postmen will strike themselves out of jobs
Comments
-
Frank the tank wrote:Are you for real ? I'm not calling and never have called anyone a monkey.
I said if you pay peanuts you get monkeys
I'd no more call some one a monkey than I'd pay someone in peanuts. It is merely an analogy.
Pay low wages and you get low skill levels.
I would guess (and I''m sure such a learned person as yourself will put me right, if I'm wrong) If you've just graduated you've not really lived in the real world and when your more worldly wise and had some of the idealistic sh1te knocked out of you by life and acquired a sense of realism I'll be more inclined to give your view credence.
Maybe your years (and years?) of experience should have taught you not to be wound up so easily. I know I do, but I can put it down to youth 8)
I don't agree with you, nor the sentiment. That's fair enough.
Anyway, the axe you want to grind about your work (and presumably graduates?), and my axe with your use of 'analogies', hasn't anything to do with the postal service anyway.Note: the above post is an opinion and not fact. It might be a lie.0 -
teagar wrote:redddraggon wrote:What sort of job does a History degree get you?
Civil service, PR, HR, Consultancy, most non-specific professional services, Teaching, Westminster, researchers for various companies, think-tanks, got a friend who's working for Fuji, another working for DSTL, a few who took on the aldi-graduated scheme, one who's working for the NAO, etc.
It was a genuine question BTW. My nephew wants to do a history degree, because he reckons he'll walk into a job after, but surely your competing with people who have any old type of essay or humanities subject?
He's thinking about doing teaching, but while I was researching a PGCE for myself (in science) it seems entry into a PGCE in History (and primary school) is very highly competitive compared to the other subjects. I told him if he's going to do History he'd better try and get into a Top university.
It's not as though you can just put in "Historian" into a job search like you can with "Materials Scientist" and get a load of hits is it?0 -
redddraggon wrote:teagar wrote:redddraggon wrote:What sort of job does a History degree get you?
Civil service, PR, HR, Consultancy, most non-specific professional services, Teaching, Westminster, researchers for various companies, think-tanks, got a friend who's working for Fuji, another working for DSTL, a few who took on the aldi-graduated scheme, one who's working for the NAO, etc.
It was a genuine question BTW. My nephew wants to do a history degree, because he reckons he'll walk into a job after, but surely your competing with people who have any old type of essay or humanities subject?
He's thinking about doing teaching, but while I was researching a PGCE for myself (in science) it seems entry into a PGCE in History (and primary school) is very highly competitive compared to the other subjects. I told him if he's going to do History he'd better try and get into a Top university.
It's not as though you can just put in "Historian" into a job search like you can with "Materials Scientist" and get a load of hits is it?
It cuts both ways.
It opens the doors to a big variety of different jobs. Any non-degree specific job you can go for. The skills you get with the degree are pretty transferable (being able to write, argue, analyse, reserach, deal with imperfect data/written data etc) across plenty of professionls.
Then again, since it's not specialised, you have to justify it a bit. Any job that require specific skills linked to specific degrees are naturally difficult to get.
Having said that, a good history degree from a good univeristy gets your foot in the door for the interview usually.
There are an awful lot of history graduates at the moment though - it's very popular, so it can be hard to stand out of the crowd of other graudates without a first.Note: the above post is an opinion and not fact. It might be a lie.0 -
Not "wound up" at all my owd.
Certainly have no problem with graduates , indeed my gaffer is a 22yr old graduate and despite her lack of engineering experience she gains our respect because she is a sharp cookie and respects the men who work for her within the dep't. On the other hand I've seen graduates at work who I feel (although I don't know you at all, I'm purely judging on how you "come across" come out of a similar pod to you) and they've come unstuck big style.
Got no axe to grind with my work, just the w@nkers in the boardroom who are driven by amongst otherthings greed and political dogma.Tail end Charlie
The above post may contain traces of sarcasm or/and bullsh*t.0 -
teagar - I see that you live in the Netherlands - are you British or Dutch?0
-
At the end of the day, it does seem that this strike is going to kill of the RM and whilst the papers can't always be trusted, a lot of the reports do suggest that the workers are onto quite a sweet deal and that they are striking to prevent the management bringing working conditions in line with what would be expected. In striking the workers aren't going to acheive anything, other than annoying much of the public and driving away key customers. Once that has happened the service won't be profitable and will HAVE to close. The strikers appear to be burying their own graves.You live and learn. At any rate, you live0
-
Back to the comment someone posed earlier about why everyone is not just given a blanket £30k a year salary, and we would all be happy. I read of some educational instition, which by way of a study gave everyone the same grade. The average people stayed as they were, because they were happy/no change. The ones below par, did not try any harder to improve, because they were given the improved grade and the ones in the higher echelon, were disheartened about the demotion. So, eventually there was no improvement and people gave up trying. We need somekind of financial carrot on a stick really
Socialism would be the ideal society if it worked, but it doesn't. All groups/societies need dynamic leaders and willing sheep/dogs bodies. It is a bit like the Animal Farm scenario(the George Orwell version...not the one with the picnic and the collie dog :shock:) if any of us got into parliament, there would be a good chance in 10 years time, we could have been claiming for the moat to be cleaned. When Blair came into power, that was when the animals took over the farm, we are all now stood at the farm window - and Labour, are very much like the Pigs walking around on 2 legs. Hell, the Labour manifesto is more right wing than the Conservative nowadays...which as Frank the Tank will possibly back me up on, is why the party's with the nutters do so well, in places like the Amber Valley. (Heanor/Cotmanhay - BNP won the local election)0 -
Frank the tank wrote:Are you for real ? I'm not calling and never have called anyone a monkey.
I said if you pay peanuts you get monkeys
I'd no more call some one a monkey than I'd pay someone in peanuts. It is merely an analogy.
Pay low wages and you get low skill levels.
I would guess (and I''m sure such a learned person as yourself will put me right, if I'm wrong) If you've just graduated you've not really lived in the real world and when your more worldly wise and had some of the idealistic sh1te knocked out of you by life and acquired a sense of realism I'll be more inclined to give your view credence.
You're assuming every economy is flat and that £30k+ p/a has the same buying power the world over. Skilled people will work for less than that in China, India etc because the price of goods/services in their economy is much less. Therefore they can live a decent life on less than we would consider a living wage.
Now, should their economy find itself in a situation where demand for their products is rising and there's not enough skilled workers to go around, their wages will rise as companies bid for their services. I've seen this myself in the specialist engineering sector I work with over the last 5 years. I've also seen the level of regulation that goes into safety critical parts before they are allowed to be sold. Quality is an exhaustive process which the far east has mastered much, much better than Europe/America.
You can't build your economy on posties. You need to offer the world something it wants. In Britain's case currently, that ain't a lot. I think we do well in design and task engineering and that's about it."In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
teagar wrote:redddraggon wrote:What sort of job does a History degree get you?
Civil service, PR, HR, Consultancy, most non-specific professional services, Teaching, Westminster, researchers for various companies, think-tanks, got a friend who's working for Fuji, another working for DSTL, a few who took on the aldi-graduated scheme, one who's working for the NAO, etc.
McDonalds, they hire a lot of graduates.
0 -
I have noticed on here that due to the nature of the discussions, we in the UK have diametrically opposed ideals and concepts when it comes to work and opinions. I think when the Royal Mail hires 30,000 staff, double than last year to cover the prospect of an industrial action and our Labour government does not step in, the fat cats have won yet again.
The Royal Mail, like the NHS isn't perfect, but does need help.
Teagar, whilst we have also had discussions before, I think what Frank is trying to put to you is that having an opinion is fine but a fuller opinion in life/work is based on huiristic knowledge and over a period of time.
I understand you are 21 and recently graduated ? I am not knocking your abilities and opinions but I'd had my first war when you were 3 years old. Life and time will alter your opinions, views and optimism. The workers should fight against the Royal Mails plans, we should support the blokes on the floor and get behind the Trade Unions again.0 -
I suspect that the CWU, despite finding themselves being royally shafted by Mandelson et al, still contribute via the union's political fund to the 'Labour' party whos' policies have been so inimical to their members in particular, and other workers in general.
How has this gone on so long,? and when will the TU's pull their financial choke-chain on this govt gone out of control?0 -
six and two threes for me in terms of blame for this. I understand one of the gripes on the side of the union is that POsites will now be asked to return to the sorting office and finish their contracted hours if they finish deliveries early. Can't see them garnering much sympathy for that.
On the other hand, I recall the RM moaning that they were losing £1m a day whilst employing celebrities to appear on adverts for what, at the time, amounted to a monopoly service.
Like any large industry, there are efficiencies to be made, but in this case, the management seems hapless and the workers unwilling to change the way they work to provide a modern service that can compete for business and, thus, secure it's future. Like it or not, it will never be completely nationalised agian, as the money simply isn't there."In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
-
I Don't know the ins and outs of the postal dispute but what I do know, and this is common to all industrial disputes; strike action is the last resort and it is not a course that is entered into lightly.
It's tough when to survive when you have no income and still all the usual outgoings. Also I believe before strike action is undertaken you have to be very clear what you hope to achieve and under what circumstances you're prepared to go back.
I know a few people from my area who "were out" during the miners strike but were eventually starved back to work despite the fundraising efforts of local trade unionists.
IMHO the ordinary working masses no longer have any representation (New Labour being Tories with red rosettes) and with this recession we'll find employers will exploit it to the full and we'll gradually see our workers rights being (slowly or not so slowly) being eroded away. Getting screwed to the floor 'cos there's 3,000,000 men who want your job mate. Eventually it will not be a case of can I afford to go on strike, but can I afford not to.
As I posted earlier, I could have a job for life if I worked for 50p/hour. Unfortunately at that rate I would not have very much of a life either in quality or length, but, hey ho there's another 3,000 000 available to replace me and my colleagues.Tail end Charlie
The above post may contain traces of sarcasm or/and bullsh*t.0 -
Depends where in the world you are earning 50p an hour. OK you're never going to be rich on it. But there are locations where you can just about live on it...
At the end of the day, capatalism can be a bit of a s*** for the people at the bottom. But almost every time communism has been implemented it's been fraught with issues.
As a side question what jobs exist for the "ordinary working masses" these days? Manufacturing has either been taken abroad or streamlined to the point where there is a terrific lack of jobs for the unqualified. Putting them into "universities" (note the speech marks!) has allowed New Labour to massage the unemployment stats but does not solve the core issue. Add in the ever swelling population and it seems our once proud Island will soon be fubar. But then again, with fossil fuels predicted to run out in 60 years time, the whole of mankind is a bit ****edYou live and learn. At any rate, you live0 -
Toshmund wrote:Back to the comment someone posed earlier about why everyone is not just given a blanket £30k a year salary, and we would all be happy. I read of some educational instition, which by way of a study gave everyone the same grade. The average people stayed as they were, because they were happy/no change. The ones below par, did not try any harder to improve, because they were given the improved grade and the ones in the higher echelon, were disheartened about the demotion. So, eventually there was no improvement and people gave up trying. We need somekind of financial carrot on a stick really
Socialism would be the ideal society if it worked, but it doesn't. All groups/societies need dynamic leaders and willing sheep/dogs bodies. It is a bit like the Animal Farm scenario(the George Orwell version...not the one with the picnic and the collie dog :shock:) if any of us got into parliament, there would be a good chance in 10 years time, we could have been claiming for the moat to be cleaned. When Blair came into power, that was when the animals took over the farm, we are all now stood at the farm window - and Labour, are very much like the Pigs walking around on 2 legs. Hell, the Labour manifesto is more right wing than the Conservative nowadays...which as Frank the Tank will possibly back me up on, is why the party's with the nutters do so well, in places like the Amber Valley. (Heanor/Cotmanhay - BNP won the local election)
I kind of agree to a point. I do however think that wages and salaries are far too varied at present. IMO a job should be about acheivement/performance, not how much money you can levy out of shareholders. :?
I think certain socialist ideals can indeed work. The thing with Animal Farm (often cited) is that it is as much about the threats of greed and how people are not willing to effectively as it is about failed socialism. (Been a while since I read it tbh though).
I think the study into grades is a classic example of how people do like to acheive, I think this is a separate issue to finance.
A good case in point for MPs expenses since you mentioned this curiosity is the Reading MP - the guy has claimed nothing in the past few years and is an example to all imo. Sadly he doesn't get the press or recognition he deserves and even more sadly he's retireing soon too.
I think the BNP are pretty useless once in power. One council said their BNP counciller took the £70k a year salary and then attended NO meetings whatsoever! LOL
Useless and lazy. 0 -
I AM A POSTMAN.
I just feel the need to say that first, as I got to page 3 of this thread, and it seems very little to do with the dispute.
RM and the Union are having their own little blinking competition, prior to our privatisation.
Sadly this game, is all about jobs and bonuses.
The CWU jobs (union bosses) and the managements bonuses.
Us, the posties have very little to do with whats going on.
I work in a delivery office that has a union rep who doesn't instantly say no.
So therefore we have found ourselves in a position where we have been asked to strike over conditions that we have had in place for over a year.
Other offices, London, have not changed since 2007, therefore still very much stuck in the 1970's, which involves practices that don't happen in 'the real world'.
I do not trust RM they will cut us to the bare bones, and then some more.
I do not trust the union as they are fighting battles from the past and because of that are not able to deal with the present and future.
Over the past 5 years everyone from the EU, the current labour government, Peter Mandleson, Leighton & Crozier, and CWU have screwed over my job.
All I want to do is deliver post for 8 hours a day, it really shouldn't be this difficult.
For the record I went on strike 2 years ago, we lost, we've moved on (some have anyway).0 -
we really are a country full of (with a small c) little conservatives! :roll:0
-
The London-centric unions run RM, have learnt nothing from the past and are destined to go the way of those other union dinosaurs, the printers and miners, into extinction.
RM managers are predominantly old postmen who have a vested interest in keeping things the way they are, and certainly even if they were allowed to, have no stomach for standing up to their old friends in the union.
On the other hand, Crozier is a dangerous political puppet who has little idea of how the mail system actually works or what it is for -- is it a business or a public service?
RM should have been taken over by Deutshe Post back in 2002. They went through a similar period of modernization 15 years ago and, like the Dutch Post Office (now called TNT), have, thanks to consistent support from their respective governments, emerged as reinvigorated businesses that also serve the community.0 -
Frank the tank wrote:
The company I work for make aero engines.
I do hope you feel comfortable the next time you're 38,000ft in the air and you think.....
I can relax, these propulsion units were manufactured by people working for the minimal amount of remuneration.
Pay peanuts you get monkey's.
I'm not sure about that. Do you remember the build quality of BL in the late 1970s?0 -
Gotte wrote:Frank the tank wrote:
The company I work for make aero engines.
I do hope you feel comfortable the next time you're 38,000ft in the air and you think.....
I can relax, these propulsion units were manufactured by people working for the minimal amount of remuneration.
Pay peanuts you get monkey's.
I'm not sure about that. Do you remember the build quality of BL in the late 1970s?
i used to work for that same company, what you dont understand is the differemnce between light engineering and mass manufactur, one britain excels at and the other its seems to have trouble. (last i remember that aero engine manufacturer made 200 units a year - small in quantity engineering)
i to breath a sigh of releif when i see that well known symbol on the side of an aero engine
i left the country a week before blair was elected - not that the place i moved to is much better ( but my quality of life is)0 -
I suppose the point I was trying to make was that you don't necessarily have to only pay peanuts to get monkeys (no offence to you or your stint at BL). You can pay through the nose and get the same result.
My dad used to have an Morris Marina. Now there was a car he was glad to get rid of. Not so much for the design as the build quality. I once wound the window down and it disappeared into the door, only to be retrieved by having the panel taken off. The front lights flashed when you pressed the brake (oh no, not at all dangerours) and the bootlid came off at one of the hinges, as well, and that was all in the first week or two of having it. When my father came to pick it up after it had been repaired,the boot lid was actually a different colour.
"Oh, we put it on another one," the mechanic said. "We didn't have one one that colour for the other car. Lucky for us, yours came in. We've ordered one for you. It'll be a month."
Ahh, the good old days.
BTW, where are you living now?0 -
Gotte wrote:I suppose the point I was trying to make was that you don't necessarily have to only pay peanuts to get monkeys (no offence to you or your stint at BL). You can pay through the nose and get the same result.
My dad used to have an Morris Marina. Now there was a car he was glad to get rid of. Not so much for the design as the build quality. I once wound the window down and it disappeared into the door, only to be retrieved by having the panel taken off. The front lights flashed when you pressed the brake (oh no, not at all dangerours) and the bootlid came off at one of the hinges, as well, and that was all in the first week or two of having it. When my father came to pick it up after it had been repaired,the boot lid was actually a different colour.
"Oh, we put it on another one," the mechanic said. "We didn't have one one that colour for the other car. Lucky for us, yours came in. We've ordered one for you. It'll be a month."
Ahh, the good old days.
BTW, where are you living now?
Slightly off topic, but that reminds me...
When my Grandad was doing his driving test, he took it in his own car, which was a very old, not particularly well-built piece of engineering. He came up to a T-junction, put on the handbrake and his examiner's seat (with examiner in it) fell through the floor.
I digress...0 -
johnfinch wrote:
Slightly off topic, but that reminds me...
When my Grandad was doing his driving test, he took it in his own car, which was a very old, not particularly well-built piece of engineering. He came up to a T-junction, put on the handbrake and his examiner's seat (with examiner in it) fell through the floor.
I digress... 0 -
PostieJohn wrote:I AM A POSTMAN.
I just feel the need to say that first, as I got to page 3 of this thread, and it seems very little to do with the dispute.
RM and the Union are having their own little blinking competition, prior to our privatisation.
Sadly this game, is all about jobs and bonuses.
The CWU jobs (union bosses) and the managements bonuses.
Us, the posties have very little to do with whats going on.
I work in a delivery office that has a union rep who doesn't instantly say no.
So therefore we have found ourselves in a position where we have been asked to strike over conditions that we have had in place for over a year.
Other offices, London, have not changed since 2007, therefore still very much stuck in the 1970's, which involves practices that don't happen in 'the real world'.
I do not trust RM they will cut us to the bare bones, and then some more.
I do not trust the union as they are fighting battles from the past and because of that are not able to deal with the present and future.
Over the past 5 years everyone from the EU, the current labour government, Peter Mandleson, Leighton & Crozier, and CWU have screwed over my job.
All I want to do is deliver post for 8 hours a day, it really shouldn't be this difficult.
For the record I went on strike 2 years ago, we lost, we've moved on (some have anyway).
Best post so far. Rational, realistic and, unfortunately, probably very prescient.0 -
I work in manufacturing. When I started here in 1997 at least 400 people wroked here. Now it is less than half that. I blame a lot of automation and improvements that are too reliant on 1 man fixing instead of 5 men doing.
There's a problem with the "blame" bit here. The reason why people in Britain have things like houses, central heating, TVs, holidays, healthcare, etc rather than living as subsistance farmers is that over human history we have continually worked out ways of PRODUCING MORE with LESS LABOUR. This is called productivity growth. The time saved is then available to do other useful things. This is why so far every generation has had a better standard of living than the one before. If we stop getting more productive (and this extends to services as much as making things) we will stop getting better off.
Obviously there is a risk that when organisations get more productive they need less people. Those people need to find other things to do. That may need people to move, retrain, etc. This is not new, it has always been true (just think of the people freed up by agricultural mechanisation in the 19th century moving in to industry). Making these changes can be hard for the people effected. Government can do a bit to help (retraining, benefits, development grants, etc). What is a complete non-starter is to stick our heads in the sand and hope thatth need for productivity growth goes away. It won't - it is fundamental to human progress.
On a different topic. Frank, you seem to be suggesting that there is a drive for Rolls-Royce to pay minimum wage to the highly skilled labour that manufactures aero engine components and assembles aero engines. That surprises me, I know the company quite well - there appears to be a lot of people keen to work for Rolls, they have lots of apprenticeships, they have been investing a lot in new factories in the UK (i.e., they chose NOT to build those factories in Poland, China etc). These are high end manufacturing jobs not minimum wage jobs. I think the skill levels required to assemble a Trent are rather =different from those needed to deliver the post.
J0 -
Jedster, R-R are not endevouring to pay it's workforce the monimum wage, I never said that. They are, however like a lot of other multi-nationals looking to cut it's wage bill, one way or another.
I have worked for them for many years and they are a very good employer who offer good remuneration and conditions.
My general point is the conditions/rights workers currently enjoy, wherever, have generally been earned over the years through trade union activity in the past.Tail end Charlie
The above post may contain traces of sarcasm or/and bullsh*t.0 -
Frank,My general point is the conditions/rights workers currently enjoy, wherever, have generally been earned over the years through trade union activity in the past.
I'm not denegrating unions here but I'd argue that the rights and conditions are more often determined by what is required to attract people with the necessary skills and capabilities. There are some specific examples where pay, terms and conditions have been kept artificially high by union power - i.e., there's a long waiting list of suitable people who would like to do the jobs (think Tube drivers, Firemen).
J0
