RLJ Fools!

Deadeye Duck

BenBlyth wrote:

Deadeye Duck wrote:

If a light is red, you stop. End of story.

Just because you percieve the area to be clear, doesnt mean it is.

Sorry I just can't have this. 1st off I don't jump lights but for an extreme circumstance (Extreme as in I have done it once in 2.5 years of commuting 4 days a week). but you are telling me, you would get to a, hypothetical, light in the middle of nowhere. A road that you can see for a mile in each direction and there is nobody wanting to cross at the crossing and you would stop and sit waiting for the potentially broken light to go green? I'm sorry but I really can't believe that. It surely is about common sense.

Note - This is not encouraging RLJ. It is re-affirming DDD's point about extreme circumstances.

Of course there will be extreme circumstances. There is with anything. My statement was more for general circumstances.

If you're on a road where you can see for miles in every direction. What is the harm in stopping for a few seconds just to reassure yourself that there isn't a reason it's on red?

Porgy

mrcartledge wrote:

On the Essex Road/Canonbury Road crossroads this morning there was a RLJ trap set up by the Police which I have to say brought a big smile to my face.

Great to see the police have their priorities sorted out.

The Rookie

'He who lives by the sword dies by the sword' if your happy to risk mowing down a ped' at a crossing when RLJing, don't complain if a car driver returns the compliment!

Simon

DonDaddyD

I'll make this quick and sweet.

I do stop for red lights. I will always stop at red lights at junctions. I won't turn left at a red light unless safety demands. I will break the law to ensure my safety.

If it is a crossing and could very well be a Zebra I'm a 50/50 man. Sometimes I'll stop, sometimes I'll go through. Numerous variables go through my mind at the time, saftey for myself and the danger i pose to others because of my actions being one of them.

On a bike I have only hit a ped once in my entire life (more than 10yrs of riding a bike and I'm thinking right back to when I was 10). It had nothing to do with red lights, pavement or a crossing.

soy_sauce

i don't see how police fining people RLJ will put them off to commute to work again, if they are new commuter.

commuting today in London with all those traffic prop will put them off alot more than receiving a £30 fine.

beside, if they see police at the juction and still RLJ, then they deserve to pay the fine.
good that the police is out to teach them a lesson, before it is too late.

DonDaddyD

_Brun_ wrote:

Deadeye Duck wrote:

Just because you percieve the area to be clear, doesnt mean it is.

That's a really stupid statement.

It really is.

If you can determine that a zebra crossing is clear then you can determine a crossing with lights is clear and the only thing stopping you from going through is the lights because you have been programmed/taught to always stop for red lights.

Deadeye Duck

DonDaddyD wrote:

_Brun_ wrote:

Deadeye Duck wrote:

Just because you percieve the area to be clear, doesnt mean it is.

That's a really stupid statement.

It really is.

If you can determine that a zebra crossing is clear then you can determine a crossing with lights is clear and the only thing stopping you from going through is the lights because you have been programmed/taught to always stop for red lights.

OK, you're approaching a junction with the red light showing, you look about and can't see anything or anyone that might be crossing, you decide to go through it and hit a cyclist thinking the exact same thing from a different direction. Was it clear to cross, or did you percieve it to be clear?

DonDaddyD

Funny story.

I was behind a Planet X as it was approaching the lights. It braked sharply and with my not so good brakes I had to swerve to not rear end him, as I swered I released the brakes or I would have simply skidded and had an off. My momentum took me through the lights (honest). I didn't actually want to go through the lights because...

A police car was behind us and after I rolled through the lights they attempted to give me a lecture me to which I lectured them back about what had just happened and not wanting to RLJ. I then promptly rode off....

roger_merriman

ped crossing at night tend not to be red as most need someone to press a button, thus your highly unlikely to come across a red crossing at night with out someone using it, though there is one in hampton that activates of it's own free will i must get around to reporting that!

DonDaddyD

Deadeye Duck wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

_Brun_ wrote:

Deadeye Duck wrote:

Just because you percieve the area to be clear, doesnt mean it is.

That's a really stupid statement.

It really is.

If you can determine that a zebra crossing is clear then you can determine a crossing with lights is clear and the only thing stopping you from going through is the lights because you have been programmed/taught to always stop for red lights.

OK, you're approaching a junction with the red light showing,

You are not reading my posts properly so I'll re-post it for clarity:

Posted by MeI will always stop at red lights at junctions

Let me repeat, I will never and never support riding through a red light at a junction.

A crossing on a straight road (with no emerging, joining or side roads either side of you) is different. In that instance whether inside a vehicle or on a bike you should be able to see straight down the road and have a complete view of the crossing. In that instance like a Zebra if it is clear and there is nothing around I might, just might ride through the red lights. Which, was my initial point.

Your example of the Kid running out of the alley isn't entirely accurate. Lets use the Zebra example if the kid can see the car going through or heading towards him why would he run out into the road regardless of the lights unless he has judged the distance and can make it across before they and the car collide.

Aidy

henry_ho_yin wrote:

i don't see how police fining people RLJ will put them off to commute to work again, if they are new commuter.

I commute by bike partly for fun, and partly for economy (amongst other reasons).
Being targetted specifically by police and fined isn't fun. Nor is it economical.
If a novice cyclist, I'd find it discouraging.

simon_ramsey

Don't you ever worry about getting rear ended by an RLJ'er (I know I do)

bigmat

Deadeye Duck wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

_Brun_ wrote:

Deadeye Duck wrote:

Just because you percieve the area to be clear, doesnt mean it is.

That's a really stupid statement.

It really is.

If you can determine that a zebra crossing is clear then you can determine a crossing with lights is clear and the only thing stopping you from going through is the lights because you have been programmed/taught to always stop for red lights.

OK, you're approaching a junction with the red light showing, you look about and can't see anything or anyone that might be crossing, you decide to go through it and hit a cyclist thinking the exact same thing from a different direction. Was it clear to cross, or did you percieve it to be clear?

What if you approach the same junction but there are no traffic lights - how do you cope? I feel sorry for you people, it must be awful hard work out there.

Deadeye Duck

DonDaddyD wrote:

Deadeye Duck wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

_Brun_ wrote:

Deadeye Duck wrote:

Just because you percieve the area to be clear, doesnt mean it is.

That's a really stupid statement.

It really is.

If you can determine that a zebra crossing is clear then you can determine a crossing with lights is clear and the only thing stopping you from going through is the lights because you have been programmed/taught to always stop for red lights.

OK, you're approaching a junction with the red light showing,

You are not reading my posts properly so I'll re-post it for clarity:

b]Posted by Me[/bI will always stop at red lights at junctions

Let me repeat, I will never and never support riding through a red light at a junction.

and you're not reading mine. There's no red lights at zebra crossings.

_Brun_

Deadeye Duck wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

_Brun_ wrote:

Deadeye Duck wrote:

Just because you percieve the area to be clear, doesnt mean it is.

That's a really stupid statement.

It really is.

If you can determine that a zebra crossing is clear then you can determine a crossing with lights is clear and the only thing stopping you from going through is the lights because you have been programmed/taught to always stop for red lights.

OK, you're approaching a junction with the red light showing, you look about and can't see anything or anyone that might be crossing, you decide to go through it and hit a cyclist thinking the exact same thing from a different direction. Was it clear to cross, or did you percieve it to be clear?

Where was this cyclist when we were looking around before deciding it was clear?

If being able to tell if it's safe to proceed is so difficult, how do give way junctions and roundabouts work?

il_principe

Aidy wrote:

henry_ho_yin wrote:

i don't see how police fining people RLJ will put them off to commute to work again, if they are new commuter.

I commute by bike partly for fun, and partly for economy (amongst other reasons).
Being targetted specifically by police and fined isn't fun. Nor is it economical.
If a novice cyclist, I'd find it discouraging.

I don't see the issue. Stick to the rules of the road and you can't be "targetted" I've been commuting for a good few years now, never been stopped by old Bill for violating traffic regs and I get everywhere in good time. Stopping at reds has never caused me any aggro.

il_principe

_Brun_ wrote:

Deadeye Duck wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

_Brun_ wrote:

Deadeye Duck wrote:

Just because you percieve the area to be clear, doesnt mean it is.

That's a really stupid statement.

It really is.

If you can determine that a zebra crossing is clear then you can determine a crossing with lights is clear and the only thing stopping you from going through is the lights because you have been programmed/taught to always stop for red lights.

OK, you're approaching a junction with the red light showing, you look about and can't see anything or anyone that might be crossing, you decide to go through it and hit a cyclist thinking the exact same thing from a different direction. Was it clear to cross, or did you percieve it to be clear?

Where was this cyclist when we were looking around before deciding it was clear?

If being able to tell if it's safe to proceed is so difficult, how do give way junctions and roundabouts work?

I guess the difference at roundabouts etc is that all users are aware about other traffic and are vigilant as a consequence. When going through a green light most of us are not so worried about the unexpected i.e people jumping reds. I've had several close calls with RLJ'ers that I didn't notice, partly as I was not expecting them.

Aidy

jashburnham wrote:

I don't see the issue. Stick to the rules of the road and you can't be "targetted" I've been commuting for a good few years now, never been stopped by old Bill for violating traffic regs and I get everywhere in good time. Stopping at reds has never caused me any aggro.

I've never been stopped either. In about 15 years of cycling.

Once again, I'm not supporting RLJ.
I would, however, like to see more cyclists on the road, and I'm against such heavy handed treatment on a day where many will be attempting a commute by bike for the first time.

Deadeye Duck

_Brun_ wrote:

Where was this cyclist when we were looking around before deciding it was clear?

If being able to tell if it's safe to proceed is so difficult, how do give way junctions and roundabouts work?

just like everyone else, you wait till it's clear and then go.

as for the whereabouts of the other cyclist, part of the scenery was obscuring your view of him approaching when you looked. Thats how these things happen.

My statement didn't test your abilities to percieve the area to be clear. It just said that it doesn't always mean it is. As in there may be something you didn't see.

DonDaddyD

Deadeye Duck wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Deadeye Duck wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

_Brun_ wrote:

Deadeye Duck wrote:

Just because you percieve the area to be clear, doesnt mean it is.

That's a really stupid statement.

It really is.

If you can determine that a zebra crossing is clear then you can determine a crossing with lights is clear and the only thing stopping you from going through is the lights because you have been programmed/taught to always stop for red lights.

OK, you're approaching a junction with the red light showing,

You are not reading my posts properly so I'll re-post it for clarity:

b]Posted by Me[/bI will always stop at red lights at junctions

Let me repeat, I will never and never support riding through a red light at a junction.

and you're not reading mine. There's no red lights at zebra crossings.

Your confusing matters. Your example is dependant on passing a red light at a jucntion.

As Mat pointed out, what if you get to a junction that has't got any lights?

My point is that at a traffic light controlled junction I will not break the red lights.

If I arrive at a pelican (traffic light controlled) crossing on a straight road with no juncition (that's roads either side of me) then I may pass through the red lights and tend to treat the traffic light controlled crossing like a Zebra. There can be nothing oncoming from the right or left as there are no roads on the right or left.

Please don't make me write this again.

For clarity:

At roundabouts we give way to oncoming cars on the right and only enter the roundabout if it is clear or there is time to do so.

On a road with a junction or side roads the major road has priority and those turning onto the road should give way unless instructed otherwise.

Deadeye Duck

DonDaddyD wrote:

Your confusing matters. Your example is dependant on passing a red light at a jucntion.

As Mat pointed out, what if you get to a junction that has't got any lights?

My point is that at a traffic light controlled junction I will not break the red lights.

On a crossing straight road with no juncition (that's roads either side of me) then I may pass through the red lights and tend to treat the traffic light controlled junction like a Zebra.

Please don't make me write this again.

Don't worry, I don't want you to write it again just as much as you don't want to.
My statement simply means you can't always believe what you percieve. In an earlier post I mentioned about people in accidents, they're are the outcome of wrongful percievence. It doesn't mean the person who made the wrong judgement is a bad person and shouldn't be allowed on the roads, as all those people who get out their cars apologising a million times offering to pay for anything and everything prove these things happen. Humans make mistakes.

DonDaddyD

Deadeye Duck wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Your confusing matters. Your example is dependant on passing a red light at a jucntion.

As Mat pointed out, what if you get to a junction that has't got any lights?

My point is that at a traffic light controlled junction I will not break the red lights.

On a crossing straight road with no juncition (that's roads either side of me) then I may pass through the red lights and tend to treat the traffic light controlled junction like a Zebra.

Please don't make me write this again.

Don't worry, I don't want you to write it again just as much as you don't want to.
My statement simply means you can't always believe what you percieve.

Then how do car's drive over Zebra's and determine that they are clear?

How do people emerge from a side road onto a major road.

How the hell do you open the door and not worry that someone is standing behind it?

Deadeye Duck

DonDaddyD wrote:

Deadeye Duck wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Your confusing matters. Your example is dependant on passing a red light at a jucntion.

As Mat pointed out, what if you get to a junction that has't got any lights?

My point is that at a traffic light controlled junction I will not break the red lights.

On a crossing straight road with no juncition (that's roads either side of me) then I may pass through the red lights and tend to treat the traffic light controlled junction like a Zebra.

Please don't make me write this again.

Don't worry, I don't want you to write it again just as much as you don't want to.
My statement simply means you can't always believe what you percieve.

Then how do car's drive over Zebra's and determine that they are clear?

How do people emerge from a side road onto a major road.

How the hell do you open the door and not worry that someone is standing behind it?

it's all down to chance. there's a low chance of someone being on the other side of the door if the only other person is in the same room as me etc.

the chances of something happening if you run a red light are far greater than you going through a green one. It's common sense that you have pulled apart. Look at my original post. I say (in more words) stop at a red light because you don't always know if something might be coming the other way.

Anyway I'm off now, I'll be back on later tonight to defend myself some more though no doubt.

bigmat

I think its a fair point that if you jump a red light and are in then in a collision its almost certainly your fault, but ultimately the same principles should apply at any junction, in fact at any time - be aware what is going on around you, don't endanger anyone else and don't endanger yourself. I don't find it necessary to always stop at red lights to follow these rules. Similarly, I don't ride through a green light without following these rules. Traffic lights are a pain, they slow down and interrupt journeys, and if I can safely avoid stopping at them I will do. Never had an incident yet and I'm confident it will stay that way.

Back to the OP, I agree that its pretty stupid to RLJ when the police are there although I've seen this happen many a time and they usually show no interest, which tends to support the theory its a revenue exercise. My mate got stopped this morning for going the wroong way round a traffic island, the police seem to have picked "numpty" day to top up the coffers!

DonDaddyD

Deadeye Duck wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Deadeye Duck wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Your confusing matters. Your example is dependant on passing a red light at a jucntion.

As Mat pointed out, what if you get to a junction that has't got any lights?

My point is that at a traffic light controlled junction I will not break the red lights.

On a crossing straight road with no juncition (that's roads either side of me) then I may pass through the red lights and tend to treat the traffic light controlled junction like a Zebra.

Please don't make me write this again.

Don't worry, I don't want you to write it again just as much as you don't want to.
My statement simply means you can't always believe what you percieve.

Then how do car's drive over Zebra's and determine that they are clear?

How do people emerge from a side road onto a major road.

How the hell do you open the door and not worry that someone is standing behind it?

it's all down to chance. there's a low chance of someone being on the other side of the door if the only other person is in the same room as me etc.

the chances of something happening if you run a red light are far greater than you going through a green one. It's common sense that you have pulled apart. Look at my original post. I say (in more words) stop at a red light because you don't always know if something might be coming the other way.

Anyway I'm off now, I'll be back on later tonight to defend myself some more though no doubt.

which is why I won't RLJ at a junction because I cannot account for potential oncoming traffic from the side roads.

If there are no side roads the road is just straight and the crossing is clear then the risk is reduced to safe levels.

simon_ramsey

Makes you wonder why the government hasn't had a hard hitting campaign on the TV like the one's for speeding & drink driving. It's dangerous to pedestrians and other cyclists, winds up car drivers, is anti-social behaviour.

If people want to risk their own lives RLJ'ing so be it but their selfish behaviour endangers other people. Why isn't the £30 - £60 the same as a car jumping a red light ?? it's the same offence.

DonDaddyD

You know I've always wondered, how many of the "Don't RLJ" preachers drink and cycle? Do you adhere to the legal car driving limit? How many take recreational drugs? How many stick within the rigid letter of all the laws of the land? If you honestly cannot say you do follow all the laws 100% I think those very high horses need to be dismounted.

bigmat

DonDaddyD wrote:

You know I've always wondered, how many of the none RLJ bunch drink and cycle? Do you adhere to the legal car driving limit? How many take recreational drugs and RLJ? How many stick within the rigid letter of all the laws of the land? If you honestly cannot say you do follow all the laws 100% I think those very high horses need to be dismounted.

+1

Retch

jashburnham wrote:

Aidy wrote:

henry_ho_yin wrote:

i don't see how police fining people RLJ will put them off to commute to work again, if they are new commuter.

I commute by bike partly for fun, and partly for economy (amongst other reasons).
Being targetted specifically by police and fined isn't fun. Nor is it economical.
If a novice cyclist, I'd find it discouraging.

I don't see the issue. Stick to the rules of the road and you can't be "targetted" I've been commuting for a good few years now, never been stopped by old Bill for violating traffic regs and I get everywhere in good time. Stopping at reds has never caused me any aggro.

Amen to that.

It's akin to arguing that you'd give up driving 'cos Old Bill pulled you for speeding. Good! If we want to be part of the traffic, and want to be treated like we have the right to be on the road, then we should abide by the rules of the road.

Just gotten in from riding home. One of those days where every set of lights was red, but that's life. The people who rode straight past me when stopped at a red didn't get home much faster, but they did take a risk and break the law.

We're all happy enough to slag cyclists who behave badly when we're driving - the shoe goes on both feet.

biondino

BenBlyth wrote:

Deadeye Duck wrote:

If a light is red, you stop. End of story.

Just because you percieve the area to be clear, doesnt mean it is.

Sorry I just can't have this. 1st off I don't jump lights but for an extreme circumstance (Extreme as in I have done it once in 2.5 years of commuting 4 days a week). but you are telling me, you would get to a, hypothetical, light in the middle of nowhere. A road that you can see for a mile in each direction and there is nobody wanting to cross at the crossing and you would stop and sit waiting for the potentially broken light to go green? I'm sorry but I really can't believe that. It surely is about common sense.

Note - This is not encouraging RLJ. It is re-affirming DDD's point about extreme circumstances.

Victor Ludorum doesn't post here any more because he's still waiting at a malfunctioning red somewhere in Northumbria.