postmen will strike themselves out of jobs

finchy

ragtop wrote:

I can't seem why the guys being employed to fill in while a bunch of workshy union twats want to bunk off and stand round a burning barrel are getting stick.

I think you'll find that they want to work, which is why they are striking. If they were workshy they'd find ways of staying on benefits.

teagar

Frank the tank wrote:

What will happen if the RM were to be broken up the private courier firms would snaffle up the profitable bits making huge prorits for themselves/shareholders the unprofitable bits as I mentioned before.................well, go f*ck yourself there's nothing to be made out of you, only a loss.

Just read some of the previous posts I ask this question, what's the difference between a binman doing another job and a consultant surgeon topping up their already considerable salary by doing "private" work very often using fascilities/staff supplied by the tax payer NHS to further line their own pockets.

Just thought I'd chuck that one in.

I understand that there are considerable social costs to consider, but the economic arguments relating directly to the privatisation of royal mail (as opposed to the workers who would inevitably lose their jobs), appear to work out fine.

My experience of the postal company in the netherlands, TNT, which runs the national post is excellent. Post is not a gripe issue in the Netherlands.

It's right for any business to remove the unprofitable bits. That just makes common sense.

Many other countries have no issues with a private postal service, so I can't see how it would be a problem (other than, naturally, the upheaval the initial takeover would cause) in the UK.


Privatising trains on the other hand....

Frank the tank

ragtop wrote:

I can't seem why the guys being employed to fill in while a bunch of workshy union twats want to bunk off and stand round a burning barrel are getting stick.

If they don't want to work i am sure some of the thousands of people who have been left jobless in the current climate will gladly take their jobs.

If the Royal Mail had any ounce of balls they should tell the unions to 'F' off and sack the bloody lot of them. Okay it means we'll have a bit of disruption while they recruit and train new staff but it will stop unions destroying whats left of british industry.

Just look at what happened to Rover. The company needed to make changes to keep afloat, unions got involved and stopped it, company fails.

There will be people who disagree with me and i will probably get shouted at by some of you who have been in unions. I don't care. Be thankful you have a job even if the money or the hours aren't quite what you like........there are thousands who would work in your place so they can feed their families.

Maybe if thepostmen pulled their fingers out and delivered some post rather than whingeing about their hours or pay the public might support them.

There speaketh the tory maxim.

If the way to economic prosperity was a low wage ecconomy India would have been a superpower years ago.

I'll be absolutely honest.

I DON'T WANT A JOB.

















i WANT A LIVING WAGE NO MORE NO LESS.

To take you edict I could have a job for life if I worked for 50p/hour unfortunately I and my family would starve/freeze to death. But hey ho as long as the job I was doing got done and kept the wheels of industry turning and making vast profits for the employer everything is fine.

Unless of course you'd do the job for 40p/hour.

finchy

teagar wrote:

Market forces are quite simple. If it's cheaper/better to make it elsewhere then it should be. Germany has a successful manufacturing industry, which exports an awful lot because it has managed to become specialised in high level/high quality manufacturing. It's not about government intervention. Any intervention on part of trade is not allowed under the trading laws that most of the world (certainly the US and EU) abide by (most of the time).


As for subsidising, your own industry: that's sometihng that's largely illegal internationally. The car subsidy thing (buy back your old car for £2000) by passes the law because it is internationally agreed upon (at least, within the EU), rather than focusing on any one country.

If a country is losing manufacturing it's because it's not efficient to do it there anymore. Living costs/overheads too expensive etc.

The consumer eventually wins out, because it gets the goods at the cheapest price, thus losing inefficiencey (which is what the royal mail is suffering from, hence all the hassle).

Anyway, the British public would never stand for subsidising labour, partly because it's tricky, but most of all, because they already feel over-taxed!

The problem with market forces is that they can sometimes leave people up s**t creek without a paddle. What seems efficient one year may come to be seen as a massive, costly mistake a bit later - such as exporting manufacturing jobs while your currency is strong, and then getting hit hard when your currency weakens.

On the RM question, is it really that bad? Having lived in France, I can promise you that our postal service is far better than theirs - I don't know about other countries.

Frank the tank

teagar wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

fast as fupp wrote:

teagar wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

[

Indeed. I used to teach English in a Slovak factory for a very large, very profitable multi-national company. The workers were paid an average of £1 an hour, and Slovak taxes are among the lowest in the EU. The company still decided to shut up shop and move business to China, citing high costs.

What chance does manufacturing have in the UK, unless it is heavily subsidised?

Germany has plenty of manufacturing.

It's about what you make!

but the german government will subsidise jobs rather than have them lost to 'market forces' (greedy capitalists trying to increase profits)- the ongoing ope/ magner saga for instance

Precisely.

Market forces are quite simple. If it's cheaper/better to make it elsewhere then it should be. Germany has a successful manufacturing industry, which exports an awful lot because it has managed to become specialised in high level/high quality manufacturing. It's not about government intervention. Any intervention on part of trade is not allowed under the trading laws that most of the world (certainly the US and EU) abide by (most of the time).


As for subsidising, your own industry: that's sometihng that's largely illegal internationally. The car subsidy thing (buy back your old car for £2000) by passes the law because it is internationally agreed upon (at least, within the EU), rather than focusing on any one country.

If a country is losing manufacturing it's because it's not efficient to do it there anymore. Living costs/overheads too expensive etc.

The consumer eventually wins out, because it gets the goods at the cheapest price, thus losing inefficiencey (which is what the royal mail is suffering from, hence all the hassle).

Anyway, the British public would never stand for subsidising labour, partly because it's tricky, but most of all, because they already feel over-taxed!

You still haven't answered my question about how you would feel eeing 38.000ft in the air with a propultion unit manufactured by labour being paid the minimal amount.

Peanuts/monkeys.

cougie

I like this article : http://tinyurl.com/yjqqvju

teagar

Frank the tank wrote:

[

You still haven't answered my question about how you would feel eeing 38.000ft in the air with a propultion unit manufactured by labour being paid the minimal amount.

Peanuts/monkeys.

I avoided it on the grounds that by answering i'd begiving you some legitimacy to call someone a Monkey because they're not from the UK.

Anway, I'm not opposing the strike per say. I havn't given an opinion on the strike.

I just felt that from my experience, privatisation of mail seems to have been reasonably successful on a macro scale, so saying that privatisation won't work for the mail is a bit incorrect. It probably won't work for those working for it, like I've said.

finchy

teagar wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

[

You still haven't answered my question about how you would feel eeing 38.000ft in the air with a propultion unit manufactured by labour being paid the minimal amount.

Peanuts/monkeys.

I avoided it on the grounds that by answering i'd begiving you some legitimacy to call someone a Monkey because they're not from the UK.

I don't think that's what Frank was getting at.

markos1963

I see the Daily Mail brigade are out in force now. Its alright for them to get paid £50k+ a year just as long as everybody else is prepared to work for minimum(or less) to satisfy their own sense of proportion. And if its not good enough then you can go on the scrap heap and we'll get some other suckers to do it. I still haven't had it explained to me why a banker in the city is worth £200k a year but if he 's in intensive care after crashing his Porsche the nurse that's keeping him alive is only worth £20k, or why the binman who's prepared to get up early come rain or shine to collect the bankers rubbish because he's too lazy to take it to the dump is only worth £11k. Call me a communist or naive but if the average wage in this country is about £30k why isn't that enough for everybody. We could all buy a house, run a car,have a couple of bikes in the shed and food in our bellies.

teagar

johnfinch wrote:

teagar wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

[

You still haven't answered my question about how you would feel eeing 38.000ft in the air with a propultion unit manufactured by labour being paid the minimal amount.

Peanuts/monkeys.

I avoided it on the grounds that by answering i'd begiving you some legitimacy to call someone a Monkey because they're not from the UK.

I don't think that's what Frank was getting at.

I'm quite aware of that.

finchy

teagar wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

teagar wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

[

You still haven't answered my question about how you would feel eeing 38.000ft in the air with a propultion unit manufactured by labour being paid the minimal amount.

Peanuts/monkeys.

I avoided it on the grounds that by answering i'd begiving you some legitimacy to call someone a Monkey because they're not from the UK.

I don't think that's what Frank was getting at.

I'm quite aware of that.

Thought so, just thought there was a chance that you'd misread his post.

Stone Glider

When I was on the National Executive Committee of a Trades Union (it was a mistake, honet!) I learned that strike action by a union was viewed as an admission of failure by the union. They will try everything before resorting to that "nuclear option". If you are prepared to believe that fact your opinion of disputes changes.

RM management is "incentivized" by financial rewards of huge amounts to achieve "efficiencies" but reward the employees not at all. The Treasury deprived RM of investment when it was a "cash cow" and Government inserted a management to bleed the the animal dry, long after those conditions had changed. If the current management plan takes place we will end up with a partial and expensive business which will collapse under the weight of it's own ineptitude.

Frank the tank

teagar wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

teagar wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

[

You still haven't answered my question about how you would feel eeing 38.000ft in the air with a propultion unit manufactured by labour being paid the minimal amount.

Peanuts/monkeys.

I avoided it on the grounds that by answering i'd begiving you some legitimacy to call someone a Monkey because they're not from the UK.

I don't think that's what Frank was getting at.

I'm quite aware of that.

Not a racist comment, you read that into it.

Forget royal mail answer the question Teagar.

How comfortable would you feel knowing your life depends on parts being made by very low paid workers with little skill.

gkerr4

my experience of RM is not good - a friend of my sis-in-laws worked in a sorting office where he enjoyed a very good salary, low hours, lots of leave and an additional fortnights 'sick' leave every year (where it was classed as the norm!)

in addition, the service was useless - certainly at my previous (urban) address - things would be late if they ever turned up and in 9 years, every single "card" or hand written letter (and honestly i mean EVERY single - I can't think of receving one which wasn't) - had been opened to see if it had any cash in it.

so my impression of RM - lazy, overpaid & thieving.

Things need to change - this strike should be the start of that change..

fast as fupp

gkerr4 wrote:

my experience of RM is not good - a friend of my sis-in-laws worked in a sorting office where he enjoyed a very good salary, low hours, lots of leave and an additional fortnights 'sick' leave every year (where it was classed as the norm!)

in addition, the service was useless - certainly at my previous (urban) address - things would be late if they ever turned up and in 9 years, every single "card" or hand written letter (and honestly i mean EVERY single - I can't think of receving one which wasn't) - had been opened to see if it had any cash in it.

so my impression of RM - lazy, overpaid & thieving.

Things need to change - this strike should be the start of that change..

so you put up with this for 9 years without saying anything- the royal mail have their own investigation unit you know

gkerr4

fast as fupp wrote:

gkerr4 wrote:

my experience of RM is not good - a friend of my sis-in-laws worked in a sorting office where he enjoyed a very good salary, low hours, lots of leave and an additional fortnights 'sick' leave every year (where it was classed as the norm!)

in addition, the service was useless - certainly at my previous (urban) address - things would be late if they ever turned up and in 9 years, every single "card" or hand written letter (and honestly i mean EVERY single - I can't think of receving one which wasn't) - had been opened to see if it had any cash in it.

so my impression of RM - lazy, overpaid & thieving.

Things need to change - this strike should be the start of that change..

so you put up with this for 9 years without saying anything- the royal mail have their own investigation unit you know

i complained quite a lot - it never got anywhere - I assumed they were all in cahoots and it was "the done thing"

I have to say - we have moved out to the country and my regular 'postie' out here is quite charming and - a lovely pleasant guy actually. and certainly no problems like we used to have. Assume it's a different sort office.
the previous years take a bit of getting over though.

fast as fupp

gkerr4 wrote:

fast as fupp wrote:

gkerr4 wrote:

my experience of RM is not good - a friend of my sis-in-laws worked in a sorting office where he enjoyed a very good salary, low hours, lots of leave and an additional fortnights 'sick' leave every year (where it was classed as the norm!)

in addition, the service was useless - certainly at my previous (urban) address - things would be late if they ever turned up and in 9 years, every single "card" or hand written letter (and honestly i mean EVERY single - I can't think of receving one which wasn't) - had been opened to see if it had any cash in it.

so my impression of RM - lazy, overpaid & thieving.

Things need to change - this strike should be the start of that change..

so you put up with this for 9 years without saying anything- the royal mail have their own investigation unit you know

i complained quite a lot - it never got anywhere - I assumed they were all in cahoots and it was "the done thing"

I have to say - we have moved out to the country and my regular 'postie' out here is quite charming and - a lovely pleasant guy actually. and certainly no problems like we used to have. Assume it's a different sort office.
the previous years take a bit of getting over though.

he'll be on the dole soon- then youll have some mickey mouse company charging you the earth for your post as youre out in the sticks how modern!

eh

How comfortable would you feel knowing your life depends on parts being made by very low paid workers with little skill.

Depends what the item is but many safety critical parts will be subject to QA procedures, inpsection at multiple stages and then final sign off by some qualified. To be honest while typically cheaper, low skilled workers probably produce more poor qulaity items, a well qulaified, highly paid worker can produce crap if they aren't concentrating, and that happens more times than you'd like to think.

stevenw

This might give a little insight into what's going on at Delivery Offices across the country.
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v31/n18/maya01_.html

teagar

Frank the tank wrote:

[

Not a racist comment, you read that into it.

Forget royal mail answer the question Teagar.

How comfortable would you feel knowing your life depends on parts being made by very low paid workers with little skill.

We've had this exact discussion before.

Given that I havn't heard of any serious plane crashes due to poor workmanship, I'll assume it's fine. I doubt there's been an increase in accidents as a result of relocating production.

As eh said, there's enough quality control.


But I don't like the nature of the question because it's making far too many assumptions.

My life is dependant on how things are made every day. What's to say this computer won't eletrocute me or the brakes on my car or bicycle won't stop working? What if the house I live in collapses? etc.

The people who make them are not monkeys, and they're certainly not inferior to you!

Frank the tank

eh wrote:

How comfortable would you feel knowing your life depends on parts being made by very low paid workers with little skill.

Depends what the item is but many safety critical parts will be subject to QA procedures, inpsection at multiple stages and then final sign off by some qualified. To be honest while typically cheaper, low skilled workers probably produce more poor qulaity items, a well qulaified, highly paid worker can produce crap if they aren't concentrating, and that happens more times than you'd like to think.

While ever the parts made on sub-contract have to come into us for final inspection there is a safety net. Once left to there own devices and the over-checks are no longer in place because we've been deemed too costly and shut down errors will get through. The parts are cheaper (to manufacture) profits are up, safety is comprimised.

Unfortunately as an airline passenger the choice is not quite the same as should I buy vacuum cleaner "A" or vacuum cleaner "B".

Frank the tank

teagar wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

[

Not a racist comment, you read that into it.

Forget royal mail answer the question Teagar.

How comfortable would you feel knowing your life depends on parts being made by very low paid workers with little skill.

We've had this exact discussion before.

Given that I havn't heard of any serious plane crashes due to poor workmanship, I'll assume it's fine. I doubt there's been an increase in accidents as a result of relocating production.

As eh said, there's enough quality control.


But I don't like the nature of the question because it's making far too many assumptions.

My life is dependant on how things are made every day. What's to say this computer won't eletrocute me or the brakes on my car or bicycle won't stop working? What if the house I live in collapses? etc.

The people who make them are not monkeys, and they're certainly not inferior to you!

The saying is exactly that I'm not infering I am better than anyone unlike the condescending attitude you take towards me. I've worked in my trade for thirty plus years and I know what I'm on about within the industry I work in,

What industry do you work in?

downfader

ragtop wrote:

I can't seem why the guys being employed to fill in while a bunch of workshy union twats want to bunk off and stand round a burning barrel are getting stick.

If they don't want to work i am sure some of the thousands of people who have been left jobless in the current climate will gladly take their jobs.

If the Royal Mail had any ounce of balls they should tell the unions to 'F' off and sack the bloody lot of them. Okay it means we'll have a bit of disruption while they recruit and train new staff but it will stop unions destroying whats left of british industry.

Just look at what happened to Rover. The company needed to make changes to keep afloat, unions got involved and stopped it, company fails.

There will be people who disagree with me and i will probably get shouted at by some of you who have been in unions. I don't care. Be thankful you have a job even if the money or the hours aren't quite what you like........there are thousands who would work in your place so they can feed their families.

Maybe if thepostmen pulled their fingers out and delivered some post rather than whingeing about their hours or pay the public might support them.

You dont seem to understand - once those posties are gone - thats it! They wont replace them with the great unemployed. This is slowly happening all across the UK, not just in the RM. It could be you next, and saying "F off" kind of undo's the efforts of those that have actually fought tooth and nail to provide you with things like holiday pay, sickness pay - actually KEEPING your job if you become sick, a basic rate of pay, etc.

IMO Rover failed because of poor management, as did many of the banks that closed doors over the past 4 years.

teagar

Frank the tank wrote:

teagar wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

[

Not a racist comment, you read that into it.

Forget royal mail answer the question Teagar.

How comfortable would you feel knowing your life depends on parts being made by very low paid workers with little skill.

We've had this exact discussion before.

Given that I havn't heard of any serious plane crashes due to poor workmanship, I'll assume it's fine. I doubt there's been an increase in accidents as a result of relocating production.

As eh said, there's enough quality control.


But I don't like the nature of the question because it's making far too many assumptions.

My life is dependant on how things are made every day. What's to say this computer won't eletrocute me or the brakes on my car or bicycle won't stop working? What if the house I live in collapses? etc.

The people who make them are not monkeys, and they're certainly not inferior to you!

The saying is exactly that I'm not infering I am better than anyone unlike the condescending attitude you take towards me. I've worked in my trade for thirty plus years and I know what I'm on about within the industry I work in,

What industry do you work in?

I just graduated with a degree in history - specialising in literary analysis with a view to racism.

I'm not condecending, I disagree with your attitude towards the lot you're calling monkeys.

redddraggon

What sort of job does a History degree get you?

downfader

redddraggon wrote:

What sort of job does a History degree get you?

Teacher, lecturer, academic in historical research, archeology, quite a few iirc.

Frank the tank

Are you for real ? I'm not calling and never have called anyone a monkey.

I said if you pay peanuts you get monkeys

I'd no more call some one a monkey than I'd pay someone in peanuts. It is merely an analogy.

Pay low wages and you get low skill levels.

I would guess (and I''m sure such a learned person as yourself will put me right, if I'm wrong) If you've just graduated you've not really lived in the real world and when your more worldly wise and had some of the idealistic sh1te knocked out of you by life and acquired a sense of realism I'll be more inclined to give your view credence.

teagar

redddraggon wrote:

What sort of job does a History degree get you?

Civil service, PR, HR, Consultancy, most non-specific professional services, Teaching, Westminster, researchers for various companies, think-tanks, got a friend who's working for Fuji, another working for DSTL, a few who took on the aldi-graduated scheme, one who's working for the NAO, etc.

markos1963

redddraggon wrote:

What sort of job does a History degree get you?

Daily Mail features writer?

Frank the tank

teagar wrote:

redddraggon wrote:

What sort of job does a History degree get you?

Civil service, PR, HR, Consultancy, most non-specific professional services, Teaching, Westminster, researchers for various companies, think-tanks, got a friend who's working for Fuji, another working for DSTL, a few who took on the aldi-graduated scheme, one who's working for the NAO, etc.

Well we'd be up sh1t creek without any of them wouldn't we.