The Bruyneel interview

24

Comments

  • micron
    micron Posts: 1,843
    Yates was down as DS for both races but Galopin has also played an enormous part in Contador's development. Bruyneel it seems, and from his own admission in this self serving interview, didn't connect with the rider so to be seeking respect for achievements that weren't his is disrespectful to those who were responsible.
  • afx237vi
    afx237vi Posts: 12,630
    I find it hilarious that even Lance Armstrong takes absolutely no notice of JB's "motivational" texts and tweets. The man is David Brent.
  • secretsqirrel
    secretsqirrel Posts: 2,041
    micron wrote:
    Yates was down as DS for both races but Galopin has also played an enormous part in Contador's development. Bruyneel it seems, and from his own admission in this self serving interview, didn't connect with the rider so to be seeking respect for achievements that weren't his is disrespectful to those who were responsible.

    Good point. I think JB must be banking on folks having a short memory and limited interest.
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    edited October 2009
    micron wrote:
    Actually, I don't think enough credit is given to either Alain Galopin or Sean Yates for the great success of the Astana team, and in particular Contador. Yates was the DS for his Giro/Vuelta double not Bruyneel. Now, unless the DS is entirely redundant at that team and only the general manager, Bruyneel, calls the race, I'd say Bruyneel is not only rewriting history but being disrespectful to his DSes into the bargain. No wonder Yates left.

    Isnt it a strange old world eh ! if Astana had no sucess then there would have been all sorts of criticism for the man at the top. Bottom line is when it bad the top man gets the flack when its good he takes a good share of the credit, as it is in all walks of life i dont see why you think pro cycling should be any different. Obviously though you are never going to give JB credit for anything given your views on him


    as the man himself says

    "Astana was a synonym for rubbish and doping; nobody wanted to be linked to the team. I turned it around in six months, despite the opposition from ASO. We got results, without any suspicion. But in those two years I never received respect for my work, no appreciation at all and the Kazakhi were always acting difficult.
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    micron wrote:
    Yates was down as DS for both races but Galopin has also played an enormous part in Contador's development. Bruyneel it seems, and from his own admission in this self serving interview, didn't connect with the rider so to be seeking respect for achievements that weren't his is disrespectful to those who were responsible.


    Id say they all played a part in in his developmen but then i dont have tunnel vison when it comes to JB.
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    SecretSqirrel wrote:
    micron wrote:
    Yates was down as DS for both races but Galopin has also played an enormous part in Contador's development. Bruyneel it seems, and from his own admission in this self serving interview, didn't connect with the rider so to be seeking respect for achievements that weren't his is disrespectful to those who were responsible.

    Good point. I think JB must be banking on folks having a short memory and limited interest.

    Do you really think JB is in a position where he needs to rely on folks on an internet forum having a short memory or limited interest ?.......... :roll:
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • afx237vi
    afx237vi Posts: 12,630
    Moray Gub wrote:
    SecretSqirrel wrote:
    micron wrote:
    Yates was down as DS for both races but Galopin has also played an enormous part in Contador's development. Bruyneel it seems, and from his own admission in this self serving interview, didn't connect with the rider so to be seeking respect for achievements that weren't his is disrespectful to those who were responsible.

    Good point. I think JB must be banking on folks having a short memory and limited interest.

    Do you really think JB is in a position where he needs to rely on folks on an internet forum having a short memory or limited interest ?.......... :roll:

    Not people on internet forums, no, because we're all bitter old cynics with shrivelled-up black hearts.

    But it does apply to the majority of casual cycling fans who maybe only tune in to watch LA and the Tour. They're probably the ones buying JB's book, or replica Radio Shack jerseys.
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    afx237vi wrote:
    Moray Gub wrote:
    SecretSqirrel wrote:
    micron wrote:
    Yates was down as DS for both races but Galopin has also played an enormous part in Contador's development. Bruyneel it seems, and from his own admission in this self serving interview, didn't connect with the rider so to be seeking respect for achievements that weren't his is disrespectful to those who were responsible.

    Good point. I think JB must be banking on folks having a short memory and limited interest.

    Do you really think JB is in a position where he needs to rely on folks on an internet forum having a short memory or limited interest ?.......... :roll:

    Not people on internet forums, no, because we're all bitter old cynics with shrivelled-up black hearts.

    But it does apply to the majority of casual cycling fans who maybe only tune in to watch LA and the Tour. They're probably the ones buying JB's book, or replica Radio Shack jerseys.

    So to sum up your saying JB is in a position where he needs casual cycling fans who tune into the Tour De France to have limited memories ?........maybe you want to have a rethink on that one
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • afx237vi
    afx237vi Posts: 12,630
    Moray Gub wrote:
    So to sum up your saying JB is in a position where he needs casual cycling fans who tune into the Tour De France to have limited memories ?........maybe you want to have a rethink on that one

    Why not? JB wants to present the best image he can for himself and his team. If that means bending the truth here and there, or putting a positive spin on something that he wants to present in a better light, then that is something that he will do. That's not a criticism of JB... that's just human nature. It's something everyone does.

    He knows that the vast majority of people who read a puff piece in some Hello-style magazine are not going to go back and read other interviews to check out what he said 6 months ago about Vinokourov. They aren't interested enough to find out Contador's version of events.

    So yes, he does rely on people having short memories.
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    afx237vi wrote:
    Moray Gub wrote:
    SecretSqirrel wrote:
    micron wrote:
    Yates was down as DS for both races but Galopin has also played an enormous part in Contador's development. Bruyneel it seems, and from his own admission in this self serving interview, didn't connect with the rider so to be seeking respect for achievements that weren't his is disrespectful to those who were responsible.

    Good point. I think JB must be banking on folks having a short memory and limited interest.

    Do you really think JB is in a position where he needs to rely on folks on an internet forum having a short memory or limited interest ?.......... :roll:



    But it does apply to the majority of casual cycling fans who maybe only tune in to watch LA and the Tour. They're probably the ones buying JB's book, or replica Radio Shack jerseys.

    And buying a book or jersey is bad why?
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    afx237vi wrote:
    Moray Gub wrote:
    So to sum up your saying JB is in a position where he needs casual cycling fans who tune into the Tour De France to have limited memories ?........maybe you want to have a rethink on that one

    Why not? JB wants to present the best image he can for himself and his team. If that means bending the truth here and there, or putting a positive spin on something that he wants to present in a better light, then that is something that he will do. That's not a criticism of JB... that's just human nature. It's something everyone does.

    He knows that the vast majority of people who read a puff piece in some Hello-style magazine are not going to go back and read other interviews to check out what he said 6 months ago about Vinokourov. They aren't interested enough to find out Contador's version of events.

    So yes, he does rely on people having short memories.

    I totally diasagree with you he doesnt need to have any cycling fans with short memories or otherwise . He seems to be quite succesful irrespective of the memory capacity of full on or short term cycling fans. I think you need to get a sense of perspeective on this JB says it like he see it as does everybody , i suspect he doesnt need or couldnt give a two monkeys whether cycling fans short term or otherwise agree with him or not. Anyway who is to say what he is saying is wrong ?
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • Arkibal
    Arkibal Posts: 850
    So Contador is a hothead who doesn't follow team(?) orders? I wonder what the team orders were then.
    Not to win the Tour?

    JB had no complaints in 2008 before a certain rider made a comeback. Draw your own conclusions.
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,711
    Arkibal wrote:
    So Contador is a hothead who doesn't follow team(?) orders? I wonder what the team orders were then.
    Not to win the Tour?

    JB had no complaints in 2008 before a certain rider made a comeback. Draw your own conclusions.

    Can't fault this logic. Well done Arkibal.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • secretsqirrel
    secretsqirrel Posts: 2,041
    Moray Gub wrote:

    I totally diasagree with you he doesnt need to have any cycling fans with short memories or otherwise . He seems to be quite succesful irrespective of the memory capacity of full on or short term cycling fans. I think you need to get a sense of perspeective on this JB says it like he see it as does everybody , i suspect he doesnt need or couldnt give a two monkeys whether cycling fans short term or otherwise agree with him or not. Anyway who is to say what he is saying is wrong ?

    I am, because I was able to post a link that showed he had done a U-turn regarding Vino. Or perhaps he is the one with a short memory?
  • secretsqirrel
    secretsqirrel Posts: 2,041
    Blazing Saddles wrote:
    Arkibal wrote:
    So Contador is a hothead who doesn't follow team(?) orders? I wonder what the team orders were then.
    Not to win the Tour?

    JB had no complaints in 2008 before a certain rider made a comeback. Draw your own conclusions.

    Can't fault this logic. Well done Arkibal.

    That does seem to be the big turning point in the Astana story for the last 2 years. The interview reads like the edited highlights of LAs twitters. i.e. the comments about Contador, disdain for Kazakhstan. JB is either besotted or possessed.
  • intothe12
    intothe12 Posts: 190
    SecretSqirrel wrote:
    Blazing Saddles wrote:
    Arkibal wrote:
    So Contador is a hothead who doesn't follow team(?) orders? I wonder what the team orders were then.
    Not to win the Tour?

    JB had no complaints in 2008 before a certain rider made a comeback. Draw your own conclusions.

    Can't fault this logic. Well done Arkibal.

    That does seem to be the big turning point in the Astana story for the last 2 years. The interview reads like the edited highlights of LAs twitters. i.e. the comments about Contador, disdain for Kazakhstan. JB is either besotted or possessed.

    JB is a flip-flopper who will stab the the one guy who will most likely win every grand tour he enters for the next ten years (Regardless of whether Contador is clean or not), in favour of a short term pay day with Radioshack.
  • afx237vi
    afx237vi Posts: 12,630
    dennisn wrote:
    afx237vi wrote:
    But it does apply to the majority of casual cycling fans who maybe only tune in to watch LA and the Tour. They're probably the ones buying JB's book, or replica Radio Shack jerseys.

    And buying a book or jersey is bad why?

    Where did I say it was bad?
  • afx237vi
    afx237vi Posts: 12,630
    Moray Gub wrote:
    I totally diasagree with you he doesnt need to have any cycling fans with short memories or otherwise . He seems to be quite succesful irrespective of the memory capacity of full on or short term cycling fans.

    JB doesn't need cycling fans? So who is buying his book, or booking him to give a motivational speech (see his website)?
    I think you need to get a sense of perspeective on this JB says it like he see it as does everybody , i suspect he doesnt need or couldnt give a two monkeys whether cycling fans short term or otherwise agree with him or not. Anyway who is to say what he is saying is wrong ?

    Correction: JB says it like he wants everybody else to see it, as does everybody. Who is to say he's wrong... well, I'm sure there are quite a few people, including Contador, Noval, Vino to name a few. Each will present their own version of events and neatly gloss over the things that make them look bad, just like Bruyneel and everybody else does.
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    afx237vi wrote:
    dennisn wrote:
    afx237vi wrote:
    But it does apply to the majority of casual cycling fans who maybe only tune in to watch LA and the Tour. They're probably the ones buying JB's book, or replica Radio Shack jerseys.

    And buying a book or jersey is bad why?

    Where did I say it was bad?

    Sorry if I took it wrong. Thought I sensed a bit of sarcasm in there. :oops:
  • afx237vi
    afx237vi Posts: 12,630
    dennisn wrote:
    afx237vi wrote:
    dennisn wrote:
    afx237vi wrote:
    But it does apply to the majority of casual cycling fans who maybe only tune in to watch LA and the Tour. They're probably the ones buying JB's book, or replica Radio Shack jerseys.

    And buying a book or jersey is bad why?

    Where did I say it was bad?

    Sorry if I took it wrong. Thought I sensed a bit of sarcasm in there. :oops:

    No, no sarcasm for a change. Anyone in here actually read his book, though?
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,711
    April 2009:
    "Lance has always said that Alberto Contador is the best stage racer in the world today. I've said it. Levi (Leipheimer) has said it. Lance will not attack Alberto in the mountains. Alberto will be protected the entire race. And Lance will be the man immediately in front of Alberto blocking the wind," said Johan Bruyneel, the team's general manager. "It doesn't get any better than that, having a 7-time Tour champion pulling you up mountains."

    http://www.cyclingfans.com/Armstrong_to ... _Tour_bike

    July 3rd 2009:
    http://www.velonews.com/article/94277
    The song remains nearly the same, but with some reservations.

    July 26th 2009:
    Stress fractures for all to see.
    http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/tdf2009/n ... id=4356850

    August 19th 2009:
    Full on bitching.
    http://sports.yahoo.com/sc/news?slug=ap ... -armstrong

    October 27th 2009:
    It was all Contador's fault.
    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bruynee ... eason-2009

    Well, I guess it depends upon whether or not, at the Tour, you think Contador got what he was promised, back in April. :wink:
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    Blazing Saddles wrote:
    April 2009:
    "Lance has always said that Alberto Contador is the best stage racer in the world today. I've said it. Levi (Leipheimer) has said it. Lance will not attack Alberto in the mountains. Alberto will be protected the entire race. And Lance will be the man immediately in front of Alberto blocking the wind," said Johan Bruyneel, the team's general manager. "It doesn't get any better than that, having a 7-time Tour champion pulling you up mountains."

    http://www.cyclingfans.com/Armstrong_to ... _Tour_bike

    July 3rd 2009:
    http://www.velonews.com/article/94277
    The song remains nearly the same, but with some reservations.

    July 26th 2009:
    Stress fractures for all to see.
    http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/tdf2009/n ... id=4356850

    August 19th 2009:
    Full on bitching.
    http://sports.yahoo.com/sc/news?slug=ap ... -armstrong

    October 27th 2009:
    It was all Contador's fault.
    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bruynee ... eason-2009

    Well, I guess it depends upon whether or not, at the Tour, you think Contador got what he was promised, back in April. :wink:

    Seems to me that there are very differing thoughts on what went on "out there" in July.
    This doesn't surprise me at all. People who weren't even there claim to know all about it
    and the people who were there, and involved, have different stories or should I say saw things differently. Sounds exactly like what happens with business's in general. I work in the office of a structural steel fabricator. We get a job and have a meeting(or two or more) with the Architect / Engineer and general contractor. These meetings usually result in "promises" being made by everyone concerned, to work together, help each other out,
    etc., etc. All good intentions to be sure. During the course of these jobs there are always
    problems and these problems are never anyone's fault(so to speak). Admitting fault might cost you money, so deflecting blame, where you can, is the way to go. Planning is a good thing but it doesn't always go as smoothly as "planned" and when the hiccups occur, well, everyone starts looking to "deflect". Oh, on occasion people will admit to this or that, but more often than not it's "someone else's" fault. I don't see the world of Pro
    Cycling to be any different. It's made up of people like you and I, generally looking out for our, and their, own best interest's.
  • intothe12
    intothe12 Posts: 190
    I work in the office of a structural steel fabricator

    thank god for carbon and plastic - but humour aside - you are spot on (ten people at the same meeting, ten different views)
  • donrhummy
    donrhummy Posts: 2,329
    intothe12 wrote:
    SecretSqirrel wrote:
    Blazing Saddles wrote:
    Arkibal wrote:
    So Contador is a hothead who doesn't follow team(?) orders? I wonder what the team orders were then.
    Not to win the Tour?

    JB had no complaints in 2008 before a certain rider made a comeback. Draw your own conclusions.

    Can't fault this logic. Well done Arkibal.

    That does seem to be the big turning point in the Astana story for the last 2 years. The interview reads like the edited highlights of LAs twitters. i.e. the comments about Contador, disdain for Kazakhstan. JB is either besotted or possessed.

    JB is a flip-flopper who will stab the the one guy who will most likely win every grand tour he enters for the next ten years (Regardless of whether Contador is clean or not), in favour of a short term pay day with Radioshack.

    JB is NOT a flip-flopper. He's NEVER changed his tune - Lance is his number one favorite rider/teammate, etc. and always has been (well since 1999).
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    donrhummy wrote:
    JB is NOT a flip-flopper. He's NEVER changed his tune - Lance is his number one favorite rider/teammate, etc. and always has been (well since 1999).

    Flip flopping is what we in Europe refer to as changing your mind. I believe in the US it's considered a sign of weakness especially for politicians

    But I think we can see from Blazes quotes that he certainly did change his mind at one point.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    iainf72 wrote:
    donrhummy wrote:
    JB is NOT a flip-flopper. He's NEVER changed his tune - Lance is his number one favorite rider/teammate, etc. and always has been (well since 1999).

    Flip flopping is what we in Europe refer to as changing your mind. I believe in the US it's considered a sign of weakness especially for politicians

    I have never understood how changing your mind, even for a politician, became such a horrible thing. Weird.
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,711
    dennisn wrote:

    I have never understood how changing your mind, even for a politician, became such a horrible thing. Weird.

    Thereby hangs the rub.
    Had Armstrong been a team signing, there should be no problem in changing either team tactics or leadership, if based upon current form.

    He wasn't a signing but, in effect a guest rider.

    Both Bruyneel (as quoted above) and Armstrong made the verbal guarrantee to support Contador as undisputed team leader at the Tour, prior to Armstrong getting his invite onto the team.

    Attitudes began to change, after LA had established himself, within the team demographic.

    Unintentional or planned?
    Posters will inevitably adopt their previously established stance and argue from that stance.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    Blazing Saddles wrote:
    dennisn wrote:

    I have never understood how changing your mind, even for a politician, became such a horrible thing. Weird.

    Thereby hangs the rub.
    Had Armstrong been a team signing, there should be no problem in changing either team tactics or leadership, if based upon current form.

    He wasn't a signing but, in effect a guest rider.

    Both Bruyneel (as quoted above) and Armstrong made the verbal guarrantee to support Contador as undisputed team leader at the Tour, prior to Armstrong getting his invite onto the team.

    Attitudes began to change, after LA had established himself, within the team demographic.

    Unintentional or planned?
    Posters will inevitably adopt their previously established stance and argue from that stance.

    I know what you're saying. It's just that PLANS don't always go the way they are put out there. It doesn't take much to foul up the best laid plans. If the people involved in this whole TDF thing can't agree on what happened. Then what? I don't follow it at all. Ya got 3 guys sort of sniping at each other when they should be deliriously happy with a 1st. and 3rd. place finish in this, the most important of bike races. All three of them got plenty of publicity, a boat load of money, probably a few book deals. The list goes on and on and yet they still find time to argue these ridiculous points of "interest"(for lack of a better word). The more I hear any one of them say anything about the other the more I'm starting to think that the 3 of then are just doing it for the soap opera effect and to keep their names out there. A conspiracy theory if you will. Now wouldn't that be NEWS?
  • micron
    micron Posts: 1,843
    Bruyneel wasn't Contador's DS, that's a matter of public record. But even as the team manager he did a dreadful job of managing the various egos and talents on that team. Sure, he brought in his favourite doctors from the old ONCE days to ensure that performance would be great, but his man management - and admin apparently, from all the decisions as to who to pay and not to pay - were not great.

    Any manager, no matter how abysmal they are, can make an orgnaisation look good for a while if there is good pre exisiting team morale and a tight pre existing structure, but once their ineptitude causes that structure to break down then there are problems. By his own admission Bruyneel either couldn't, or didn't want - feelings of disloyalty? - to establish a good working relationship with Contador, instead increasingly isolating him and making almost catastrophic decisions in order to keep one person happy. He was pretty much disinterested in Contador except as someone who got the team wins and only re-engaged when Armstrong returns. That aint good management, however he tries to spin it.
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    micron wrote:
    Bruyneel wasn't Contador's DS, that's a matter of public record. But even as the team manager he did a dreadful job of managing the various egos and talents on that team. Sure, he brought in his favourite doctors from the old ONCE days to ensure that performance would be great, but his man management - and admin apparently, from all the decisions as to who to pay and not to pay - were not great.

    Any manager, no matter how abysmal they are, can make an orgnaisation look good for a while if there is good pre exisiting team morale and a tight pre existing structure, but once their ineptitude causes that structure to break down then there are problems. By his own admission Bruyneel either couldn't, or didn't want - feelings of disloyalty? - to establish a good working relationship with Contador, instead increasingly isolating him and making almost catastrophic decisions in order to keep one person happy. He was pretty much disinterested in Contador except as someone who got the team wins and only re-engaged when Armstrong returns. That aint good management, however he tries to spin it.

    Spoken by someone who was there at coalface to weigh up both sides and form an impartial opinion.
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !

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