Its sunday, lets have a religious debate!

mfin

There is no purpose in life, do what you want, enjoy yourself. It'd be nice if that wasn't something ghastly that affects other people, but be happy, die, get chucked in a hole and rot, just like everything else does. What's the big problem with that?

Anonymous

I think the Catholic church is a corrupt and damaging force.
Islam is another damaging force, very extreme.
Judaism is marginalised and has been persecuted in the name of other eligions for centuries.
Protestants were oppesed to the Roman catholic way.

Its all a pile of shite really.

Thing is you can't prove God exists, but people believe in it.
People love each other but you can't prove that either.
Luck is another thing that people accept but does it exist?
happiness is a feling but you can't quantify that either.

Just some thoughts.

For me any God that existed for man died on the Somme, Auschwitz, Rwanda, Cambodia, Sudan, Ethiopia take your pick...

snailracer

johnfinch wrote:

snailracer wrote:

Whether or not religion is "truth", it is noticeable that almost all human societies of any significant size, have a substantial religious element in their history and/or present.

Religion gave societies cold, hard-headed survival advantages over those that did not have it. Otherwise, atheistic societies would be more prominently represented throughout the world. This Darwinian-esque fact makes it difficult for me to dismiss the significance of religion in human affairs.

In 1000 years maybe atheism will be the norm.

It's very hard to say that something has lasted x number of years/centuries/millenia, therefore that is the way for societies to gain advantages, because look how long feudalism lasted, for example - many people in the 14th century would have seen that as the unalterable natural order.

<Ponders deeply, taps pipe, fumbles in tweed jacket for more tobacco...>

Feudalism was a method of socio-economic organisation that lasted several hundred years. It can not really be compared to a phenomenon that has its roots all the way back to the dawn of humanity.

STEFANOS4784

Easter eggs are nice.

snailracer

dmclite wrote:

I think the Catholic church is a corrupt and damaging force.
Islam is another damaging force, very extreme.
Judaism is marginalised and has been persecuted in the name of other eligions for centuries.
Protestants were oppesed to the Roman catholic way.

Its all a pile of shite really.

Thing is you can't prove God exists, but people believe in it.
People love each other but you can't prove that either.
Luck is another thing that people accept but does it exist?
happiness is a feling but you can't quantify that either.

Just some thoughts.

For me any God that existed for man died on the Somme, Auschwitz, Rwanda, Cambodia, Sudan, Ethiopia take your pick...

Well, the Romans thought they had Christianity sorted when he had them crucified enmasse and the survivors thrown to the lions, and the Jews routed in the Fortress of Massala.

The episodes you quote are horrendous, but of no particular significance in the historical context. Religion has survived, in fact thrived, in the face of full-on assaults from all four horsemen of the apocalypse, throughout millenia. In an age of (at least for us in the developed world) comparative stability and comfort, the traditional religions have waned, but there is no shortage of converts to "alternative" religions, similarly characterised by belief in irrational concepts.

STEFANOS4784

Christmas is also nice.

Anonymous

Is religion more prolific in developing countries where life is more challenging ? Is the west guilty of apathy and therefore religion has slipped off our agenda to a certain degree?

Religion as a moral "guide" to living may be a good thing but it does tend to go a bit "Animal farm" in the end.

Christmas and easter are lovely, especially when you have young children, happy days.

STEFANOS4784

Can't beat a bit of ramadan.

Anonymous

I like the fact that Ramadam has a fast, but you can trough out on the night time, convenient eh?

Anonymous

Divali is nice too.

desweller

STEFANOS4784 wrote:

Christmas is also nice.

You like chocolate, don't you.

And pressies.

STEFANOS4784

+1 for Mardi gras, great laugh down 'Norton'. Can get a bit punchy though :shock:

Not a huge fan o choc though, booze on the other hand.......

andy162

There was this agnostic once. He was also dyslexic & an insomniac too. Every night he would lay awake wondering if there really was a Dog.

Firecrakka

I'll let the late George Carlin sum it up for me...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNy6ziOyxoA

Anonymous

I like it when my kids do cute nativity plays at school.

Makes religion seem worthwhile.

volvine

as far as i can see if people stuck to religion as it was meant to be instead of twisting it to suit themselves the world would be a better place.
do not kill,do not steal ect
these are the first things preached in most religions so why then go out and start wars against other religions and break these rules baffles me it is all about power and money.

MattC59

Faith is fine..... if a little misguided. In my opinion, organised religion is where the problems lie.

That's all I'm saying on this one before I go off into a rant and steam comes out of my ears

Spiny_Norman

dmclite wrote:

I like the fact that Ramadam has a fast, but you can trough out on the night time, convenient eh?

Not if you live in the Arctic Circle.

finchy

snailracer wrote:

<Ponders deeply, taps pipe, fumbles in tweed jacket for more tobacco...>

Feudalism was a method of socio-economic organisation that lasted several hundred years. It can not really be compared to a phenomenon that has its roots all the way back to the dawn of humanity.

<Adjusts monocle, picks nose, finds a really tasty piece of snot...>

I wasn't comparing the two, just saying that it's difficult to say that something has survived up until point x, therefore it has some evolutionary edge over other systems.

Comparing religious societies to atheistic ones is a bit misleading because, as you point out, religion goes all the way back - whereas atheism is a new one.

As far as I see it - and I haven't given it that much thought, so I may be wrong - religion answers (or tries to answer) three questions - where do we come from, how should we live our lives, what happens when we die?

Of course to pre-modern societies, questions 1 & 3 are best answered by the existence of a god, or gods, because what real alternative did they have?

Gotte

I think it's always a bit of a red herring, that whole, "Religion is the root of man's inhumanity to man, just look at the suffering it caused over the centuries" arguement.
If you really want to see the root of man's inhumanity to man, I'd look at politics. True, politics often paid lip service to religion in its quest to generate revenue, but religion is really kept under a tight leash. In fact, true religious zeal is looked on with real suspicion by anyone in power, and as such marginalised.
You can look at the Catholic church and its terrible record in the New World as a good example. In reality, saving souls was the least of the motivations for the Church's involvement. Wealth and influence were the true motivators.
Of course, the other interesting thing is how often the notion of God is confused with religion.
Personally, I would say religion has very little to do with a notion of divinity. Religion is a byporduct of man's desire to regulate and exclude. It's all admin, really, rules and regulations.
Divinity is perhaps man's immutable belief in the notion of hope, of beauty, of humanity, of betterment. I'd say you can see God in the way someone believes, not necessarily what they believe, in the turn of a flock of birds, in an equation that explains the universe.
But that's just me.
Now if we could ban politics, then the world might truly be a better place.

holmeboy

Where did the Universe and all that's in it come from then? Just interested to know. :twisted:

deptfordmarmoset

Though I'm an atheist, the religious studies part of the curriculum can make for some interesting moments: a couple of years ago the yr3/4 kids were asked to do a drawing for each day of the week as per Genesis. Little Tim suddenly called me over and asked ''how do you spell ''jail'?''. ''Jail?'' I wondered, ''why do you want to spell ''jail?'' ''Because on Sunday god got arrested'' he answered.

2 years later it still makes me laugh.

teagar

holmeboy wrote:

Where did the Universe and all that's in it come from then? Just interested to know. :twisted:

Don't know.

holmeboy

teagar wrote:

holmeboy wrote:

Where did the Universe and all that's in it come from then? Just interested to know. :twisted:

Don't know.

Oooooo! come on somebody on here must know! Don't be shy! :evil:

pneumatic

Spirituality is natural to human minds (but often supressed); it is part of the natural processes of the unconscious. Ask a neuroscientist.

Religion is spirituality gone wrong.

It usually goes wrong because people start taking it too literally and/or use it as a dump for all their primitive anxiety about other people. Me good; they evil. And what is more, god agrees with me so I get to kill them for being wrong and nobody will mind.

snailracer

pneumatic wrote:

Spirituality is natural to human minds (but often supressed); it is part of the natural processes of the unconscious. Ask a neuroscientist.

Religion is spirituality gone wrong.

It usually goes wrong because people start taking it too literally and/or use it as a dump for all their primitive anxiety about other people. Me good; they evil. And what is more, god agrees with me so I get to kill them for being wrong and nobody will mind.

+1
I think religious belief, spirituality, call it what you will, is hard-wired into the human brain. It can be overridden. Nonetheless, religious people report being happier than atheists, so being religious seems to be the "happier" (and therefore preferred) choice for most people.

finchy

dmclite wrote:

I think the Catholic church is a corrupt and damaging force.
Islam is another damaging force, very extreme.
Judaism is marginalised and has been persecuted in the name of other eligions for centuries.
Protestants were oppesed to the Roman catholic way.

How do you decide which religions are damaging and which aren't?

Pretty much all religions go through their oppressive periods, I think that it is really based more upon how harsh life is for the particular society. For example, Protestants have burnt a fair few Catholics at the stake, and I believe that the utterly barbaric Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda are protestant as well. Far removed from 21st century CofE church services though. Similarly, the treatment of women is much better in, say, a middle-class Turkish environment than some backwards Afghan small town.

You could also add to that list Hinduism, with it's degrading caste system, Judaism for Israeli oppression of Arabs (oh, look, I've found a can of worms, best open it ), I don't know enough about Shintoism and Buddhism to comment on these religions.

While I think that many people will use God as an excuse to carry out savage acts, there is also an inherent danger in belief that there is a higher force, which carries more meaning than human life, although that said there is also the valid counter-argument that belief in a creator God means that life should be held as sacred, and not to be violated.

Jez mon

holmeboy wrote:

Where did the Universe and all that's in it come from then? Just interested to know. :twisted:

It came from God, happy now?

Now where did God come from, or is he simply allowed to create himself. Even if s/he/it is allowed to create her/him/itself, that's not proof for the God of classical theism, which is what any thread about religion is surely about!

I would tend to disagree that as we have "progressed" as mankind that our need for religion has reduced. There is a hugely powerful religious right in the world's biggest super power, and whilst it doesn't directly take the blame for suicide bombings etc. It does have an awful lot of power and often engages in what i would regard as morally dubious activity.

andy162

holmeboy wrote:

Where did the Universe and all that's in it come from then? Just interested to know. :twisted:

Adopts Stephen Hawking voice...

The Universe is thought to have formed 13.7 billion years ago. Although it could be as young as 10 billion years or as old as 20. The precise point when the Universe was born has become known as The Big Bang. Before this time did not exist nor did anything. All matter & energy was contained within one infinately dense point called a " singularity". This was thought to be no bigger than an apple.

When this event happened time began & the Universe expanded from this central point. It is still expanding today. What was there before The Big Bang? No scientist can answer that.

teagar

holmeboy wrote:

teagar wrote:

holmeboy wrote:

Where did the Universe and all that's in it come from then? Just interested to know. :twisted:

Don't know.

Oooooo! come on somebody on here must know! Don't be shy! :evil:

That's the point surely? If you're an atheist you think you don't know. If you're christian you probably think you do know etc.

I don't feel the need to know. I don't care where it comes from. For me, established religion answers questions I either have my own answers for, or questions I don't care about.