*Spoliers* Tour de France talk *Spoilers*

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  • shoulder_of_orion
    shoulder_of_orion Posts: 529
    Lance did look strong in the TTT and a bit haggered by the end. He might beat Contador in the ITT but this year for the first time ever, the penultimate stage is a mountaintop finish at Ventoux no less.

    I can see Lance pulling on Yellow on friday evening, possibly even before.

    There should be an almighty battle in the mountains between Astana riders. Blood on the carpet.

    But Lance knows he has one more tour left max and wants his own team. He would be mad to alienate Contador too much. But its just in his nature to wind up his opponents.

    "Here's a guy who's won 7 tours and here's a guy who's one one" Ouch.
  • chriskempton
    chriskempton Posts: 1,245
    Have to agree Lance looked much stronger than Contador yesterday. His turns were longer and stronger, and Bertie was out of the saddle and sprinting to keep his wheel rather a lot.
    I really want Contador to thrash LA, but I think it's going to be really hard fought.
  • DonDaddyD
    DonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
    PR is part of my job (who would have thought) and something troubled me about Armstrong's post TTT interview.

    He is too seasoned, too experienced to not know that what he said "Honestly, I'm here to win it" won't annoy some of his team mates and make him a target to his rivals.

    If he wanted to win, then in the mountains he isn't going to enjoy rivals attacking him at every instance or benefit from a disgruntled team who could easily and justifiably support Contador. Armstrong needs the heat of his back to try and win so why did he put it there?

    If he didn't have the legs, he wouldn't be so bold and brash, because his statement was more a guantlet thrown down than anything else a guantle he didn't have to run...

    If he wants to win and he has diminished in ability I can't see the logic in what he said.

    Then there were his performances in the lead up to the Tour. They were mediocre/respectable for a 37yr old comeback after 4 years out. Suddenly Armstrong is a serious GC contender?

    I'm not saying drugs. But clearly he has been playing a serious psychological game to benefit someone or something and it may not (this time) be Armstrong.

    This tour isn't just interesting because of the cycling and tactics, the larger story is stuff of soap operas and drama, it makes for good reading analysing and watching....

    I'm hooked.
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    A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
  • Eau Rouge
    Eau Rouge Posts: 1,118
    Shoulder of Lamb wrote:
    "Here's a guy who's won 7 tours and here's a guy who's one one" Ouch.

    This is what really winds me up about Lance. Bertie has won one Tour, but he also won both the Giro and the Vuelta last year, but snce they aren't the glorious Tour de France, they don't mean diddly squat to Armstrong.
    The cycling season runs from February to October, it's not just three weeks in July. Once upon a time the best riders rode races all year, won races all year, didn't see anything but their target race as a training ride. Armstrong was not alone in chainging that, but his success with it cemented it as the basis for how the riders view the sport now.

    Anyway, a better way to view that stat, is that here's a guy who's won the last three Grand Tour's he entered and here's another guy who didn't even make the top 10 in his last GT and hasn't done the TdF since 2006.
  • cjcp
    cjcp Posts: 13,345
    Eau Rouge wrote:
    Shoulder of Lamb wrote:
    "Here's a guy who's won 7 tours and here's a guy who's one one" Ouch.

    This is what really winds me up about Lance. Bertie has won one Tour, but he also won both the Giro and the Vuelta last year, but snce they aren't the glorious Tour de France, they don't mean diddly squat to Armstrong.
    The cycling season runs from February to October, it's not just three weeks in July. Once upon a time the best riders rode races all year, won races all year, didn't see anything but their target race as a training ride. Armstrong was not alone in chainging that, but his success with it cemented it as the basis for how the riders view the sport now.

    Anyway, a better way to view that stat, is that here's a guy who's won the last three Grand Tour's he entered and here's another guy who didn't even make the top 10 in his last GT and hasn't done the TdF since 2006.

    +1. Maybe adopt the Sastre approach and show some humility.

    ER - I vaguely recall some proposal to move the Vuelta to before the TdF to improve its popularity. Did you ever hear anything about this?
    FCN 2-4.

    "What happens when the hammer goes down, kids?"
    "It stays down, Daddy."
    "Exactly."
  • DonDaddyD
    DonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
    Eau Rouge wrote:
    Shoulder of Lamb wrote:
    "Here's a guy who's won 7 tours and here's a guy who's one one" Ouch.

    This is what really winds me up about Lance. Bertie has won one Tour, but he also won both the Giro and the Vuelta last year, but snce they aren't the glorious Tour de France, they don't mean diddly squat to Armstrong.
    The cycling season runs from February to October, it's not just three weeks in July. Once upon a time the best riders rode races all year, won races all year, didn't see anything but their target race as a training ride. Armstrong was not alone in chainging that, but his success with it cemented it as the basis for how the riders view the sport now.

    Anyway, a better way to view that stat, is that here's a guy who's won the last three Grand Tour's he entered and here's another guy who didn't even make the top 10 in his last GT and hasn't done the TdF since 2006.

    For athletes its all about the olympics

    For footballers its all about the World Cup, or if they aren't good enough another such competiton.

    There will always be a pinnacle competition for each sport.

    For Armstrong its the Tour de France.

    If I won the Champions League 7 times in a row but failed to win any other competition, would my achievement not be of merit?

    Lance is awesome and he makes things interesting. (If you can seperate the personal feelings from the spectatorship).
    Food Chain number = 4

    A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
  • dirk_van_gently
    dirk_van_gently Posts: 826
    cjcp wrote:
    . Maybe adopt the Sastre approach and show some humility.
    HUM-what? LA? not in his vocab
    cjcp wrote:
    ER - I vaguely recall some proposal to move the Vuelta to before the TdF to improve its popularity. Did you ever hear anything about this?
    Vuelta used to be earlier in the year, but was moved to September a long time ago.
    If you see the candle as flame, the meal is already cooked.
    Photography, Google Earth, Route 30
  • cjcp
    cjcp Posts: 13,345
    Dirk Van Gently wrote:
    cjcp wrote:
    ER - I vaguely recall some proposal to move the Vuelta to before the TdF to improve its popularity. Did you ever hear anything about this?
    Vuelta used to be earlier in the year, but was moved to September a long time ago.

    Ah, I see. Ta. It must have been a story about moving it back then.
    FCN 2-4.

    "What happens when the hammer goes down, kids?"
    "It stays down, Daddy."
    "Exactly."
  • Sewinman
    Sewinman Posts: 2,131
    I love Lance, I particularly like his arrogance and determination. He is a winner. It is typical he is hated by some UK cycling fans - the country that thinks fondly of losers like Henman and Frank Bruno.

    I am surprised no-one has started laying into Cav - his personality is very like Lance's from what I have seen.

    Player haters :roll:
  • DonDaddyD
    DonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
    Sewinman wrote:
    I love Lance, I particularly like his arrogance and determination. He is a winner. It is typical he is hated by some UK cycling fans - the country that thinks fondly of losers like Henman and Frank Bruno.

    + Mofo 1!!!

    Team America f*ck YEAH!! They've come to save the mutha *ucking day yeah!!!
    I am surprised no-one has started laying into Cav - his personality is very like Lance's from what I have seen.

    Player haters :roll:

    It's already started, Cav has got his critics and they'll become more vocal as Cav's success increases.
    Food Chain number = 4

    A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
  • shoulder_of_orion
    shoulder_of_orion Posts: 529
    Lance is the master of the psychological warfare - when he was up against Ulrich, Pantani, Basso et al they all knew he was better than him and he would wind them up in the first week then make a big statement on the first mountain stage. He normally had it won by then.

    This time its different as nobody really know what kind of climbing shape he is in. Should make friday fascinating. I can see an elite group, the Astana boys, Shleck, Evans, Sastre 10 riders tops all attacking each other and the main peloton and putting time between them and the peloton (probably including Cancellara).

    I have a lot of friends and family in France and they HATE Lance. Not because of the British reasons (eg Henman) but because he shows no emotions or love for the traditions of the tour (and because he is American). In fact he is referred to as "the american" by many. I have huge respect for what he has achieved, but not the manner in which he has done it. He's a bit like Schumaker in that respect. Undeniably great, but in a mean spirited kind of way.
  • Eau Rouge
    Eau Rouge Posts: 1,118
    "DonDaddyD wrote:
    There will always be a pinnacle competition for each sport.

    Indeed there is, and the Tour de France is the pinnacle of the cycling calendar, but it's not out there all on it's own the way the Champions League or Olympics are in other sports. The other 2 GT are not quite as prestigious, but they aren't that far bahind at all, especially the Giro which is a better race to actually watch, by the way, and the 5 Monuments vie with them for prominance. Thats 7 other races at the pinnacle of world cycling, There are a whole tier of races bubbling under that, lead by the World Championships. The best cycling is in Apri, for example. Lance dismisses it all as mere training. I think he's very wrong and does the sport a huge diservice.

    I don't know about moving the Vuelta. March risks riders not trying as they aren't yet in full racing form for the season. April means fighting for attention with the classics, many of whom are run mid-week. It might ensure Spanish stage winners though, the Spanish would happily give up the cobbles for their home tour.
  • DonDaddyD
    DonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
    War isn't won through generousity or kindness.

    Tennis isn't won because you serve genetly

    Football isn't won by scoring own goals and tackling softly.

    So why do people have this issue with Lance Armstrong.

    Winners don't give an inch or quarter.
    Food Chain number = 4

    A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
  • bigmat
    bigmat Posts: 5,134
    Good thread - will read it properly later, after work.

    On Cavendish - the Monaco TT was pretty damn hilly. Cav can do well in short time trials (won the ToB prologue a couple of years back) but this was definitely not his cup of tea. He looked visibly slow when he went past me, and I'm pretty sure he was taking it fairly easy. In years to come he'll attack the prologue to get a chance at an early yellow jersey, but not this year.

    On Wiggins - couple of earlier comments knocking his climbing; this has improved massively this year as his body weight has dropped a lot. I hear he is going for a top 20 finish. Don't be surprised to see him hanging in the hills.

    On Lance - my feeling is he wouldn't be there unless he felt he could win. Saying that, I think Contador should be stronger, and Friday will be telling. Evans and Sastre really need to attack and whilst Evans never attacks, Friday could be a good stage for him (mountain top finish, not too steep so suits power climbers). When somebody attacks on Friday, Contador will be able to respond and we'll then see if Lance can match him.

    On team time trials - they suck! Potentially ruined this race, we're now relying on Armstrong and Contador to duke it out, if they follow usual team strategy then they've practically got it sewn up already and it could be dull dull dull.
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  • bigmat
    bigmat Posts: 5,134
    ps. DDD, there are many reasons why people aren't so keen on Lance. Google "Armstrong and Simeoni" and read the story for yourself. It doesn't reflect well on the man. I'll say no more about it as there are countless threads in the "Road: Pro Race" section discussing those kinds of issues, but it goes beyond the usual "knocking the winner" syndrome.
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/41991871@N ... otostream/
  • cjcp
    cjcp Posts: 13,345
    MatHammond wrote:
    Good thread - will read it properly later, after work.

    On Cavendish - the Monaco TT was pretty damn hilly. Cav can do well in short time trials (won the ToB prologue a couple of years back) but this was definitely not his cup of tea. He looked visibly slow when he went past me, and I'm pretty sure he was taking it fairly easy. In years to come he'll attack the prologue to get a chance at an early yellow jersey, but not this year.

    You git. You were there? :)

    There was some criticism of the atmosphere. What was it like?
    FCN 2-4.

    "What happens when the hammer goes down, kids?"
    "It stays down, Daddy."
    "Exactly."
  • Eau Rouge
    Eau Rouge Posts: 1,118
    Sewinman wrote:
    II am surprised no-one has started laying into Cav - his personality is very like Lance's from what I have seen.:

    Really? You've been looking at a very different Cav to me then. I'd go so far as to refer to Cav as an anti-Lance.

    Cav is outpsoken on his views about drugs in cycling, Lance seems to respect drug cheats more the less guilt they admit.
    Cav sees himself firmly as the last cog in a winning machine, refusing to take all the credit for himself. Lance thinks he's the greatest cyclists that ever was despite never winning the Giro, Veulta nor a single Monument.
    Cav puts as much effort in winning stages in Tirrano-Adriatico or the Tour of Ireland as he does stages in the Tour. Lance sees them as mere training rides.
  • Sewinman
    Sewinman Posts: 2,131
    Eau Rouge wrote:
    Sewinman wrote:
    II am surprised no-one has started laying into Cav - his personality is very like Lance's from what I have seen.:

    Really? You've been looking at a very different Cav to me then. I'd go so far as to refer to Cav as an anti-Lance.

    Cav is outpsoken on his views about drugs in cycling, Lance seems to respect drug cheats more the less guilt they admit.
    Cav sees himself firmly as the last cog in a winning machine, refusing to take all the credit for himself. Lance thinks he's the greatest cyclists that ever was despite never winning the Giro, Veulta nor a single Monument.
    Cav puts as much effort in winning stages in Tirrano-Adriatico or the Tour of Ireland as he does stages in the Tour. Lance sees them as mere training rides.

    Lance was tweeting only the other day that he was hanging out with 'The Greatest' - Eddie Mercx.

    Anyway - I meant his personality not his preference in race schedules.
  • bigmat
    bigmat Posts: 5,134
    cjcp wrote:
    MatHammond wrote:
    Good thread - will read it properly later, after work.

    On Cavendish - the Monaco TT was pretty damn hilly. Cav can do well in short time trials (won the ToB prologue a couple of years back) but this was definitely not his cup of tea. He looked visibly slow when he went past me, and I'm pretty sure he was taking it fairly easy. In years to come he'll attack the prologue to get a chance at an early yellow jersey, but not this year.

    You git. You were there? :)

    There was some criticism of the atmosphere. What was it like?

    Must admit it wasn't as busy as I'd expected. Suited me though - meant I was able to get round the tour village to check out all the bikes, and get good spots on the hills, 200m from the finish and then at the start ramp for the last dozen or so riders. Was also hot as hell and I had a baby with me so any more crowds could have made things a bit tricky!
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/41991871@N ... otostream/
  • Christophe3967
    Christophe3967 Posts: 1,200
    Shoulder of Lamb wrote:
    I have a lot of friends and family in France and they HATE Lance. Not because of the British reasons (eg Henman) but because he shows no emotions or love for the traditions of the tour (and because he is American). In fact he is referred to as "the american" by many. I have huge respect for what he has achieved, but not the manner in which he has done it. He's a bit like Schumaker in that respect. Undeniably great, but in a mean spirited kind of way.

    Come on, the real reason we hate LA - he wears black socks. :evil:
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  • cjcp
    cjcp Posts: 13,345
    :lol: Classic. Maybe it's not over!! Tonight's viewing should be good once again.
    FCN 2-4.

    "What happens when the hammer goes down, kids?"
    "It stays down, Daddy."
    "Exactly."
  • Jamey
    Jamey Posts: 2,152
    Ok, I have a a n00b question (so go easy on me)...

    Watching it live on Eurosport at the mo... So those five or six 'escapees' ahead of the main peoloton... Are any of them going to win the stage? I can't hear anyone saying "Cavendish is gonna have to work to catch them up" so I assume there's going to be a point where the main peloton (or at least the front few) catch up to the escapees and go past them.

    If so, what's the point in those five/six riders even bothering to go out the front like that?
    My photography // My helmet cam videos // My bike
  • sampras38
    sampras38 Posts: 1,917
    Always Tyred wrote:
    cjcp wrote:
    I think we should drop the LA-drug stuff and stick to the racing. As said above, there's lots of threads about this on the Road section of BR.

    DDD - not a dig at you; just think we should stick to armchair commentating. :)
    What about Eddie Mercx? Look at all the riders from the 70's who took drugs, and the poor testing regimes of the time. The guy was so good he must have been taking drugs. He's also a mate of Lance Armstrong, the well known drugs cheat.
    Its PROOF I tell you.

    Mercx actually failed 3 tests in his career, although he did argue that 2 of them were false. It was very different back then but he certainly wasn't as pure as people think.
  • DonDaddyD
    DonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
    Looks like a boring stage today....

    Bring on the Mountains!
    Food Chain number = 4

    A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
  • Capo
    Capo Posts: 439
    Jamey wrote:
    Ok, I have a a n00b question (so go easy on me)...

    Watching it live on Eurosport at the mo... So those five or six 'escapees' ahead of the main peoloton... Are any of them going to win the stage? I can't hear anyone saying "Cavendish is gonna have to work to catch them up" so I assume there's going to be a point where the main peloton (or at least the front few) catch up to the escapees and go past them.

    If so, what's the point in those five/six riders even bothering to go out the front like that?

    They'll almost certainly be caught (although lead over main peloton back up to 1'27" with 14km left, which into a headwind is maybe leaving it late to be 100% sure of catching them).

    So, why do it?

    Well, getting into a four, five or six man breakaway keeps the sponsors happy, they get exposure through the riders being featured at the front of the race.

    Second, there's always the chance that the breakaway might succeed and that for whatever reason, it won't get caught. It doesn't often happen, but when it does it makes for great TV (and unexpected stage winners).

    Also, there is the Prix de La Combativite - 'Combativity Award" of 2,000 euros each stage for the most attacking cyclist and this often goes to someone in a breakaway. (More on it here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combativity_award).

    Last but by no means least, and given there are two locals in today's breakaway, it's about the only chance the French riders have of getting their faces on TV... :wink:

    Still just over a minute ahead with 7km left - this is going to be close...
    Can\'t drive, won\'t drive
  • Capo
    Capo Posts: 439
    DonDaddyD wrote:
    Looks like a boring stage today....

    Bring on the Mountains!

    Eh? You watching the same stage as me? Breakaway riders starting to attack each other and look like they may not get caught by peloton... fascinating...
    Can\'t drive, won\'t drive
  • sampras38
    sampras38 Posts: 1,917
    Shoulder of Lamb wrote:
    Lance is the master of the psychological warfare - when he was up against Ulrich, Pantani, Basso et al they all knew he was better than him and he would wind them up in the first week then make a big statement on the first mountain stage. He normally had it won by then.

    This time its different as nobody really know what kind of climbing shape he is in. Should make friday fascinating. I can see an elite group, the Astana boys, Shleck, Evans, Sastre 10 riders tops all attacking each other and the main peloton and putting time between them and the peloton (probably including Cancellara).

    I have a lot of friends and family in France and they HATE Lance. Not because of the British reasons (eg Henman) but because he shows no emotions or love for the traditions of the tour (and because he is American). In fact he is referred to as "the american" by many. I have huge respect for what he has achieved, but not the manner in which he has done it. He's a bit like Schumaker in that respect. Undeniably great, but in a mean spirited kind of way.

    But there is always another side, and another view might be he's unpopular with a lot of French because he spanked them at their own sport.

    Horses for courses really...;-)
  • Capo
    Capo Posts: 439
    Peloton now flying - made up 15 secs in last km but only 3.5km left and 44 sec gap...
    Can\'t drive, won\'t drive
  • DonDaddyD
    DonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
    Capo wrote:
    DonDaddyD wrote:
    Looks like a boring stage today....

    Bring on the Mountains!

    Eh? You watching the same stage as me? Breakaway riders starting to attack each other and look like they may not get caught by peloton... fascinating...

    I'm watching this:
    http://www.letour.fr/us/homepage_courseTDF.html

    Yes its dots on a screen, practically Pong....

    I need HD...
    Food Chain number = 4

    A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
  • Capo
    Capo Posts: 439
    Blimey a French stage win - Thomas Voeckler of Bbox, in the six-man breakaway all day then blew them apart with an attack a few km from the end.

    Cav 2nd or 3rd as the peloton swallowed up the other escapees.
    Can\'t drive, won\'t drive

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