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Think i've finally lost all respect for Liggett...

MoomaloidMoomaloid Posts: 2,040
edited July 2009 in Pro race
Check out this interview (bottom of the list) with him on Steephill. trying to say that Alberto wasn't riding as a team player. It was HIS team!!

http://www.steephill.tv/tour-de-france/
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  • afx237viafx237vi Posts: 12,630
    You mean the SBS one? Yeah, it's pretty bad.

    "This guy is not a team player, he was out to get time whenever he could." What, in a race? OUTRAGEOUS BEHAVIOUR.

    I wonder who they'll blame next year?
  • bipedalbipedal Posts: 466
    Liggett is a fanboy... But he's still not as bad as sherwen
  • Le CommentateurLe Commentateur Posts: 4,099
    edited July 2009
    It's an Anglo conspiracy!

    Actually I think that what he says about Contador being a young rider with such a supreme talent that he doesn't need to rely on others is fair comment. The implication is that Contador doesn't (yet) have or understand the need to build long-term working relationships with people, though you might just as easily argue that he wasn't comfortable in an English-speaking team and developed a sense of being an outsider that influenced his interaction with team-mates.

    It's interesting to compare Astana in 2009 with CSC in 2008, where both Sastre and the Schlecks were touted as race winners. Is Satre taking his chance on Alpe d'Huez much different from Contador's moves in Arcalis or Verbier? Armstrong was asked in June who will lead Astana and he answered “the race will sort it out”. Well, he was right.

    I think we have witnessed a coup taking place though, with Levi and Alberto's ambitions being demoted in favour of the Armstrong odyssey. Levi just seems to have rolled over and accepted his lot.
  • takethehighroadtakethehighroad Posts: 5,989
    I thinhk this is the point here. It;s not that Contador won the Tour, it;s that he beat Lance.

    But if you imagine his situation. He signed a contract (whenever it was, I profess to not knowing this) which had him as team leader for the Tour.

    And then Armstrong announces his comeback with Bruyneel, which leaves Contador thinking "Well what about my ambitions" He has a career to think of after all.

    To say Lance is a team player once he realised he couldn't win is ridiculous. It's like saying Frank started to help Andy once he realised he couldn't beat him. Frank and Lance both knew Andy and Alberto were better than them, it's just Frank had a better way of showing it.
  • takethehighroadtakethehighroad Posts: 5,989
    I thinhk this is the point here. It;s not that Contador won the Tour, it;s that he beat Lance.

    But if you imagine his situation. He signed a contract (whenever it was, I profess to not knowing this) which had him as team leader for the Tour.

    And then Armstrong announces his comeback with Bruyneel, which leaves Contador thinking "Well what about my ambitions" He has a career to think of after all.

    To say Lance is a team player once he realised he couldn't win is ridiculous. It's like saying Frank started to help Andy once he realised he couldn't beat him. Frank and Lance both knew Andy and Alberto were better than them, it's just Frank had a better way of showing it.
  • Le CommentateurLe Commentateur Posts: 4,099
    Well for the first time in years I'm already looking forward impatiently for next year's Tour. I just hope the players don't calm down in the interim. Saxo Bank, Tandy, whatever Contador signs with, plus maybe an ongoing rivalry with Garmin and Columbia, Cav going for green again, and possibly an Astana with Vino looking to cause trouble -- it will hopefully be a fantastic dogfight full of intrigue and competitive racing.
  • BuglyBugly Posts: 520
    I am indifferent to LA but his inclusion in the Tour spiced it up. Ligetts comments are fair enough if AC was told not to attack the Schlecks (and he did) he was disobeying team orders and as such was not a team player. The setup at Astana with LA back made the situation difficult for Contador, but the thing in pro cycling is that the team is all and ride against the team orders even if you win you do make enemies.

    Re LA's ride in the Alps - he didnt look to have the legs to go with AS and AC but when he attacked he was careful not to take a contendor up onto AC's wheel, team player? more so then contadar.
  • markwalkermarkwalker Posts: 953
    Bugly wrote:
    I am indifferent to LA but his inclusion in the Tour spiced it up. Ligetts comments are fair enough if AC was told not to attack the Schlecks (and he did) he was disobeying team orders and as such was not a team player. The setup at Astana with LA back made the situation difficult for Contador, but the thing in pro cycling is that the team is all and ride against the team orders even if you win you do make enemies.

    Re LA's ride in the Alps - he didnt look to have the legs to go with AS and AC but when he attacked he was careful not to take a contendor up onto AC's wheel, team player? more so then contadar.
    I think the problem is that the "team" seemed to want a team result that might have been different from Contadors obvious intention to win with a team behind him. Contador seems to have beaten LA/JB in a battle of wills as much as cycling.
    the main critiscism seems to be re dropping Kloden and indications are that that move was agreed with JB/Kloden anyway. Its worth noting that Armstrong could have paced Kloden and not lost his position to rivals but chose to ride straight past.
    Armstrongs ride was nothing short of phenonimal but my respect is completely with AC for winning despite the actions of some members of his team not because of it.
  • RedGreenBaronRedGreenBaron Posts: 232
    edited July 2009
    You can conclude from various twitter postings and common sense that the Astana team's banter was very 'Anglo', and I imagine this became more the case with LA's arrival, who probably speaks for 3 men and understands JB so well. I think AC would have felt quite excluded, particularly given his youth. So I can imagine this would have impacted his 'teamplayerness' significantly. This may sound obvious but is worth stating.

    I'm not aware of him being told not to attack the Schlecks - if so (and I'm not sure which stage that applied to), he made a mistake.
    However, LA's comments (and I'm a big fan), were, at times, unhelpful to the team before as well as during the Tour. He knew the chances of him besting AC were extremely slim, so he should have been more supportive from his first announcement of joining Astana. His comments after AC dropped Klodi were well out of line when he didn't know the facts, particularly given, as mentioned above, he didn't make a big effort to help. And if this was only the tip of the iceberg in terms of his treatment of AC, and there are plenty of stories.....). AC's first 'unhelpful' comment, about the race at the hotel (and, by the way, that was slightly mistranslated) came very late on. What we don't know is if he did make various offers to help or advise AC, but was ignored (eg why did he not make sure AC was right side of wind-split?).

    So, I'm also not impressed with Liggett's comments, although he may have more salient supporting facts.
  • rockmountrockmount Posts: 761
    Really great tactics dropping Klodi on an unnecessary break that only succeeded in handing second place to Andy, and putting Lance under real pressure too.
    .. who said that, internet forum people ?
  • iainf72iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    rockmount wrote:
    Really great tactics dropping Klodi on an unnecessary break that only succeeded in handing second place to Andy, and putting Lance under real pressure too.

    Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • Agree that it was still a mistake in retrospect despite him having checked with Kloden first. A sign of immaturity, perhaps - you could see in his face the uncertainty when he first turned to see Kloden wasn't following. Admittedly he should then have gone for it, or slowed right down for Kloden. But the Shlecks would have attacked and dropped Kloden anyway, so it made no difference.
  • rockmountrockmount Posts: 761
    He should have made Andy work for it, and not just given him a free taxi ride to the podium.
    .. who said that, internet forum people ?
  • iainf72iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    rockmount wrote:
    He should have made Andy work for it, and not just given him a free taxi ride to the podium.

    In all seriousness, he did. Ok, so he did that attack (after consulting Klodi twice) and Klodi got dropped but he'd not done a single turn and he didn't do a turn after that. The Schlecks did all the work and Contador did the honourable thing and let the brothers decide who wins the stage.

    One could argue that if Klodi had been able to ride his own race and not have to nurse Armstrong to Verbiers he would've finished higher up.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • UnsheathUnsheath Posts: 49
    Liggett's favouritism is understandable given that both Phil and Paul's media company from which they lease out their commentary (sorry don't know the name) are on the Livestrong payroll. You'll be hard pressed to hear anything negative about lance for the 3 week telecast and absolutely never ever a reference to the D-bomb!! Personally, I consider it a conflict of interest given that the commentary should always remain neutral.

    What's the most disappointing I guess is how much the casual audience just lap it up as the truth. I know I just cringe when my mates regurgitate that censored that P&P spiel on our weekend rides.
  • KléberKléber Posts: 6,842
    Kloeden bonked, he cracked because his blood sugar ran out. Look again at the way he was riding. When Contador did this in Paris-Nice, someone twittered about inexperience and having "a lot to learn"!

    It's strange, Contador won the race but I feel as if he's the underdog.
  • knedlickyknedlicky Posts: 3,097
    Liggett and Sherwen might be aiming at getting the PR jobs at Radio Shack. Or at least invitations to the Team inauguration party.

    But Liggett’s not entirely wrong in some of what he says …

    It’s correct to say the L’Equipe have been less critical of LA than in previous years, but Liggett neglects to say that’s because ASO fired the previous editors, replacing them LA-friendly journalists, who have to report directly to the LA-friendly ASO board.

    Also, Liggett might be correct to say the French public were more friendly to LA than in the past. Certainly some of the media were claiming this to be the case, for instance, a few celebrity and women’s magazines published articles on him and his family, with appropriate photos (see below), both before and during the Tour, saying he was now milder, and more open and human.

    He was also quoted as saying “I’ve always loved France. You know, it’s like it’s like with a friend, the relationship is sometimes of love sometimes of conflict” and this was judged a 180-degree turn and his reconciliation with the French public, one article even saying the reconciliation was a victory as valuable as his 7 Tour wins.
    During the Tour, it was said he showed ‘a new face’, one example being that he smiled at onlookers when warming up at Annecy, evidently a big contrast to previous years when his nature and his wins were considered cold, and without panache.

    When he disappeared from the Champs Elysees, apparently after just a wave or two to the crowd and without giving autographs despite people clamouring for one, that LA also then jammed a man’s fingers in the car door when he slammed the door, was excused on the grounds LA was hurrying to a hotel to be with his family.

    On Monday, a sports website wrote that even if he didn’t fully achieve his Tour ambition, he’d succeeded in managing to be liked. It was said France had discovered another person, smiling, relaxed, accessible, a family man.
    The website also said that if he had won the Tour, it would have provoked disbelief, doubt and annoyance, but by finishing 3rd and showing himself still a good stage race rider, he’d won respect. Also, it was said, by showing he could suffer in the mountain stages and by admitting he is inferior to Contador, he’d showed he’s human.

    Of course this last bit was written on Monday, before some of the knowledge of what went on in the Astana camp became known, and before the post-Tour slanging match began. I don't know if ASO are involved with any of the magazines or websites that carried such articles.

    3771828572_74a808703b.jpg
    The family man with Maxwell.
    I never knew he ever let his hair grow, it gives him a slight Sarkozy look, maybe that helped in France too?
  • timoid.timoid. Posts: 3,133
    rockmount wrote:
    Really great tactics dropping Klodi on an unnecessary break that only succeeded in handing second place to Andy, and putting Lance under real pressure too.

    And driving a split in the peloton that gave the Schlecks 40 seconds over your team's strongest rider is genius.
    It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.
  • bipedalbipedal Posts: 466
    schlecks were caught out by the split too
  • MoomaloidMoomaloid Posts: 2,040
    For me, by that stage, why should he have stayed with Kloden. After all the sniping that he'd had to put up with, and knowing that he wouldn't be riding with them again, why not go and stick it to man.

    For me Bertie acted like the complete gentleman throughout the Tour. I'm not exactly sure what Liggett wanted from him. To be Lance's pace maker for the whole race until it was impossible for either of them to catch Andy?

    Why should Bertie not attack if he's feeling good. Its a race for goodness sake, and he is the strongest rider. This wasn't the LA show, no matter how much he wanted it to be.

    I think the French response to LA may have cooled slightly because they are happy that their race, that has had a turbulent, and some what dull few years, might actually have a bit more excitement back.

    I just sticks in my throat a bit that Liggo, the guy i grew up listen to and who taught me so many facts about the sport has been blinded by the glare of LA's butterflies. he's just joined the long line of people who have showed Bertie a lack of respect.

    Can't wait for next year
  • Harry182Harry182 Posts: 1,159
    Timoid. wrote:
    rockmount wrote:
    Really great tactics dropping Klodi on an unnecessary break that only succeeded in handing second place to Andy, and putting Lance under real pressure too.

    And driving a split in the peloton that gave the Schlecks 40 seconds over your team's strongest rider is genius.

    Exactly!

    The strongest rider won. Even LA (sort of) admits that. And the fact that the strongest rider won in spite of the internal team politics - all the more power to him!
  • rockmountrockmount Posts: 761
    Harry182 wrote:
    Timoid. wrote:
    rockmount wrote:
    Really great tactics dropping Klodi on an unnecessary break that only succeeded in handing second place to Andy, and putting Lance under real pressure too.

    And driving a split in the peloton that gave the Schlecks 40 seconds over your team's strongest rider is genius.

    Exactly!

    The strongest rider won. Even LA (sort of) admits that. And the fact that the strongest rider won in spite of the internal team politics - all the more power to him!
    Exactly the "team player" looks after himself, and screws his team mates. Right.
    .. who said that, internet forum people ?
  • iainf72iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    rockmount wrote:
    Exactly the "team player" looks after himself, and screws his team mates. Right.

    Screwed which team mate exactly?
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • bipedalbipedal Posts: 466
    Timoid. wrote:
    rockmount wrote:
    Really great tactics dropping Klodi on an unnecessary break that only succeeded in handing second place to Andy, and putting Lance under real pressure too.

    And driving a split in the peloton that gave the Schlecks 40 seconds over your team's strongest rider is genius.

    This didn't happen - of the GC contenders only Armstrong made the split on the stage to Grande Motte. Contador, Schlecks et al. were all in the main peloton 41 seconds back
  • disgruntledgoatdisgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    Can we then, rockmount, logically assume that both Armstrong & Contador are tactical dunces who aren't team players? One for attacking Kloden on the Columbieres and the other for urging 3 teammates to the front to drive a split his co-leader had missed?
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • What i really like was at the end of the steephill videos you get the short interview with Lance where he says he was here racing the tour first of all just for fun! like a holiday! suggesting he managed to get on the podium with very little effort while he was having a laugh along the way," being serious where i needed to be, but mostly here to have fun" You've got to love the underhand cheek of the man! Eagerly awaiting next season!
  • andy_wrxandy_wrx Posts: 3,396
    Why don't you all ride on Sunday and discuss this with Phil personally ?

    http://www.ctc.org.uk/desktopdefault.aspx?tabid=3691
  • disgruntledgoatdisgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    andy_wrx wrote:
    Why don't you all ride on Sunday and discuss this with Phil personally ?

    http://www.ctc.org.uk/desktopdefault.aspx?tabid=3691


    Always wondered about that. Does he ride along going "Look, I'm literally going backwards! I'm saying 'bridge to engine room more power!' and there isn't any! What do you make of it Paul? Paul?"
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • rockmountrockmount Posts: 761
    Can we then, rockmount, logically assume that both Armstrong & Contador are tactical dunces who aren't team players? One for attacking Kloden on the Columbieres and the other for urging 3 teammates to the front to drive a split his co-leader had missed?
    Surely only a fool could fail to see the difference in the two situations. In the split, team leadership had not yet been established, and a clear opportunity presented itself to make a move. Pistolero had a comfortable lead, all he had to do was defend, but he chose to effectively end any hopes Astana may have had for a 1 2 3. Not on my team !
    .. who said that, internet forum people ?
  • disgruntledgoatdisgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    rockmount wrote:
    Can we then, rockmount, logically assume that both Armstrong & Contador are tactical dunces who aren't team players? One for attacking Kloden on the Columbieres and the other for urging 3 teammates to the front to drive a split his co-leader had missed?
    Surely only a fool could fail to see the difference in the two situations. In the split, team leadership had not yet been established, and a clear opportunity presented itself to make a move. Pistolero had a comfortable lead, all he had to do was defend, but he chose to effectively end any hopes Astana may have had for a 1 2 3. Not on my team !

    Firstly, don't call people names, I've managed to post on here for a few months now without it. It makes everything just rub along a bit nicer.

    Secondly.. Why would Contador not try and shed two of the most dangerous riders to his position on GC, especially given the only teammate with him was unable to pull at the front. That's the charitable explanation of it. Unchartiably to Contador, for me if you are going to say "the race decides" then when is the cut off for that? Sauce for the Goose and all that.

    As for Armstrong, Charitably, he saw a chance to put time into the Schlecks et al and took it, Contador got unlucky. Uncharitably, he used teammates to decide an internal team spat. Teammates who are supposed to serve (if you believed teh pre tour hype) both his and Contador's interests.

    It's exactly the same, just that (if we take the uncharitable interpretation of both incidents) Contador did his own dirty work and Armstrong had the team do it for him.
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
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