postmen will strike themselves out of jobs

northernneil

I see wiggle have moved their business away from the royal mail already and no doubt many other companies will follow suit.

These workers need to be careful, throughout history where trade has become difficult due to strike action customers simply take their business elsewhere,

ask dockers in liverpool
miners in yorkshire
car workers in the midlands

all show no go

Apparently the likes of Amazon and John Lewis are looking to move their business to alternative couriers.
The cynic in me tells me that it's getting close to christmas so it's time for the postal workers to go on strike because thats when they always seem to threaten action.

downfader

I think the trouble is when faced with very bad amounts of pressure in your job - what else can you do? People have already left the RM in their droves - same as in the NHS. No one in this day and ages should have the work load of a slave :?

The sad fact is times have changed, we're all being slowly done out of our jobs and being replaced either by cheap Chinese or Eastern Euro labour, or machines and computers here are doing our jobs (automated call centers, etc) RM havent yet made this transition and its workers suffer for it, for this limbo

We're all screwed either way.

Anonymous

downfader wrote:

I think the trouble is when faced with very bad amounts of pressure in your job - what else can you do? People have already left the RM in their droves - same as in the NHS. No one in this day and ages should have the work load of a slave :?

The sad fact is times have changed, we're all being slowly done out of our jobs and being replaced either by cheap Chinese or Eastern Euro labour, or machines and computers here are doing our jobs (automated call centers, etc) RM havent yet made this transition and its workers suffer for it, for this limbo

We're all screwed either way.

Sorry mate but I think having a heavy workload and being a slave is a bit of a leap.

teagar

I think they postmen feel they'll lose their jobs anyway the way it is going so why not strike?

daviesee

teagar wrote:

I think they postmen feel they'll lose their jobs anyway the way it is going so why not strike?

Sorry to answer a question with a question but what comes to my mind is:-

What will the strike achieve?

The way I see it is, inconvenience for it's customers, lost wages and little else.
I don't know enough about the facts to comment on the validity of the strike but personal experience tells me that it will be futile regardless.

Jobs will be lost and service from all providers will drop :evil:

Privatisation is not the answer to any public service.
Profits and public service are mutually incompatible.

gavintc

Postmen voting to strike is like turkeys voting for Christmas. This strike will be a defining act in the closure of the RM. Bill Hayes will be able to look back at his 'scargill' moment and will probably not accept his key role in winding up this business. Sad, but inevitable.

teagar

daviesee wrote:

teagar wrote:

I think they postmen feel they'll lose their jobs anyway the way it is going so why not strike?

Sorry to answer a question with a question but what comes to my mind is:-

What will the strike achieve?

The way I see it is, inconvenience for it's customers, lost wages and little else.
I don't know enough about the facts to comment on the validity of the strike but personal experience tells me that it will be futile regardless.

Jobs will be lost and service from all providers will drop :evil:

Privatisation is not the answer to any public service.
Profits and public service are mutually incompatible.

The fear for the workers is that the royal mail will all lose out to mechanisation, in the same way other postal services have (such as in the Netherlands). The Royal Mail employs a lot of people, and an awful lot would become redundant once mechanisation occurs.

So they want to make their jobs a political issue, rather than an economic one, thus giving them slightly more leverage.

They're going to lose out to mechanisation anyway, so why not strike?

toshmund

It is everyone's right to have industrial action (unless you are in one of those vocations like the armed forces...Not sure about the Police nowadays? Have they changed it?) especially if they are unhappy with their working conditions. It is a thin line between having the public on your side - or losing that support though.

In the East Midlands, last year the Fireman went on industrial action. People blew car horns as they drove past the picket line etc etc. It then turned out the complaint was that on night shifts, instead of being a sleep duty - they would do training or admin tasks. Not unreasonable really, unless you were working as a painter and decorator/window cleaner the following day. Which it turned out, quite a few were.

They went back to work, with little public support.

Derby at the moment, the council are in dispute with the dustbin men. They must be running around on their rounds, and finishing by 1 pm. Probably 3/4's the way into the shift, so the council (which as a council taxpayer - you have got to agree with...) want to either give them extra work/alter the hours. It ain't rocket science, is it!? :?

fast as fupp

yes! yes! whats the point we should all bend down and kiss the bosses ar$e

it may be YOUR jobs next if you have no spine

nicensleazy

Its a fine line indeed. On one hand you need protection for the workforce and on the other, they don't want to talk themselves out of a job. The government want any excuse to privatise RM.

Anonymous

Toshmund wrote:

It is everyone's right to have industrial action (unless you are in one of those vocations like the armed forces...Not sure about the Police nowadays? Have they changed it?) especially if they are unhappy with their working conditions. It is a thin line between having the public on your side - or losing that support though.

In the East Midlands, last year the Fireman went on industrial action. People blew car horns as they drove past the picket line etc etc. It then turned out the complaint was that on night shifts, instead of being a sleep duty - they would do training or admin tasks. Not unreasonable really, unless you were working as a painter and decorator/window cleaner the following day. Which it turned out, quite a few were.

They went back to work, with little public support.

Derby at the moment, the council are in dispute with the dustbin men. They must be running around on their rounds, and finishing by 1 pm. Probably 3/4's the way into the shift, so the council (which as a council taxpayer - you have got to agree with...) want to either give them extra work/alter the hours. It ain't rocket science, is it!? :?

Police can't strike.

I wouldn't anyway, I joined to do a service and my conscience wouldn't let me strike. That said it can be frustrating because you get what you are given. I remember a massive attempt to push for a pay rise a few years ago that went on for several months. We eventually got 400 quid a year but lost other things such as clothing allowance. The same week a £500 increase in benefits to asylum seekers was announced.

downfader

fast as fupp wrote:

yes! yes! whats the point we should all bend down and kiss the bosses ar$e

it may be YOUR jobs next if you have no spine

This is what is happening. Employers want more and more from us at the worker end without any changes in pay, often with worse working conditions (and I speak from an NHS perspective here obviously). Many of these guys in the RM are already doing about 43 hours a week, same for the firemen and binmen. You cant simply say "tough luck, you'll just have to work longer and do what we say" as many employers have been trying to.

We will end up at a dangerous point if these issues are not resolved. There are far too many of us who would become at the very least a tax burden if mechanisation takes over what men and women once did in industry. And that excludes all the foreign workers who are employed in the UK.

We also cannot go back to our old self sustaining lifestyles of old (farming and growing our own food) as again theres too many of us and no where to grow it. I think over-population will play a massive part in our working futures. So once these people have no jobs who is going to feed them?

I dont think strikes will affect the nation as massively as these other propositions. :?

squired

It is interesting seeing the disparity between the public and private sector. In the private sector wages are now on average less than the public sector, as are pensions. From what I hear from a friend in my local council they even have arrangements over how you have to work your 35 hour week. If you do the hours in 3 or 4 days then you can spend the others at home. In the private sector that sort of thing simply doesn't happen.

Royal Mail is being converted to run the way private sector companies do, but the staff are clearly fighting it. Unfortunately what is happening is a fact of modern life. People will fight it, but coucil pensions will one day be brought in line with the private sector, as will the holidays and the annual pay rises (how many private sector workers will have a 3rd consecutive year of 0% pay rises this Christmas and how many public sector workers will?).

fast as fupp

squired wrote:

It is interesting seeing the disparity between the public and private sector. In the private sector wages are now on average less than the public sector, as are pensions. From what I hear from a friend in my local council they even have arrangements over how you have to work your 35 hour week. If you do the hours in 3 or 4 days then you can spend the others at home. In the private sector that sort of thing simply doesn't happen.

Royal Mail is being converted to run the way private sector companies do, but the staff are clearly fighting it. Unfortunately what is happening is a fact of modern life. People will fight it, but coucil pensions will one day be brought in line with the private sector, as will the holidays and the annual pay rises (how many private sector workers will have a 3rd consecutive year of 0% pay rises this Christmas and how many public sector workers will?).

defeatism like yours will ensure that all workers will one day receive the minimum wage and be worked until they die

the ideal way of the private sector

northernneil

Toshmund wrote:

It is everyone's right to have industrial action (unless you are in one of those vocations like the armed forces...Not sure about the Police nowadays? Have they changed it?) especially if they are unhappy with their working conditions. It is a thin line between having the public on your side - or losing that support though.

In the East Midlands, last year the Fireman went on industrial action. People blew car horns as they drove past the picket line etc etc. It then turned out the complaint was that on night shifts, instead of being a sleep duty - they would do training or admin tasks. Not unreasonable really, unless you were working as a painter and decorator/window cleaner the following day. Which it turned out, quite a few were.

They went back to work, with little public support.

Derby at the moment, the council are in dispute with the dustbin men. They must be running around on their rounds, and finishing by 1 pm. Probably 3/4's the way into the shift, so the council (which as a council taxpayer - you have got to agree with...) want to either give them extra work/alter the hours. It ain't rocket science, is it!? :?

same is happening in leeds at the moment with the bin men - they are arguing about pay and conditions (baring in mind a bin man is on £18,000 a year !!!!!!!!!) and most of them do something else in the afternoons and this opportunity is being removed from them

downfader

northernneil wrote:

Toshmund wrote:

It is everyone's right to have industrial action (unless you are in one of those vocations like the armed forces...Not sure about the Police nowadays? Have they changed it?) especially if they are unhappy with their working conditions. It is a thin line between having the public on your side - or losing that support though.

In the East Midlands, last year the Fireman went on industrial action. People blew car horns as they drove past the picket line etc etc. It then turned out the complaint was that on night shifts, instead of being a sleep duty - they would do training or admin tasks. Not unreasonable really, unless you were working as a painter and decorator/window cleaner the following day. Which it turned out, quite a few were.

They went back to work, with little public support.

Derby at the moment, the council are in dispute with the dustbin men. They must be running around on their rounds, and finishing by 1 pm. Probably 3/4's the way into the shift, so the council (which as a council taxpayer - you have got to agree with...) want to either give them extra work/alter the hours. It ain't rocket science, is it!? :?

same is happening in leeds at the moment with the bin men - they are arguing about pay and conditions (baring in mind a bin man is on £18,000 a year !!!!!!!!!) and most of them do something else in the afternoons and this opportunity is being removed from them

Are you sure..? My local binmen are on less than £11k and do over 40 hours a week. :?

andrewlwood

fast as fupp wrote:

squired wrote:

It is interesting seeing the disparity between the public and private sector. In the private sector wages are now on average less than the public sector, as are pensions. From what I hear from a friend in my local council they even have arrangements over how you have to work your 35 hour week. If you do the hours in 3 or 4 days then you can spend the others at home. In the private sector that sort of thing simply doesn't happen.

Royal Mail is being converted to run the way private sector companies do, but the staff are clearly fighting it. Unfortunately what is happening is a fact of modern life. People will fight it, but coucil pensions will one day be brought in line with the private sector, as will the holidays and the annual pay rises (how many private sector workers will have a 3rd consecutive year of 0% pay rises this Christmas and how many public sector workers will?).

defeatism like yours will ensure that all workers will one day receive the minimum wage and be worked until they die

the ideal way of the private sector

Well - those that refuse to upskill and/or modernise their industries will. Why are some people paid more than the minimum wage currently? Because, in the free markets at least, they have skills that are in short supply. If you want someone to do more than 3 hours of walking every day and shoving letters through holes in doors, you have to pay them more. Sorry to be blunt! But skilled labour will always demand higher prices than unskilled, all other things being equal.

The fact is that the post office continues to offer an unparalleled service that is still in demand, but with the striking, the very businesses that have continued to support the Royal Mail (Amazon, John Lewis, Wiggle) are being pushed unnecessarily to the alternatives. The posties are hastening their own demise, because they refuse to be subject to market forces. Because they won't bend, they're going to break.

fast as fupp

andrewlwood wrote:

fast as fupp wrote:

squired wrote:

It is interesting seeing the disparity between the public and private sector. In the private sector wages are now on average less than the public sector, as are pensions. From what I hear from a friend in my local council they even have arrangements over how you have to work your 35 hour week. If you do the hours in 3 or 4 days then you can spend the others at home. In the private sector that sort of thing simply doesn't happen.

Royal Mail is being converted to run the way private sector companies do, but the staff are clearly fighting it. Unfortunately what is happening is a fact of modern life. People will fight it, but coucil pensions will one day be brought in line with the private sector, as will the holidays and the annual pay rises (how many private sector workers will have a 3rd consecutive year of 0% pay rises this Christmas and how many public sector workers will?).

defeatism like yours will ensure that all workers will one day receive the minimum wage and be worked until they die

the ideal way of the private sector

Well - those that refuse to upskill and/or modernise their industries will. Why are some people paid more than the minimum wage currently? Because, in the free markets at least, they have skills that are in short supply. If you want someone to do more than 3 hours of walking every day and shoving letters through holes in doors, you have to pay them more. Sorry to be blunt! But skilled labour will always demand higher prices than unskilled, all other things being equal.

The fact is that the post office continues to offer an unparalleled service that is still in demand, but with the striking, the very businesses that have continued to support the Royal Mail (Amazon, John Lewis, Wiggle) are being pushed unnecessarily to the alternatives. The posties are hastening their own demise, because they refuse to be subject to market forces. Because they won't bend, they're going to break

can you tell me where all these 'upskilled' jobs are?

call centres?

mcdonalds?

manufacturing industry?

sorry to be blunt but you havent got a clue

downfader

andrewlwood wrote:

fast as fupp wrote:

squired wrote:

It is interesting seeing the disparity between the public and private sector. In the private sector wages are now on average less than the public sector, as are pensions. From what I hear from a friend in my local council they even have arrangements over how you have to work your 35 hour week. If you do the hours in 3 or 4 days then you can spend the others at home. In the private sector that sort of thing simply doesn't happen.

Royal Mail is being converted to run the way private sector companies do, but the staff are clearly fighting it. Unfortunately what is happening is a fact of modern life. People will fight it, but coucil pensions will one day be brought in line with the private sector, as will the holidays and the annual pay rises (how many private sector workers will have a 3rd consecutive year of 0% pay rises this Christmas and how many public sector workers will?).

defeatism like yours will ensure that all workers will one day receive the minimum wage and be worked until they die

the ideal way of the private sector

Well - those that refuse to upskill and/or modernise their industries will. Why are some people paid more than the minimum wage currently? Because, in the free markets at least, they have skills that are in short supply. If you want someone to do more than 3 hours of walking every day and shoving letters through holes in doors, you have to pay them more. Sorry to be blunt! But skilled labour will always demand higher prices than unskilled, all other things being equal.

The fact is that the post office continues to offer an unparalleled service that is still in demand, but with the striking, the very businesses that have continued to support the Royal Mail (Amazon, John Lewis, Wiggle) are being pushed unnecessarily to the alternatives. The posties are hastening their own demise, because they refuse to be subject to market forces. Because they won't bend, they're going to break.

You seem to assume that people have the abilities to adapt to new industry. This is simply not the case. I imagine that you have parents (or if young grandparents) in work and if they were told "time for you to use computers" many would be flumoxed. Learning new skills for a completely different style of employment takes time and money - usually the individuals own.

The RM is a massive employer in the UK, perhaps the second or third largest in the UK. Those are a LOT of people to be retrained.

EDIT: and if we're talking about pay in general we should consider that if pay was given fairly on the basis of performance rather than misguided ideals and prejudice then many people would be paid a lot more and many, and higher position jobs paid a lot less. I have never seen a slow postie in my life. The guys here work their bums off actually running from house to house to deliver the mail. I dont know many people who would do that.

Frank the tank

downfader wrote:

I think the trouble is when faced with very bad amounts of pressure in your job - what else can you do? People have already left the RM in their droves - same as in the NHS. No one in this day and ages should have the work load of a slave :?

The sad fact is times have changed, we're all being slowly done out of our jobs and being replaced either by cheap Chinese or Eastern Euro labour, or machines and computers here are doing our jobs (automated call centers, etc) RM havent yet made this transition and its workers suffer for it, for this limbo

We're all screwed either way.

TBH not read the entire thread but this comment sums things up pretty well.

While the slavery bit isn't quite here it's not too far away for us in the manufacturing quarter. The latest draft of a new contract for workers in the company I work for's Sunderland is from my ( in some of your lots's case, journdiced POV).

If you wish to have a new factory built, the contract is:-

Pick your manacles up at the door, hang your soul on the hook provided, get your head shaved there and here are some striped "pyjamas" to wear.

I always remember as a boy my dad showing me a photo of himself, siblings and friends taken in the 1930's. They were all dressed in clothes bordering on rags and shoes were a luxury. He said this is how the Tories would have you live lad, don't ever forget it, the reason you have what you have what you have is because brave men have had the balls to stand up and be counted.

In those days people had nothing at all, nowadays they have considerably more, in the way of posessions to lose (even if it is on tic) but if you end up workng for F*ck all you'll lose it all anyway.

The next few years will be a real watershed.

finchy

Frank the tank wrote:

downfader wrote:

I think the trouble is when faced with very bad amounts of pressure in your job - what else can you do? People have already left the RM in their droves - same as in the NHS. No one in this day and ages should have the work load of a slave :?

The sad fact is times have changed, we're all being slowly done out of our jobs and being replaced either by cheap Chinese or Eastern Euro labour, or machines and computers here are doing our jobs (automated call centers, etc) RM havent yet made this transition and its workers suffer for it, for this limbo

We're all screwed either way.

TBH not read the entire thread but this comment sums things up pretty well.

While the slavery bit isn't quite here it's not too far away for us in the manufacturing quarter. The latest draft of a new contract for workers in the company I work for's Sunderland is from my ( in some of your lots's case, journdiced POV).

If you wish to have a new factory built, the contract is:-

Pick your manacles up at the door, hang your soul on the hook provided, get your head shaved there and here are some striped "pyjamas" to wear.

I always remember as a boy my dad showing me a photo of himself, siblings and friends taken in the 1930's. They were all dressed in clothes bordering on rags and shoes were a luxury. He said this is how the Tories would have you live lad, don't ever forget it, the reason you have what you have what you have is because brave men have had the balls to stand up and be counted.

In those days people had nothing at all, nowadays they have considerably more, in the way of posessions to lose (even if it is on tic) but if you end up workng for F*ck all you'll lose it all anyway.

The next few years will be a real watershed.

Indeed. I used to teach English in a Slovak factory for a very large, very profitable multi-national company. The workers were paid an average of £1 an hour, and Slovak taxes are among the lowest in the EU. The company still decided to shut up shop and move business to China, citing high costs.

What chance does manufacturing have in the UK, unless it is heavily subsidised?

teagar

johnfinch wrote:

[

Indeed. I used to teach English in a Slovak factory for a very large, very profitable multi-national company. The workers were paid an average of £1 an hour, and Slovak taxes are among the lowest in the EU. The company still decided to shut up shop and move business to China, citing high costs.

What chance does manufacturing have in the UK, unless it is heavily subsidised?

Germany has plenty of manufacturing.

It's about what you make!

fast as fupp

teagar wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

[

Indeed. I used to teach English in a Slovak factory for a very large, very profitable multi-national company. The workers were paid an average of £1 an hour, and Slovak taxes are among the lowest in the EU. The company still decided to shut up shop and move business to China, citing high costs.

What chance does manufacturing have in the UK, unless it is heavily subsidised?

Germany has plenty of manufacturing.

It's about what you make!

but the german government will subsidise jobs rather than have them lost to 'market forces' (greedy capitalists trying to increase profits)- the ongoing ope/ magner saga for instance

Frank the tank

teagar wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

[

Indeed. I used to teach English in a Slovak factory for a very large, very profitable multi-national company. The workers were paid an average of £1 an hour, and Slovak taxes are among the lowest in the EU. The company still decided to shut up shop and move business to China, citing high costs.

What chance does manufacturing have in the UK, unless it is heavily subsidised?

Germany has plenty of manufacturing.

It's about what you make!

The company I work for make aero engines.

I do hope you feel comfortable the next time you're 38,000ft in the air and you think.....

I can relax, these propulsion units were manufactured by people working for the minimal amount of remuneration.

Pay peanuts you get monkey's.

downfader

With manufacture there is something to be said for self-sufficiency here too. Should we completely lose those skills and workforces in that respect then during any period of war or major conflict (eg if we ever see a situation such as WW2 again) then we will suffer. We wont have the resources to cope.

As for the slave comment, I suppose I should say I was speaking metephorically here. Not literally

finchy

downfader wrote:

With manufacture there is something to be said for self-sufficiency here too. Should we completely lose those skills and workforces in that respect then during any period of war or major conflict (eg if we ever see a situation such as WW2 again) then we will suffer. We wont have the resources to cope.

And don't forget that one day we might have a massive devaluation of the pound.... oh.

finchy

fast as fupp wrote:

teagar wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

[

Indeed. I used to teach English in a Slovak factory for a very large, very profitable multi-national company. The workers were paid an average of £1 an hour, and Slovak taxes are among the lowest in the EU. The company still decided to shut up shop and move business to China, citing high costs.

What chance does manufacturing have in the UK, unless it is heavily subsidised?

Germany has plenty of manufacturing.

It's about what you make!

but the german government will subsidise jobs rather than have them lost to 'market forces' (greedy capitalists trying to increase profits)- the ongoing ope/ magner saga for instance

Precisely.

fast as fupp

there doesnt seem to be this problem when its the greedy, grabbing banks that need propping up

Frank the tank

downfader wrote:

With manufacture there is something to be said for self-sufficiency here too. Should we completely lose those skills and workforces in that respect then during any period of war or major conflict (eg if we ever see a situation such as WW2 again) then we will suffer. We wont have the resources to cope.

As for the slave comment, I suppose I should say I was speaking metephorically here. Not literally

In some respects the only good thing to come out of "globalisation" is another world war would be all but imposible.

Take the GB for example, never mind manufacturing we have to import most of our raw materials and as if that weren't bad enough we import the basics of gas, oil and electricity.

Imagine the days of the cold war being revisited.

Step away form western europe or we'll newk you.

If you newk us well cut your oil/gas off.

Get the picture.

Frank the tank

fast as fupp wrote:

there doesnt seem to be this problem when its the greedy, grabbing banks that need propping up

As I posted on a different thread appearently 95% of the worlds wealth is in the hands of 3% of its population.

Not quite sure where this has taken the thread, but do we care.

I'm only a working class ill educated bloke but I do have more than a fair sense of justice/fairness, It will take a few years I think but eventully we (the working masses) will be back at "square one" and I can assure you the bike you'll be seeking work on will not be a carbon fibre one,