Its sunday, lets have a religious debate!

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  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    As an answer to life's dilemmas and quandries, I've always found The Simpsons far instructive than The Bible.

    I grew up at a fairly serious Christian school. The more I read into the history and context of the Abrahamic religions, the more it reveals itself to be utter BS.

    The history of the Abrahamic religions fascinates me - does anyone know a good book about it (from a purely historical view - no bias either way)?

    I don't mind individuals having faith, it's when they group together and influence my life that I object.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • guilliano
    guilliano Posts: 5,495
    Slartibartfast and his crew created the world at the behest of the mice. Simples
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/guilliano/
  • Firecrakka
    Firecrakka Posts: 81
    holmeboy wrote:
    Where did the Universe and all that's in it come from then? Just interested to know. :twisted:

    Where did God come from?
    I mean its ridiculous to think nothing existed before the birth of the Universe. Right?
    So who or what created God? Did he come from nothing?

    Just interested to know. :wink:
  • mfin
    mfin Posts: 6,729
    I never get the existence bit... we haven't got the brain power to work it out, thats why Im saying why would anyone believe in a fairy story just to believe they have an answer?

    No-one would expect a monkey to get a maths degree no matter how hard it tried and on the same account we aren't wired cleverly enough to understand existence, I reckon the the monkey would probably have more chance with his challenge though.

    All I do think is everything is based on principles, evidence, and things you can test, and religion completely falls down on all these when it comes to trying to show its main characters to be real. That is not a science vs religion comment, that's a common sense one. I don't think the argument goes much deeper than that.

    So back to the start... blasphemy is okay then? ...I actually think its quite nicely expressive and non-offensive if anything. Its almost like a low-cal, child friendly way of swearing to me.
  • guilliano
    guilliano Posts: 5,495
    Depends who says it and how. I know someone who when they use the phrase "oh God" or Jesus Christ" it is as offensive as being called "inbred thick fooking coont" as that is normally what they mean.
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/guilliano/
  • the ferry
    the ferry Posts: 258
    ....Wow what a bunch of lukewarm half hearted heathens!.....

    I love cycling but it does not compere to the amazing peace and joy i get through having a personal deep relationship with Jesus Christ.

    I can easily understand that negative experiences of school or boring churches can leave a lasting impression but GET OVER IT. God is alive and well and waiting for anyone who calls on him.

    Check out a good local church mine is xcelchurch.com
    The place is thriving growing and alive with the sound of people thanking and praising God.

    I'm reading at the moment of our country having bars with steps up to them so 5yr olds could order gin. Not one or two pubs BTW but one in five - can't believe it? check out your history!. This was stopped by a passionate man of God not a 'humanist' or do -gooder.

    The amount of posts suggests people are searching for something, i will pray that the truth will set you free.
  • teagar
    teagar Posts: 2,100
    holmeboy wrote:
    teagar wrote:
    holmeboy wrote:
    Where did the Universe and all that's in it come from then? Just interested to know. :twisted:

    Don't know.


    Oooooo! come on somebody on here must know! Don't be shy! :evil:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... ie-brooker
    Note: the above post is an opinion and not fact. It might be a lie.
  • Gotte
    Gotte Posts: 494
    mfin wrote:
    All I do think is everything is based on principles, evidence, and things you can test, and religion completely falls down on all these when it comes to trying to show its main characters to be real. That is not a science vs religion comment, that's a common sense one. I don't think the argument goes much deeper than that.

    It does still come down to belief, though, and for most of us, blind, dare I use the phrase, faith. I know no one who can do the mathematics which prove the principles of the universe. A lot of men in white coats tell us how it is, and we just believe them.
    In the past, other men in white coats told us how the universe was, and people believed them just as fervently.
    How many people can actually prove the event horizon, or the big bang, for that matter.
    If I had to prove to my daughter that we are made of atoms, I couldn't. I could only say, someone with authority says so, and I believe them because, well, they they have authority and a lot of other people who have authority agree with them. A bit like the medieval church, really.
    I'm not saying I don;t believe in any of those things, just that science is as much an act of a faith for your average Joe as religion.
  • bobpzero
    bobpzero Posts: 1,431
    edited October 2009
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/bookreviews/6202333/The-Greatest-Show-on-Earth-the-Evidence-for-Evolution-by-Richard-Dawkins-review.html
    "Dawkins compares creationists to Holocaust deniers and spoons, with relish, an acid sauce of mockery onto that absurd confection of half-baked ideas."

    Penn Jillette (of Penn and Teller fame):

    “I don’t respect people who don’t proselytize. If you believe that there’s a heaven and hell, and people could be going to hell, and you think, ‘Well, it’s not really worth telling them this because it would make it socially awkward’…How much do you have to hate somebody not to proselytize?”

    its not religion its christianity. as i could be religious about fair trade coffee.
    pm me if you are a true christian
  • redwinnie
    redwinnie Posts: 42
    Just a thought for you all..

    If a hundred people believe in something they are dillusional.

    If a million people believe something its called religion.
  • mfin
    mfin Posts: 6,729
    edited October 2009
    the ferry wrote:
    I'm reading at the moment of our country having bars with steps up to them so 5yr olds could order gin. Not one or two pubs BTW but one in five - can't believe it? check out your history!. This was stopped by a passionate man of God not a 'humanist' or do -gooder.

    ...what are you on about there? ...have you been reading the Sunday Sport? (or are you referring to some centuries old bit of irrelevance?)
    the ferry wrote:
    The amount of posts suggests people are searching for something, i will pray that the truth will set you free.

    ...fill your boots, please.

    Ummmm... you are having a laugh aren't you?
  • mfin
    mfin Posts: 6,729
    guilliano wrote:
    Depends who says it and how. I know someone who when they use the phrase "oh God" or Jesus Christ" it is as offensive as being called "inbred thick fooking coont" as that is normally what they mean.

    God, they must have one hell of a 'delivery'! ...sounds like they could do just as good a job with the term 'silly billy' with those skills.
  • snailracer
    snailracer Posts: 968
    snailracer wrote:
    pneumatic wrote:
    Spirituality is natural to human minds (but often supressed); it is part of the natural processes of the unconscious. Ask a neuroscientist.

    Religion is spirituality gone wrong.

    It usually goes wrong because people start taking it too literally and/or use it as a dump for all their primitive anxiety about other people. Me good; they evil. And what is more, god agrees with me so I get to kill them for being wrong and nobody will mind.
    +1
    I think religious belief, spirituality, call it what you will, is hard-wired into the human brain. It can be overridden. Nonetheless, religious people report being happier than atheists, so being religious seems to be the "happier" (and therefore preferred) choice for most people.
    Let's not forget that primitive emotions can include the positive feelings of love, hope, fulfilment, etc. too. Case in point:
    the ferry wrote:
    ....Wow what a bunch of lukewarm half hearted heathens!.....

    I love cycling but it does not compere to the amazing peace and joy i get through having a personal deep relationship with Jesus Christ.

    I can easily understand that negative experiences of school or boring churches can leave a lasting impression but GET OVER IT. God is alive and well and waiting for anyone who calls on him.

    Check out a good local church mine is xcelchurch.com
    The place is thriving growing and alive with the sound of people thanking and praising God.

    I'm reading at the moment of our country having bars with steps up to them so 5yr olds could order gin. Not one or two pubs BTW but one in five - can't believe it? check out your history!. This was stopped by a passionate man of God not a 'humanist' or do -gooder.

    The amount of posts suggests people are searching for something, i will pray that the truth will set you free.
  • mfin
    mfin Posts: 6,729
    the ferry wrote:
    The amount of posts suggests people are searching for something

    ...to you it might, but if you read them I think you'll find most people are simply offering arguments and viewpoints about religion and discussing things purely because its stimulating and an interesting thing to do, nothing else.

    ...you could have said 'the amount of posts suggests people on here don't like marmite' and it would make about as much sense as the conclusion you've drawn.
  • guilliano
    guilliano Posts: 5,495
    I like marmite and I've made lots of posts. And I am searching for my copy of Pink Floyd; Pulse
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/guilliano/
  • mfin
    mfin Posts: 6,729
    I like it too, just used the first irrelevant thing that came into my head. (good album)
  • the ferry
    the ferry Posts: 258
    .....yeah good point! should of been 'suggests to me'
  • mfin
    mfin Posts: 6,729
    the ferry wrote:
    .....yeah good point! should of been 'suggests to me'

    ...and the 5yr olds gin-bar thing??? ...any enlightenment on that?
  • mfin
    mfin Posts: 6,729
    Oh... ta for the PM regarding 19th Century Gin Joints and William Booth. Don't see its relevance myself at all!
  • mfin
    mfin Posts: 6,729
    Here's a different viewpoint then....

    Lets say there IS a god then, and like so many seem to believe, this God has limitless powers, knowledge and knows everything thats going on everywhere.

    If the above is true then I think with all the mass and personal suffering, emotional and extreme physical pain of millions throughout the centuries that if any decent person was in that position then they would do something about it?

    But no. So if the first bit was true it would be obvious that this 'god' IS MOST DEFINTELY the most uncaring example of a total b*stard that it almost defies comprehension, what a terrible sh1t he would have to be, the very definition of evil, he'd make hitler look like ghandi ...he wouldn't lift a finger to stop an innocent child getting abused or a nice person dying in terrible agony ...but he could.

    Someone who could do something about it, but doesn't want to or can't be bothered, who the hell would want to have anything to do with a complete and utter d1ck like that?

    Of course, all of this is obvious to rational people, oh... and he burns people that disagree with him apparently.
  • guilliano
    guilliano Posts: 5,495
    I used to wonder, if God created humans as his(?) master race why did he then create all these diseases and bacteria to kill them off again? If we are all his children why does he lock us in a room with ebola and lepracy and other such nasty things? Would you do that to your kids?
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/guilliano/
  • mfin
    mfin Posts: 6,729
    guilliano wrote:
    Would you do that to your kids?

    Of course you wouldn't, cos most of us are relatively nice with a fair sense of morals and right and wrong aren't we? unlike this proposed god bloke.
  • the ferry
    the ferry Posts: 258
    ....its relevant to me as i said i have just been reading about them. The thing i was suggesting is that our faith is not just rooted in the spiritual but has real practical value and can challenge and change the society around us.
    A man filled with the conviction of the holy spirit stopped the hell of the gin joints. I for one was not aware of the depth of depravity around at the time, 5yr olds drinking gin was certainly not the worst thing happening.
  • jrduquemin
    jrduquemin Posts: 791
    According to Tom Araya (Slayer vocalist):

    Religion is rape,
    Religion is fear,
    Religion is war,
    Religion is hate,
    Religion's obscene,
    Religion's a whore.

    I was engaged to a girl a few years back who was in a baptist church. She was practically a religious zealot who used to have a go at me because I wouldn't go to church with her. Glad to see the back of her now... :-D
    2010 Lynskey R230
    2013 Yeti SB66
  • mfin
    mfin Posts: 6,729
    edited October 2009
    the ferry wrote:
    ....its relevant to me as i said i have just been reading about them. The thing i was suggesting is that our faith is not just rooted in the spiritual but has real practical value and can challenge and change the society around us.
    A man filled with the conviction of the holy spirit stopped the hell of the gin joints. I for one was not aware of the depth of depravity around at the time, 5yr olds drinking gin was certainly not the worst thing happening.

    Ohhh.... so it was only his religious faith that made him do that was it, and everything thats 'rights related' comes about from people who are godly does it??? Just by pure odds a proportion of them will be religious ...surely you can see that?

    There's plenty of examples of catholic priests 'filled with the holy spirit' doing some quite disgusting activities, just to swing the see-saw back for you.
  • bobpzero
    bobpzero Posts: 1,431
    God's sovereignty and man's responsibility. if you care to understand or if not
  • _Brun_
    _Brun_ Posts: 1,740
    bobpzero wrote:
    God's sovereignty and man's responsibility. if you care to understand or if not
    So man takes the blame if he buggers small boys, but if man saves children from depraved gin hell, God gets the credit rather than man.

    Got to hand it this God fella, he's got it all sussed out.
  • mfin
    mfin Posts: 6,729
    _Brun_ wrote:
    bobpzero wrote:
    God's sovereignty and man's responsibility. if you care to understand or if not
    So man takes the blame if he buggers small boys, but if man saves children from depraved gin hell, God gets the credit rather than man.

    Got to hand it this God fella, he's got it all sussed out.

    Yeah, and God doesn't even get any points docked for knowing what the bloke was up to, being able to stop it but still just letting the man bugger the small boys. Cos 'god is love' and all that.

    I'm beginning to think this god stuff might be made up you know, its just too stupid.
  • the ferry
    the ferry Posts: 258
    ....i had years thinking the same arguments so can easily understand the disbelief,anger and frustration.
    We can only point to faith (dont worry i can feel your incredluty at that!) faith in a generous living God.

    Sin is around us everywhere be it catholic priests or whatever.

    From my own humble point of view life is now a rich beautiful amazing gift with God at the centre. This was not the case without salvation.
  • Stewie Griffin
    Stewie Griffin Posts: 4,330
    Slightly OT. I went out with a Sai Baba devotee for a very short while. Very pretty Indian girl. I thought it was going quite well until she told me that she knew that I wasnt the one after 2 dates. I asked her how she knew, had I done something wrong or offended her somehow, I assured her that I hadnt meant to. Its not your fault at all she assured me, but Sai Baba hasnt appeared to me to tell me that you are the one for me.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sathya_Sai_Baba

    I listened to her explaining her religious beliefs and agreed with her that if her God hadnt appeared to her then it wasnt to be and that I fully understood. Then I ran away as fast as I could :lol:

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