty? - to establish a good working relationship with Contador, instead increasingly isolating him and making almost catastrophic decisions in order to keep one person happy. He was pretty much disinterested in Contador except as someone who got the team wins and only re-engaged when Armstrong returns. That aint good management, however he tries to spin it.

who signed Contador in 2007? How many + tests have Astana provided in the past 2 years?

donrhummy

dennisn wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

donrhummy wrote:

JB is NOT a flip-flopper. He's NEVER changed his tune - Lance is his number one favorite rider/teammate, etc. and always has been (well since 1999).

Flip flopping is what we in Europe refer to as changing your mind. I believe in the US it's considered a sign of weakness especially for politicians

I have never understood how changing your mind, even for a politician, became such a horrible thing. Weird.

Well, it depends. If you changed your mind, no problem. But if you're stating things based on which way the wind blows, that's flip-flopping. (For example, McCain's opinions on the economy changing drastically within a few hours and then he tried to claim there was no change in his opinion that the two diametrically opposed ideas were one and the same -- that's flip-flopping)

micron

Ah, Tweedledee and Tweedledum rush to the defence of Boss Hog - you're loyalty is touching, fellahs.

But the point of my post was to look at the way that people manage and we have an awful lot of evidence - in the public domain, linked to by posters here - to suggest that Bruyneel's man management of the Astana team after the return of Armstrong (when he really started to take an interest) was bloody awful. You don't need to be inside a situation to see how it's playing out. Do you honestly believe it was good management to marginalize the star rider and race leader?

Sorry if I take the pronouncements of Boss Hog with just a little ton of salt - but thanks for the ever so informed debate on the points I made, anyway

dave_1

micron wrote:

Ah, Tweedledee and Tweedledum rush to the defence of Boss Hog - you're loyalty is touching, fellahs.

But the point of my post was to look at the way that people manage and we have an awful lot of evidence - in the public domain, linked to by posters here - to suggest that Bruyneel's man management of the Astana team after the return of Armstrong (when he really started to take an interest) was bloody awful. You don't need to be inside a situation to see how it's playing out. Do you honestly believe it was good management to marginalize the star rider and race leader?

Sorry if I take the pronouncements of Boss Hog with just a little ton of salt - but thanks for the ever so informed debate on the points I made, anyway

Answer the questions...who signed AC and any +s in Astana under JB?

dave_1

micron wrote:

Ah, Tweedledee and Tweedledum rush to the defence of Boss Hog - you're loyalty is touching, fellahs.

But the point of my post was to look at the way that people manage and we have an awful lot of evidence - in the public domain, linked to by posters here - to suggest that Bruyneel's man management of the Astana team after the return of Armstrong (when he really started to take an interest) was bloody awful. You don't need to be inside a situation to see how it's playing out. Do you honestly believe it was good management to marginalize the star rider and race leader?

Sorry if I take the pronouncements of Boss Hog with just a little ton of salt - but thanks for the ever so informed debate on the points I made, anyway

and I have no loyalty to JB...JB is likely an ONCE doper...like many of management so stop insulting my intelligence with the loyalty comment and answer the questions

dennisn

micron wrote:

Ah, Tweedledee and Tweedledum rush to the defence of Boss Hog - you're loyalty is touching, fellahs.

I think you're taking it just a bit wrong. I'd be willing to bet that can't find me 5 people who claim to have some "loyalty" to JB. If he was a friend of mine, well, maybe but he's just a person out there running a cycling team with many of the same problems that any business would have. Personality conflicts, cash flow, logistics, paperwork coming out his ears, trying to keep everyone happy, personnel comings and goings, team meetings,
planning and strategy. All that kind of stuff. Maybe I'm just plain weird(I know, who would have guessed?) but I don't feel any particular "loyalty" towards any particular rider, director, team, or the like. I like to watch the games and might cheer for a certain team or individual(pretty much depending on my mood at the time) but never really thought of it as "loyalty". In other words I don't wear any particlar teams "colors" on purpose. If I happen to pull one out of the clean drawer, well, I guess that's what I'll be wearing.

intothe12

donrhummy wrote:

dennisn wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

donrhummy wrote:

JB is NOT a flip-flopper. He's NEVER changed his tune - Lance is his number one favorite rider/teammate, etc. and always has been (well since 1999).

Flip flopping is what we in Europe refer to as changing your mind. I believe in the US it's considered a sign of weakness especially for politicians

I have never understood how changing your mind, even for a politician, became such a horrible thing. Weird.

Well, it depends. If you changed your mind, no problem. But if you're stating things based on which way the wind blows, that's flip-flopping. (For example, McCain's opinions on the economy changing drastically within a few hours and then he tried to claim there was no change in his opinion that the two diametrically opposed ideas were one and the same -- that's flip-flopping)

I can remember sitting on the edge of my seat in 1995 when Indurain was motoring into liege with JB up his backside, thinking JB you scrubber... (saying that, I would have done the same) I think that was one of the best tours I ever remember (obviously history / doping clouds some of my enjoyment) however this was when my dislike for the man began to incubate – scrubbers are nobodies friend.

People changing their mind is all well and good but as someone correctly pointed out here on the forum....LA was a guest rider and the Pistelero was the star...then all of a sudden, LA tweets he is back in town for the big show in July, JB wakes up in the middle of the night in a sweat with $$$$$$$ in his eyes. Contador could have given JB 10 years of grand tours, but I guess that the secret bond (forged over a cold refrigerator pannier) between LA and JB is too tough to break.

micron

Bruyneel signed Contador to Discovery when no other team would touch him owing to possible involvement in OP and the gentleman's agreement (already broken by Bruyneel) not to sign riders implicated in doping affairs.

Though I'm failing to see why Bruyneel's decision to sign a rider who was already acknowledged to have great potential addresses the issues of how good his man management skills with that rider were and whether it was his direct intervention or that of Galopin/Yates that developed that potential - wasn't Bruyneel quoted as saying he wasn't that bothered about the sport (or Contador's TdF win) until his bromance with Armstrong was rekindled earlier this year?

blazing_saddles

Dave_1 wrote:

Answer the questions...who signed AC and any +s in Astana under JB?

Well, that proves he's a failure.
No wonder Levi has failed to take a GT.
Obviously, he has been insufficiently "charged", with this safety first policy. :P

Seriously, though...on the signing front. For ever Contador, there's a Basso.
Considering the way he handled that bit of legal loopholing, only to have the bomb drop.....

dennisn

micron wrote:

........ - wasn't Bruyneel quoted as saying he wasn't that bothered about the sport (or Contador's TdF win) until his bromance with Armstrong was rekindled earlier this year?

I think that's true. Although myself I would tend to say "so what". A person can lose interest in their job on occasion or become bored with things, overworked, just plain worn out, or even develope a bad attitude. Happens to me(and I'm sure lots of others)
in the course of things. Most of us tend to bounce back into the swing of it though
and I don't know why JB would be any different. Maybe he was bored. If so, having Lance back on your team would probably get the juices flowing again. H*ll, the mere mention of his name on this forum seems to get more than a few people up in arms in one way or another.

micron

I basically agree Dennis, though why having the opportunity to develop the best young stage racer in the world wouldn't get your juices flowing I don't know.

dennisn

micron wrote:

I basically agree Dennis, though why having the opportunity to develop the best young stage racer in the world wouldn't get your juices flowing I don't know.

I've worked on 4 or 5 major sports stadiums. Each one taking up at least a year of my time and effort. The first one, Tiger Stadium in Detroit, really got me going, good work, interesting, lots of trips to the job site, things went fairly well, company made money, etc.,
etc. Recently I spent a year or so on the new hockey arena here in Toledo. I was excited
at first but after a while the grind started to settle in and I was glad when it was over.
Maybe I am getting a bit bored or burnt out? I'm due to retire in a year or so and I do believe(contrary to what I've said in the past - a flip flop) that I'm "outta here" as they say.
Anyway, I can relate to not having the juices flowing at times even if it's a situation where they should be.

moray_gub

micron wrote:

Ah, Tweedledee and Tweedledum rush to the defence of Boss Hog - you're loyalty is touching, fellahs.

But the point of my post was to look at the way that people manage and we have an awful lot of evidence - in the public domain, linked to by posters here - to suggest that Bruyneel's man management of the Astana team after the return of Armstrong (when he really started to take an interest) was bloody awful. You don't need to be inside a situation to see how it's playing out. Do you honestly believe it was good management to marginalize the star rider and race leader?

Sorry if I take the pronouncements of Boss Hog with just a little ton of salt - but thanks for the ever so informed debate on the points I made, anyway

So i take it by his alleged poor man management and marginilisation of AC he didnt win the Tour then and he had a catastrophic season ? If he had blown theTour by his doing this i could maybe take your point. But as it is its one mans opinion against another, and as the saying goes the truth usually lies somewere in between the two. But your views and attitude to JB are so entrenched i dont expect you to see that. AC strikes me a fragile creature needing loved maybe thats the problem maybe not But hey i was not there and neither were you as much as you come across as though you think you were so none of us really know what went on.

intothe12

I would imagine the overwhelming consensus is that AC won the tour inspite of JB.

micron

You're right, I agree we don't, but wouldn't you say that Contador couldn't seem further from a fragile creature? He had the mental strength and sheer balls to stand up to all the crap that JB/LA were throwing at him and seems to have won the race largely despite, rather than because of, Bruyneel's efforts.

I think the Hog has been lucky to get a combination of team where money was no object, business nous in Armstrong, well enhanced talent through the exclusivity deal with Ferrari and rigid team discipline - that worked a treat for 7 years. After that the success has been largely down to Galopin and Yates (surprised this forum doesn't want to give credit where it's due to a Brit :shock:) with Bruyneel consumed by playing games with the Kazakhs and playing faithful lapdog to Lance.

Take, for example, the collarbone incident. Contador was at that race too yet, instead of staying to nurture his best shot at TdF glory, he ran to be at Armstrong's bedside. I've no doubt exactly why they share a 'special relationship' but I suspect Armstrong would have won the TdF without Bruyneel.

moray_gub

micron wrote:

Take, for example, the collarbone incident. Contador was at that race too yet, instead of staying to nurture his best shot at TdF glory, he ran to be at Armstrong's bedside. I've no doubt exactly why they share a 'special relationship' but I suspect Armstrong would have won the TdF without Bruyneel.

The collarbone incident ? so his rider crashes breaks his collarbone he goes to check on his condition (as is normal for a Team Manager ) and he is in Palencia for the ITT the next day and you think there is something wrong with this ........you really need to let the JB hatred go a bit its making you say silly things :roll:

moray_gub

intothe12 wrote:

I would imagine the overwhelming consensus is that AC won the tour inspite of JB.

Maybe he did maybe he didnt but catastrophic man management would have surely have meant he lost the tour and as we know that didnt happen .

Arkibal

What I find so demeaning is how JB is trying to blame AC as an immature hothead that money has spoilt.

Has JB forgot AC's own history; poor background, almost dying, his brother who is stuck in a wheelchair for the rest of his life? No matter what amount of money they throw at AC, his brother will still be stuck on the wheelchair, and that imo will always keep his feet on the ground.

Wonder why JB wasn't doing this complaining in 2008...
Yes I know.

gabriel959

Moray Gub wrote:

intothe12 wrote:

I would imagine the overwhelming consensus is that AC won the tour inspite of JB.

Maybe he did maybe he didnt but catastrophic man management would have surely have meant he lost the tour and as we know that didnt happen .

Of course they did win the Tour - but that happened because Contador didn't follow team orders. And that is a fact.

moray_gub

gabriel959 wrote:

Moray Gub wrote:

intothe12 wrote:

I would imagine the overwhelming consensus is that AC won the tour inspite of JB.

Maybe he did maybe he didnt but catastrophic man management would have surely have meant he lost the tour and as we know that didnt happen .

Of course they did win the Tour - but that happened because Contador didn't follow team orders. And that is a fact.

If the man management had been as catastrophic as has been claimed in here then by no stretch of the imagination would they have won he tour ...........simple.

blazing_saddles

Moray Gub wrote:

If the man management had been as catastrophic as has been claimed in here then by no stretch of the imagination would they have won he tour ...........simple.

Did Bruyneel have the team 100% behind Contador? By no stretch of the imagination.
Did Contador win the Tour without any support? By no stretch of the imagination.
Could Bruyneel have completely sabotaged Contador, if he had chosen? Probably.

IMO. The truth falls somewhere in between.

One thing I learnt, after this story broke.
During the final ITT in Annecy, Contador received no time split info, from the team car, after the first few kms.

intothe12

Did Bruyneel have the team 100% behind Contador? By no stretch of the imagination.

Correctamundo

Did Contador win the Tour without any support? By no stretch of the imagination.

Once again Correct - but the amount of support he had is probably far less than any other grand tour winner in the last 20 years - you have to go back as far as Roche (vs roberto visentini) in the 87 Giro and Lemond (vs Bernard Hinault) in the 85 Tour for the same levels of team support...

Could Bruyneel have completely sabotaged Contador, if he had chosen? Probably

but not without outing himself as the snake oil salesman he is.

During the final ITT in Annecy, Contador received no time split info, from the team car, after the first few kms.

i'm just so surprised that the other DS's were so complicit - i suppose they were afraid of not getting their next pay check

frenchfighter

Contador is the best.

JB is a loser.

The good guy wins.

Lightweights.

micron

Why should bad man management necessarily equate to bad results? Organisations can still be successful despite bad man management - people who want to succeed in that situation simply find their own strategies which is precisely what Contador did - in the process showing he has more than enough mental strength and acuity to take anything that Boss Hog can throw at him.

iainf72

Blazing Saddles wrote:

One thing I learnt, after this story broke.
During the final ITT in Annecy, Contador received no time split info, from the team car, after the first few kms.

His radio broke, didn't it?

moray_gub

micron wrote:

Why should bad man management necessarily equate to bad results? Organisations can still be successful despite bad man management - people who want to succeed in that situation simply find their own strategies which is precisely what Contador did - in the process showing he has more than enough mental strength and acuity to take anything that Boss Hog can throw at him.

So its down to bad management now well i suppose thats different from catastrophic man management as was alleged earlier. I repeat AC would not have won the tour is the man management had been catastrophic . As for what JB allegedly threw at him well neither you nor i know that.

moray_gub

frenchfighter wrote:

Contador is the best.

JB is a loser.

The good guy wins.

Lightweights.

You stick to the pictures buddy its what your good at, leave the debate to those that have at least a modicum of knowledge about the subject matter.

dave_1

frenchfighter wrote:

Contador is the best.

JB is a loser.

The good guy wins.

Lightweights.

dave_1

iainf72 wrote:

Blazing Saddles wrote:

One thing I learnt, after this story broke.
During the final ITT in Annecy, Contador received no time split info, from the team car, after the first few kms.

His radio broke, didn't it?

that is why he rode so well...have you heard the garbage they yell down the radios..."push push push...good job good job"....,,,it's the last thing a rider needs IMO...concentration is needed.

moray_gub

micron wrote:

Why should bad man management necessarily equate to bad results? Organisations can still be successful despite bad man management - people who want to succeed in that situation simply find their own strategies which is precisely what Contador did - in the process showing he has more than enough mental strength and acuity to take anything that Boss Hog can throw at him.

Just on the subject of AC you seem to have turned full circle last year you accused him of being involved in Puerto and said if he had ridden the tour he would have been led away mid race blah blah blah. Said he was only one of many good riders and you were generally scathing about him .During the Giro it seemed the only posters on here backing him as an exceptional talent were me and DaveyL many others including yourself in particular were hanging him out to dry on PED allegations. Yet here we are 18 months later ..............