Its sunday, lets have a religious debate!

STEFANOS4784

Not at all, might be able to keep it going 'til this sunday-if we're lucky :roll:

guilliano

djbarren wrote:

guilliano wrote:

I used to wonder, if God created humans as his(?) master race why did he then create all these diseases and bacteria to kill them off again? If we are all his children why does he lock us in a room with ebola and lepracy and other such nasty things? Would you do that to your kids?

Ok I have read enough crap to last me a life time, here is my take on it.

This is what I believe.

God gave man a free will, because without a free will then man could not freely love God. Man would be no more then just an automaton. As part of that free will God instructed man on what he should and should not do, more to protect the man then to keep him from something. In this case eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

When Eve let Satan deceive her and ate that fruit she disobeyed Gods' order. In other words she broke God’s law. But what about Adam, he did not disobey God until he ate the fruit Eve gave him. I feel that Adam was not deceived but took the fruit from Eve willingly since she was fallen and would die, Adam did not want to be without her so he ate the fruit and joined her in her fate. When he ate the fruit he then disobeyed God’s law. That is what sin is, disobeying God. It is that plain and simple.

The bible says in 1Ti 2:14 "And it was not Adam who was deceived. It was the woman who was deceived and became a lawbreaker".

By keeping him from eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil God kept man from understanding how to break the law (breaking the law would be considered evil). Once man ate of that tree he understood that God had an absolute law and that he had just broken that law by disobeying God.

Remember God is not held by the constraints of time such as we are, God being all knowing and all seeing, already knew that man would disobey him. That is why Jesus entered the world, so God and man could be reconciled. Jesus is God in the flesh, the perfect sacrifice because he was tempted as we are but yet he did not break the laws of God. By keeping the entire law perfectly he was then able to die as a perfect sacrifice, a sacrifice that would cover mankind forever, not just for a year as the sacrifice of a perfect lamb did.

In closing, Adam by disobeying God’s law (sinning) was what caused sin (lawlessness) to enter the world. Thereby cursing the world to suffering, bloodshed and eventually death.

http://www.glorifythelord.com/adamandeve.html

Don't quite see how you answered my point on how the creator of everything created diseases intended to kill off the human race?

STEFANOS4784

So God is not 'all forgiving then' in fact he's a vindictive thing :roll:

mfin

guilliano wrote:

Don't quite see how you answered my point on how the creator of everything created diseases intended to kill off the human race?

That's cos he didn't.

...I wonder how these people pick their own little takes on their religion as the 'way it is' ...let alone the fact that they're picking their religion as right over all others, and by implication they must believe these other religions take on events must be wrong... perhaps they think all the other religions are fairy stories, they must do to be so specific in their own beliefs.

Fact is, if you are religious, in the vast majority you'll be someone who believes a version of what you've been exposed to/taught. Not facts, just the stuff you hear the most of. Therefore religious belief is a 'tendency a lot of people have' but they don't pick which one they follow through rationale, no matter how they choose to put it.

All the religions can't be right. If you're just 'spiritual' and don't claim to have an opinion of what god is and his intentions are then you're probably as sensible a religious type as you can get.

mfin

djbarren wrote:

There is evidence that cancer and heart disease are primarily caused by stress.

STD's, in the majority, can be traced back to having sex with animals.

Most food poisoning could be avoided by following Biblical food usage, storage and consumption practices.

In my opinion disease was created by God and is spread through sin.

After all, it is not what happens to you that matters it is how you choose to think and act that is important.

For example, a baby can inherit AIDS from their mother, who may or may not have contracted AIDS by committing a sin. The mother could have gotten AIDS from the Husband who received AIDS from a transfusion during surgery. A sin is what started the transmission of the disease and in the case of AIDS that is well documented.

Is this why people are so ignorant, they are illiterate and cannot actually read?

http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v13/i1/viruses.asp

Sorry, but that is idiotic... and is the bible some kind of food hygiene manual now is it? ...and you think your own pre-conceptions about AIDS are a good example to illustrate your belief that 'disease was created by god and is spread through sin' do you? ...so, do you wanna explain how that works with Influenza, Tuberculosis and Cancer then? ...off you go.

finchy

djbarren wrote:

if it were proven some day beyond reasonable doubt that life on earth did begin from a small amount of cells which went on to develop into a diversity of higher forms through random mutations and natural selection, I will still believe in God

Of course there is no contradiction between evolution and the existence of a God. You can still believe, even if you don't take every word of the Bible to be the absolute literal truth.

There are plenty of people who believe in evolution, natural selection and an Earth that is billions of years old and still believe in God(s).

alexj2233

I was just listening to this song whilst reading this thread.
It pretty much sums up what life is really!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_P4zIYnJZ1Q

I have just started doing a philosophy a level, and was thinking about where i stand in believing about God.
I find that religion and faith is just so flawed that it is impossible to believe in without complete ignorance. For every argument religions hold there is a much stronger argument from elsewhere.

At the end of the day only one set of people are right, although i would rather live my life to the full in a way that makes me happy and die satisfied from my life, regardless of life after death.

Maybe religious people will get the last laugh(although i doubt it)

guilliano

djbarren wrote:

There is evidence that cancer and heart disease are primarily caused by stress.

STD's, in the majority, can be traced back to having sex with animals.

Most food poisoning could be avoided by following Biblical food usage, storage and consumption practices.

In my opinion disease was created by God and is spread through sin.

After all, it is not what happens to you that matters it is how you choose to think and act that is important.

For example, a baby can inherit AIDS from their mother, who may or may not have contracted AIDS by committing a sin. The mother could have gotten AIDS from the Husband who received AIDS from a transfusion during surgery. A sin is what started the transmission of the disease and in the case of AIDS that is well documented.

Is this why people are so ignorant, they are illiterate and cannot actually read?

http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v13/i1/viruses.asp

Disease is spread by sin? So breathing is a sin? That is how you catch flu after all. What about things like multiple sclerosis or cerebral palsy? And ebola as far as I know is also an airbourne disease..... and what about malaria? Did someone have to have sex with a mosquitoe to contract that? TB? Bubonic plague?

Have you ever watched a relative slowly and painfully die of cancer? Did you tell them they should have led a less stressful life? Caused by stress my bum. 1 in every 100,000 cells the body creates is cancerous. In your eyes this makes it a God created thing and as such He is trying to kill the human race.

Gotte

johnfinch wrote:

There are plenty of people who believe in evolution, natural selection and an Earth that is billions of years old and still believe in God(s).

As I believe did a certain Mr Darwin, which I imagine always irks a certain Mr Dorkins.

mfin

djbarren wrote:

There is evidence that cancer and heart disease are primarily caused by stress.

I missed that !!!! ...Cancer primarily caused by stress???!!??!!! ...and there we are spending billions of pounds and dollars trying to find a cure when if everyone wasn't stressed it sounds like the bulk of people wouldn't get it.

Where did you read this 'evidence' and when you did read it you have either 1) completely (and stupidly) mis-interpreted what it was saying or 2) read it from a stupid source and (stupidly) took it to be true, or 3) you haven't read it at all, you've just made it up

Unbelievable!

mfin

djbarren wrote:

mfin

You seem like a very angry person, who thrives on making this debate personal. So now I am some sort of idiot. For expressing what I believe in. :?

Not ance have I ever made this debate personal, and by that I mean calling people names.

And If i come across as forcefull for that I apologise. After all we do live in a free world do we not where we practice freedom of speech. [/b]

Well, you're saying daft things, if you didn't say them, it wouldn't be picked up on. You're also disrespectful of a lot of people who are dying of incurable diseases, so if you don't like the tone, tough, cos I find your views just as offensive as you might take offense at the way Ive responded to them.

afx237vi

mfin wrote:

djbarren wrote:

mfin

You seem like a very angry person, who thrives on making this debate personal. So now I am some sort of idiot. For expressing what I believe in. :?

Not ance have I ever made this debate personal, and by that I mean calling people names.

And If i come across as forcefull for that I apologise. After all we do live in a free world do we not where we practice freedom of speech. [/b]

Well, you're saying daft things, if you didn't say them, it wouldn't be picked up on. You're also disrespectful of a lot of people who are dying of incurable diseases, so if you don't like the tone, tough, cos I find your views just as offensive as you might take offense at the way Ive responded to them.

Well said.

jp1985

For those with "faith"

How do you explain the many different gods that have been created and worshipped by man? Which god is it you believe in and why do you believe yours is the one true god?

finchy

jp1985 wrote:

For those with "faith"

How do you explain the many different gods that have been created and worshipped by man? Which god is it you believe in and why do you believe yours is the one true god?

I once went to see an Islamic scholar talking about how Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all basically the same God with a few minor differences, and that any monotheistic religion should be considered as an equivalent to one of these three, as Jehovah/God/Allah will appear in different ways according to the needs of the people living in a certain place/period.

He also said that he considered polytheistic religions such as Hinduism to have misinterpreted the nature of God (and found justification for this in sacred Hindu texts), but that's OK, because human societies across the world tend to have pretty similar moral standards anyway (I think he was on fairly shaky ground there), so God will accept their worship.

I suspect that many religious people share a similar view - that other religions just haven't come to a correct interpretation. Whether they think they'll all go to heaven, or burn in hell for this is another matter entirely.

Crapaud

For those with faith:

What's the evidence for heaven? Or hell for that matter.

finchy

Crapaud wrote:

For those with faith:

What's the evidence for heaven? Or hell for that matter.

I think the standard argument for that is that it's better to believe in a God that doesn't exist than to not believe in one who does.

Fair point, but then maybe there isn't one God, there are loads of the old Roman, Greek, Viking and Celtic ones, and they're all somewhat pissed off at the Christians for destroying their religions, but don't mind atheists.

That would be a funny old turn up for the books come the afterlife. I think I might get buried with a few gold coins and a couple of dog biscuits, just in case. 8)

Crapaud

johnfinch wrote:

... That would be a funny old turn up for the books come the afterlife. I think I might get buried with a few gold coins and a couple of dog biscuits, just in case. 8)

A loaf and a toasting fork for me. :twisted:

mfin

Lets take it then that Mr Christian God is the one that exists...

When all the Muslims, Hindus, etc etc die then are they all gonna have to listen to him saying 'right lads, im afraid you didn't get the answer right, so its off to hell for you, through the door to your right please... that's right, where all the atheists and evil people are going... byyyeee'.

Plus... all the unbelievers will also get the 'look, I told you all about it and you ignored me' and when we say 'yeah but you didn't did you? you big cryptic pillock, and whatsmore you also went and let loads of versions of it circle about all over the place. We wouldn't have known which to pick even if we'd wanted to cos you didn't provide any evidence either. What bloody chance did you think that gave us? ...its not difficult to see is it? you can't be that thick mate' ...and he'd say 'right enough of your lip, get through that door before I kick you through it'.

If god does exist for us all to meet when we die then he's gonna get a lot of people moaning at him for being daft and unfair that's for sure.

STEFANOS4784

For those without faith;
What's the evidence for no after life?

mfin

Anyone see Jim Jeffries talking about Jesus disappearing in the bible in his teenage years? ...he said it was probably his mum n dad that told him it would be 'best to get a trade' ...'in case this messiah thing doesn't work out' and that's why he was a carpenter.

He then went on to say that when Jesus was doing the Surmon on the Mount there mustve been someone at the back all surprised that said 'hey, that's the guy that put up my gazebo!'

Essex Man

ride_whenever wrote:

Evolution is not a theory any more than smoking fags gives you lung cancer is a theory.

Answer me this though, believers, why did God bother making man? For man to worship him? For fun? What a strange guy - I'd stay clear of someone like that!

Firstly, it is a theory because it is untestable, you cannot prove it, anymore than you can prove the existence of god. As for fags and lung cancer, strong statistical evidence not necessarily proof. Look at stress and stomach ulcers, up until fairly recently the strong statistical evidence was used to suggest treatment, until an INSANE scientist gave a better explanation backed up by giving himself an ulcer.

That's how the scientific method works, thesis, antithesis and synthesis. Coupled with paradigm shift.

As for god being strange, we ride bikes... 'nuff said! god is clearly odd and a bit of a bastard.

...and bacterial resistance to antibiotics has arisen because of...?

Evolution is not just a theory about the existence of man.

wrt the scientific method, thanks for clearing that up for me. I didn't find that a patronising pile of stinking sh*t at all. :roll:

alfablue

Crapaud wrote:

For those with faith:

What's the evidence for heaven? Or hell for that matter.

This very question is what separates us - to have faith means belief without evidence. Those with faith do not need evidence.

alfablue

STEFANOS4784 wrote:

For those without faith;
What's the evidence for no after life?

In a previous life I learned that it is impossible to prove a negative.

Crapaud

STEFANOS4784 wrote:

For those without faith;
What's the evidence for no after life?

For those with whiskers:

Where's the evidence for no aftershave?

Crapaud

alfablue wrote:

Crapaud wrote:

For those with faith:

What's the evidence for heaven? Or hell for that matter.

This very question is what separates us - to have faith means belief without evidence. Those with faith do not need evidence.

Sounds like the definition of delusion.

STEFANOS4784

Crapaud wrote:

STEFANOS4784 wrote:

For those without faith;
What's the evidence for no after life?

For those with whiskers:

Where's the evidence for no aftershave?

Um, in my bathroom cabinet

Crapaud

STEFANOS4784 wrote:

Crapaud wrote:

STEFANOS4784 wrote:

For those without faith;
What's the evidence for no after life?

For those with whiskers:

Where's the evidence for no aftershave?

Um, in my bathroom cabinet

Must be a very small bathroom if you keep it in a cabinet!

alfablue

Crapaud wrote:

alfablue wrote:

Crapaud wrote:

For those with faith:

What's the evidence for heaven? Or hell for that matter.

This very question is what separates us - to have faith means belief without evidence. Those with faith do not need evidence.

Sounds like the definition of delusion.

Ah, well, first off, if someone had a belief without evidence, but that belief turned out to be correct, it could hardly be classed as a delusion.

Secondly, in psychiatry, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of mental Disorders (DSM 4) defines a delusion thus:

A false belief based on incorrect inference about external reality that is firmly sustained despite what almost everybody else believes and despite what constitutes incontrovertible and obvious proof or evidence to the contrary. The belief is not one ordinarily accepted by other members of the person's culture or subculture.

This in effect, means that a religious belief, however bizarre, cannot be classed as a delusion (and therefore cannot be classed as a diagnostic sign or symptom of a mental disorder, and so cannot be used to apply UK mental health legislation) as a religious belief is accepted by the other members of the persons subculture (religion, sect, etc).

So you can have the craziest ideas you like about gods, afterlife, virgin birth, etc, but you ain't (legally) crazy!!! :? :shock:

Crapaud

alfablue wrote:

... Ah, well, first off, if someone had a belief without evidence, but that belief turned out to be correct, it could hardly be classed as a delusion. ...

For the belief to be proved correct there'd have to be evidence, otherwise it would remain belief / delusion.

STEFANOS4784

Crapaud wrote:

STEFANOS4784 wrote:

Crapaud wrote:

STEFANOS4784 wrote:

For those without faith;
What's the evidence for no after life?

For those with whiskers:

Where's the evidence for no aftershave?

Um, in my bathroom cabinet

Must be a very small bathroom if you keep it in a cabinet!

I have none in my bathroom cabinet so that's the evidence........apparently
Definatrly off to bed this time...............