postmen will strike themselves out of jobs

fast as fupp

those greedy posties!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009 ... ks-bailout


rah! rah! rah! were going to kill the oiks! :shock:

markos1963

Whether its right for the postal workers to strike or not is up to them, having been in a similar position recently I was faced with the same dilemma. I based my descision on the fact that if we split in the face of management bullying then the benefits we worked hard for would be lost.

What a lot of people who bash the Unions don't realise is that many of the things they enjoy in their jobs were won by ordinary hard working men and women. Holidays, sick leave, equality, pensions and a decent protected contract of employment. So before bemoaning the Unions about 'militantcy' just think about what your job is giving you.

As for retraining, I wonder what a miner who retrained in the financial services and is now redundant would have to say about it! People can't and shouldn't have to keep changing their career's, do we want to keep paying taxes for people to retrain three or four times in their working life? I for one want my doctor to gain as much experience as possible in their working life.

finchy

markos1963 wrote:

Whether its right for the postal workers to strike or not is up to them, having been in a similar position recently I was faced with the same dilemma. I based my descision on the fact that if we split in the face of management bullying then the benefits we worked hard for would be lost.

What a lot of people who bash the Unions don't realise is that many of the things they enjoy in their jobs were won by ordinary hard working men and women. Holidays, sick leave, equality, pensions and a decent protected contract of employment. So before bemoaning the Unions about 'militantcy' just think about what your job is giving you.

As for retraining, I wonder what a miner who retrained in the financial services and is now redundant would have to say about it! People can't and shouldn't have to keep changing their career's, do we want to keep paying taxes for people to retrain three or four times in their working life? I for one want my doctor to gain as much experience as possible in their working life.

+1

Frank the tank

Hucknall was built on coal, and then later came the hoisery industry and Rolls Royce.

Wen I was 20 within three miles of my home were three coal mines, seven or eight clothing manufacturers (jeager and Vyella, top quality manufacturers inc) Dowty a company manufacturing mainly hydraulic pit props etc and Rolls Royce aero engines.

There are now, no mines one factory which make socks, Dowty have gone and Rolls Royce ( who are gradually "winding down") there is a garden pesticide firm DOFF with a lot of seasonal employment.

A lot of miners who lost work re-trained at R-R but IMHO they'll never be engineers, but at least they've been trained to R-Rs standards.

I'm with Markos1963, most of what ordinary working men have is down to generations past who have stood up in the face of utmost hardship an imprisonment. This is now being recindered by a spineless generation and until we're back at "ground zero" the working man will continue to be oppressed.

finchy

Frank the tank wrote:

I'm with Markos1963, most of what ordinary working men have is down to generations past who have stood up in the face of utmost hardship an imprisonment. This is now being recindered by a spineless generation and until we're back at "ground zero" the working man will continue to be oppressed.

I agree with the first point, that you have to fight to ensure you get a better deal, but I only half agree with spineless generation.

As you and others have said, manufacturers (and increasingly service companies) can just jump ship and move to cheaper countries with relative ease, which means that people these days are so scared of the UK being "uncompetitive" that they feel that standing up for their rights will mean jobs being lost and the situation being made even worse.

That, coupled with the lack of solidarity common in this country - people will complain about jobs being lost, but just love their cheap goods - puts workers into a very difficult situation.

markos1963

johnfinch wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

I'm with Markos1963, most of what ordinary working men have is down to generations past who have stood up in the face of utmost hardship an imprisonment. This is now being recindered by a spineless generation and until we're back at "ground zero" the working man will continue to be oppressed.

I agree with the first point, that you have to fight to ensure you get a better deal, but I only half agree with spineless generation.

As you and others have said, manufacturers (and increasingly service companies) can just jump ship and move to cheaper countries with relative ease, which means that people these days are so scared of the UK being "uncompetitive" that they feel that standing up for their rights will mean jobs being lost and the situation being made even worse.

That, coupled with the lack of solidarity common in this country - people will complain about jobs being lost, but just love their cheap goods - puts workers into a very difficult situation.

Unfortunatly you're very right.

fast as fupp

quite right- the SCAB is the only mammal that doesn't have a backbone

eh

Blimey this is the thread for Luddites, technology changes if you aren't willing to keep learning tough.

we import the basics of gas, oil and electricity.

Well if the UK got a bit more energy efficient and used green tech a bit more, then we'd have plenty of oil, gas and electricity, it is only sh*t goverment decisions and funding stopping this happening. Also the knowledge of oil and gas exploration and extraction is first class in the UK, after all the experiences of the North Sea.

gavintc

If the postmen don't like the condition of employment they can take themselves over to some other employer. There are lots unemployed content to take the jobs. Good night posties. you are just making yourselves redundant.

Anonymous

I work in manufacturing. When I started here in 1997 at least 400 people wroked here. Now it is less than half that. I blame a lot of automation and improvements that are too reliant on 1 man fixing instead of 5 men doing. We were going to strike last year over pay, it went right down to the strike ballot, we had out picket duty times and rotations. It was solved by an intervention at the 11th hour but we really shook up the management, not so much for the extra they offered us, just for the fact that we took it so far and all stood together.

If you stand, and are willing for a some sacrifice then you have to go all the way and do it. The Grapes of Wrath by Steinbeck is a good example of managements greed over the common man and why we have had a Labour Government let the RM and the rest of the country into this mess is beyond me.

fast as fupp

gavintc wrote:

If the postmen don't like the condition of employment they can take themselves over to some other employer. There are lots unemployed content to take the jobs. Good night posties. you are just making yourselves redundant.

there speaks the voice of thatchers broken britain

Frank the tank

fast as fupp wrote:

quite right- the SCAB is the only mammal that doesn't have a backbone

OI! :!: If that is directed at me I'll have you know I've NEVER CROSSED A PICKET LINE IN MY LIFE and indeed during the miners strike i gave loads of money to their cause.

Believe me, being a supporter of Hucknall town FC who were formed out of Hucknall Colliery Miners Welfare FC who I follow home and away, I'm used to being "tarred" with the SCAB brush. I've never worked down a mine and I've always been a trade unionist and have supported financially numerous "strikers" during my lifetime.

Next week HTFC are away at Frickley athletic and no doubt I'll get called a SCAB yet again and as much as it grates I'll just have to take it on my none picket line crossing strike supporting unionst chin again.

So "Fast as fupp", WIND YOUR F*CKIN' SCOUSE THIEVIN B@ST'@RD NECK IN.

Or am I steryotyping.

BTW Not everybody in the Notttinghamshire coalfields went to work, I know a lot of lads who were "out" and unlike their Yorkshire bretheren they were not supported by the whole community which made it really tough for them.

dodgy

Lots of speculation here about the Amazon not using RM anymore, but it's already happened (article posted on 7th October).
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/oct/0 ... al-strikes

finchy

eh wrote:

Blimey this is the thread for Luddites, technology changes if you aren't willing to keep learning tough.

Nobody's complaining about technology. Just management. And governments.

Frank the tank

eh wrote:

Blimey this is the thread for Luddites, technology changes if you aren't willing to keep learning tough.

we import the basics of gas, oil and electricity.

Well if the UK got a bit more energy efficient and used green tech a bit more, then we'd have plenty of oil, gas and electricity, it is only sh*t goverment decisions and funding stopping this happening. Also the knowledge of oil and gas exploration and extraction is first class in the UK, after all the experiences of the North Sea.

400 years worth of coal in Harworth colliery alone, Thanks "Maggie" as for green energy all for it. But if you want to address th climate issue I suggest you get the USA/China/India and Australia on board cos we contribute about the twice the square root of fook all. In the big picture.

gavintc

Well the TU do not seem to willing to embrace new more efficient working practices, just choosing to close a business down and blame the management, government anybody but themselves. Losers.

northernneil

downfader wrote:

northernneil wrote:

Toshmund wrote:

It is everyone's right to have industrial action (unless you are in one of those vocations like the armed forces...Not sure about the Police nowadays? Have they changed it?) especially if they are unhappy with their working conditions. It is a thin line between having the public on your side - or losing that support though.

In the East Midlands, last year the Fireman went on industrial action. People blew car horns as they drove past the picket line etc etc. It then turned out the complaint was that on night shifts, instead of being a sleep duty - they would do training or admin tasks. Not unreasonable really, unless you were working as a painter and decorator/window cleaner the following day. Which it turned out, quite a few were.

They went back to work, with little public support.

Derby at the moment, the council are in dispute with the dustbin men. They must be running around on their rounds, and finishing by 1 pm. Probably 3/4's the way into the shift, so the council (which as a council taxpayer - you have got to agree with...) want to either give them extra work/alter the hours. It ain't rocket science, is it!? :?

same is happening in leeds at the moment with the bin men - they are arguing about pay and conditions (baring in mind a bin man is on £18,000 a year !!!!!!!!!) and most of them do something else in the afternoons and this opportunity is being removed from them

Are you sure..? My local binmen are on less than £11k and do over 40 hours a week. :?

yep even socialist worker admits that http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=19103

Frank the tank

gavintc wrote:

Well the TU do not seem to willing to embrace new more efficient working practices, just choosing to close a business down and blame the management, government anybody but themselves. Losers.

You always have to warey of the media.

I remember when we were in dispute with management several years ago over wages.

It was broadcast on tv that we were rejecting a 6% wage rise. They failed to go into detail about all the strings attached, that is what we were rejecting. Ultimately we ended up setling for about 3.5% with no strings.

So beware, don't condemn people out of hand, and certainly not by what the media broadcast..

fast as fupp

Frank the tank wrote:

fast as fupp wrote:

quite right- the SCAB is the only mammal that doesn't have a backbone

OI! :!: If that is directed at me I'll have you know I've NEVER CROSSED A PICKET LINE IN MY LIFE and indeed during the miners strike i gave loads of money to their cause.

Believe me, being a supporter of Hucknall town FC who were formed out of Hucknall Colliery Miners Welfare FC who I follow home and away, I'm used to being "tarred" with the SCAB brush. I've never worked down a mine and I've always been a trade unionist and have supported financially numerous "strikers" during my lifetime.

Next week HTFC are away at Frickley athletic and no doubt I'll get called a SCAB yet again and as much as it grates I'll just have to take it on my none picket line crossing strike supporting unionst chin again.

So "Fast as fupp", WIND YOUR F*CKIN' SCOUSE THIEVIN B@ST'@RD NECK IN.

Or am I steryotyping.

BTW Not everybody in the Notttinghamshire coalfields went to work, I know a lot of lads who were "out" and unlike their Yorkshire bretheren they were not supported by the whole community which made it really tough for them.

i think youve got the wrong end of the stick there Frank! if you read our posts back youll see we are on pretty much the same wavelength

i was referring to the 30,000 scabs the post offce managment are planning on hiring

but if you give me your address ill pop down and rob yer gaff while youre at the match

fast as fupp

gavintc wrote:

Well the TU do not seem to willing to embrace new more efficient working practices, just choosing to close a business down and blame the management, government anybody but themselves. Losers.

the CWU have approached ACAS to try to set up talks to avert strike action but the managment have refused outright so stop talking sh1te

toshmund

When I mentioned the Dustbin men in the equation, I was getting at the fact - if someone has done a time and motion of your job, and reckons for that workload, you need 37.5 hours (or whatever). You don't speed up, and expect for it to last indefinitely. Someone is eventually going to think...How do they finish so early then?

Posties, some of them do a cracking job (some even shut the gate on the way out!?) I would class myself as quite left wing, but you cannot have something plodding along, because it has no competition. Like mentioned earlier, society is changing. In the near future, we will have the topend heavy old age population, we have people claiming off the welfare state - without even making any contribution to it in the first place. People who don't want to work because they cannot make the same money, in the workplace that they claim in benefits.

Our welfare state might be the envy of the rest of the world, but there seems to be a major discrepency between those contributing, and those taking from it.

The NHS is having the hardwork done on it at the moment, but the amount of bureaucracy and waste...something needs to be done. Don't know if this is the most reliable link - but it links onto more reliable sources...possibly (The TImes!?!?!)

http://sbvor.blogspot.com/2009/08/brita ... loyer.html

Frank the tank

Our NHS and postal service whilst not being perfect (what is) both work pretty damn well.

The NHS is the fourth largest employer in the WORLD so obviously there will be "efficencies" to be made there (usually Drs/nurses/specialists/medical people) not managers though. Let's be rate, when you're ill it's a manager you want not a doctor.

The postal service isn't perfect but, whilst us in urban areas may moan tell me a "private" concern that will deliver a letter to some remote outpost at no extra cost on a daily basis. The postal service should be exactly what the name suggest a service not a money making machine for a load of fat cat shareholders and the like.

fast as fupp

yes- imagine a postal service run on the lines of city link etc

zedders

I can see this is becoming a sore subject for some!
All I wanted to say, as someone on the outside is, unfortunately I think the Royal Mail is on its last legs. It can’t remain a large national organisation, and unfortunately jobs will have to go. It surely can’t sustain a large workforce anymore?
Years ago I would pay for bills and send cheques in the post to utilities companies. I sent b'day & xmas cards and alike. I would get bank statements, and bills and alike through my letterbox. Now everything is DD or done online, or via email. People don't send reminders - they text. People don't send invitations, they email. It goes on and on, and the fundamentals of the RM (posting mail) is all but dead.
Now all I get is junk mail. I would guess that less than 5% of the mail that comes through my door is worthwhile! I don't want t get anyone’s backs up, but my postie (and she is a very nice lady) delivers mostly junk all day? How can a business be run on sending junk that nobody wants?

redddraggon

zedders wrote:

How can a business be run on sending junk that nobody wants?

The ones that produce the junk pay for it to be delivered?

Splottboy

Wind, rain, snow, we deliver! The other postal delivery service almost exclusively rely on Royal Mail to get your bike bits to you...Don't people realise this?
Something like 50,000 RM workers have been lost since 2002, and guess who picks up the pieces? Right, the other posties!

RM Managers are giving themselves £10 Million pounds in "Bonuses", for the extra work the posties have to add onto their normal duties. Would you do someone else's work, on top of your own, for no more money? Yeah, right...of course you would...NOT!!!

The 30,000 extra P/Timers is an ILLEGAL act, under strike rules laid down years ago,
so that shouldn't happen. Thatcher closed the mines, and in S.Wales recently, one village had to order coal from The Continent, even though there is a small mine a few miles away.
What the HELL is happening to "Britain"? Broken...it's smashed to frigging bits!!!

ragtop

I can't seem why the guys being employed to fill in while a bunch of workshy union twats want to bunk off and stand round a burning barrel are getting stick.

If they don't want to work i am sure some of the thousands of people who have been left jobless in the current climate will gladly take their jobs.

If the Royal Mail had any ounce of balls they should tell the unions to 'F' off and sack the bloody lot of them. Okay it means we'll have a bit of disruption while they recruit and train new staff but it will stop unions destroying whats left of british industry.

Just look at what happened to Rover. The company needed to make changes to keep afloat, unions got involved and stopped it, company fails.

There will be people who disagree with me and i will probably get shouted at by some of you who have been in unions. I don't care. Be thankful you have a job even if the money or the hours aren't quite what you like........there are thousands who would work in your place so they can feed their families.

Maybe if thepostmen pulled their fingers out and delivered some post rather than whingeing about their hours or pay the public might support them.

teagar

johnfinch wrote:

fast as fupp wrote:

teagar wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

[

Indeed. I used to teach English in a Slovak factory for a very large, very profitable multi-national company. The workers were paid an average of £1 an hour, and Slovak taxes are among the lowest in the EU. The company still decided to shut up shop and move business to China, citing high costs.

What chance does manufacturing have in the UK, unless it is heavily subsidised?

Germany has plenty of manufacturing.

It's about what you make!

but the german government will subsidise jobs rather than have them lost to 'market forces' (greedy capitalists trying to increase profits)- the ongoing ope/ magner saga for instance

Precisely.

Market forces are quite simple. If it's cheaper/better to make it elsewhere then it should be. Germany has a successful manufacturing industry, which exports an awful lot because it has managed to become specialised in high level/high quality manufacturing. It's not about government intervention. Any intervention on part of trade is not allowed under the trading laws that most of the world (certainly the US and EU) abide by (most of the time).


As for subsidising, your own industry: that's sometihng that's largely illegal internationally. The car subsidy thing (buy back your old car for £2000) by passes the law because it is internationally agreed upon (at least, within the EU), rather than focusing on any one country.

If a country is losing manufacturing it's because it's not efficient to do it there anymore. Living costs/overheads too expensive etc.

The consumer eventually wins out, because it gets the goods at the cheapest price, thus losing inefficiencey (which is what the royal mail is suffering from, hence all the hassle).

Anyway, the British public would never stand for subsidising labour, partly because it's tricky, but most of all, because they already feel over-taxed!

fast as fupp

ragtop wrote:

I can't seem why the guys being employed to fill in while a bunch of workshy union twats want to bunk off and stand round a burning barrel are getting stick.

If they don't want to work i am sure some of the thousands of people who have been left jobless in the current climate will gladly take their jobs.

If the Royal Mail had any ounce of balls they should tell the unions to 'F' off and sack the bloody lot of them. Okay it means we'll have a bit of disruption while they recruit and train new staff but it will stop unions destroying whats left of british industry.

Just look at what happened to Rover. The company needed to make changes to keep afloat, unions got involved and stopped it, company fails.

There will be people who disagree with me and i will probably get shouted at by some of you who have been in unions. I don't care. Be thankful you have a job even if the money or the hours aren't quite what you like........there are thousands who would work in your place so they can feed their families.

Maybe if thepostmen pulled their fingers out and delivered some post rather than whingeing about their hours or pay the public might support them.

ignorant fool

Frank the tank

What will happen if the RM were to be broken up the private courier firms would snaffle up the profitable bits making huge prorits for themselves/shareholders the unprofitable bits as I mentioned before.................well, go f*ck yourself there's nothing to be made out of you, only a loss.

Just read some of the previous posts I ask this question, what's the difference between a binman doing another job and a consultant surgeon topping up their already considerable salary by doing "private" work very often using fascilities/staff supplied by the tax payer NHS to further line their own pockets.

Just thought I'd chuck that one in.