Giro stage 17 - Blockhaus (spoiler)

124

Comments

  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,711
    Yes, Menchov hasn't exactly covered the magia rosa in glory, but it's exactly what you would expect from a big diesel, that's running on the right mix.
    Still, he did show the strain, today. A small crack it might be, but if offers the possibility of excitement on Versuvius and even stage 20.

    Overall, though, a pretty poor Giro, excitement wise. That 5kms would definitely have made a major difference to today's finishing times, as it had the steepest ramp somehwere on it.

    I expect someone will be along soon, to tell me I've got it all wrong.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • Quite Frankly
    Quite Frankly Posts: 386
    They couldn't get the TV satelite trucks up to the top apparently. A real shame.
  • alanmcn1
    alanmcn1 Posts: 531
    frenchfighter wrote:
    micron wrote:
    You can dress it up all you like as 'good tactics' or 'clever riding' but Menchov is proving to be the biggest wheelsucker of them all - he has never once gone to the front of the race whilst in the leader's jersey. He makes Leipheimer and Evans look like the most super combative riders in the peloton :roll:

    Which is why hardly any Tifosi like him! I agree though, although it is not required of him to do it, a true champion attacks even he has the leader's jersey.

    I have to laugh. If i was winning a race and only had to cover my rivals to make sure i win it, why the feck would i waste energy attacking and possibly blow my chnace of the biggest win of my career!!!!! get real
    Robert Millar for knighthood
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    Blazing Saddles wrote:
    That 5kms would definitely have made a major difference to today's finishing times, as it had the steepest ramp somehwere on it.

    I think it wold have extended the lead of Pellizotti as he was looking strong, and by the looks of things maybe Di Luca could be in Pink given Menchov's slight crack...
    Contador is the Greatest
  • alanmcn1
    alanmcn1 Posts: 531
    frenchfighter wrote:
    Blazing Saddles wrote:
    That 5kms would definitely have made a major difference to today's finishing times, as it had the steepest ramp somehwere on it.

    I think it wold have extended the lead of Pellizotti as he was looking strong, and by the looks of things maybe Di Luca could be in Pink given Menchov's slight crack...

    Menchov "cracked" when Di Luca put in his far superior finishing sprint to the line. I doubt he could or would have done it and held it for an extended duration.

    PS. I likeMenchov about as much as DDL, but you gotta look at things in the right perspective
    Robert Millar for knighthood
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    edited May 2009
    alanmcn1 wrote:
    I have to laugh. If i was winning a race and only had to cover my rivals to make sure i win it, why the feck would i waste energy attacking and possibly blow my chnace of the biggest win of my career!!!!! get real

    Well you must be a fan of darts, snooker, golf, croquet, cricket and all the other countless boring sports out there.

    I agree that Menchov may have to ride like that and only like that if he is to win yet that means he is limited in his abilities.

    If I was a top rider I would like to have a legacy; to be called a GREAT. Menchov will not be called a great. Look at the 'greats' and see if they were classy riders or simply played defensive all the time.

    This is sport not business. The fans want excitement.
    alanmcn1 wrote:
    Menchov "cracked" when Di Luca put in his far superior finishing sprint to the line.

    Maybe you didn't see Menchov sprint away from Di Luca in the last stage? If he had not been on tipping point then he would have done it again or at least been right on his wheel. That much should be obvious.
    Contador is the Greatest
  • alanmcn1
    alanmcn1 Posts: 531
    frenchfighter wrote:
    alanmcn1 wrote:
    I have to laugh. If i was winning a race and only had to cover my rivals to make sure i win it, why the feck would i waste energy attacking and possibly blow my chnace of the biggest win of my career!!!!! get real

    Well you must be a fan of darts, snooker, golf, croquet, cricket and all the other countless boring sports out there.

    I agree that Menchov may have to ride like that and only like that if he is to win yet that means he is limited in his abilities.

    If I was a top rider I would like to have a legacy; to be called a GREAT. Menchov will not be called a great. Look at the 'greats' and see if they were classy riders or simply played defensive all the time.

    This is sport not business. The fans want excitement.

    No, am a fan of cycling have been since 1987, hence posting on a cycling forum.......kinda obvious that one. Winning a 3 week tour makes you a great.......compare how many cyclists have with how many have not. His sticking to DDL like glue did not make today any less compelling did it? Just as exciting watching to see if he can hold on???
    Robert Millar for knighthood
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    It is only natural that different aspects of a sport are going to interest different people.

    I like panache. I like attacking. I like Contador.

    I do not like boredom. I do not like defense. I do not like Menchov/Cadel/Leipheimer.
    Contador is the Greatest
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,711
    edited May 2009
    alanmcn1 wrote:
    Menchov "cracked" when Di Luca put in his far superior finishing sprint to the line. I doubt he could or would have done it and held it for an extended duration.

    PS. I likeMenchov about as much as DDL, but you gotta look at things in the right perspective

    He was fighting his bike, at the finish, today, as opposed to speeding past the "superior speedser" DDL, on stage 16.
    To me, he looked to be wavering a bit, between kms 2 and 3.
    The thing about Menchov is, one minute he looks in total control, the next, he's toast.
    Hence the term possible "slight crack".

    I thought that a fair persective.
    frenchfighter wrote:
    It is only natural that different aspects of a sport are going to interest different people.

    I like panache. I like attacking. I like Contador.

    I do not like boredom. I do not like defense. I do not like Menchov/Cadel/Leipheimer.
    +1 Menchov is the best of the trio, though. A bit more likeable than the other pair.

    Anyhow, I'd like to think there's going to be further GC action. Otherwise, this Giro will splutter out, having hardly been ignited.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • The Prodigy
    The Prodigy Posts: 832
    Quote from Frenchfighter

    "Not the knid of rider that pleases the Tifosi...not someone who has been racing and attacking all season long regardless of wins, entertaining the fans like Cadel for instance."

    Changed your mind then??
  • Quite Frankly
    Quite Frankly Posts: 386
    It's safe to say that the race will see an eruption on Stage 19 and someone's GC chances will go up in smoke.

    Sorry...
  • afx237vi
    afx237vi Posts: 12,630
    frenchfighter wrote:
    Well you must be a fan of darts, snooker, golf, croquet, cricket and all the other countless boring sports out there.

    Do you come out with this line every time someone offers a viewpoint that's different to yours? Because it doesn't really mean anything.
    I agree that Menchov may have to ride like that and only like that if he is to win yet that means he is limited in his abilities.

    If I was a top rider I would like to have a legacy; to be called a GREAT. Menchov will not be called a great. Look at the 'greats' and see if they were classy riders or simply played defensive all the time.

    Menchov is a great already. 3 grand tour victories and still only 31. To compare him to Leipheimer or Evans is crazy. Menchov attacks when he needs to and is a rock from thereon. Calculating, that's Denis.
    This is sport not business. The fans want excitement.

    Being a sport doesn't mean it's not a business. It's both. I'm sure the bosses at Rabobank would be reeeeaally pleased if Denis went nuts on Vesuvio and ended up losing the Giro because he wanted to please his fans.
  • Kléber
    Kléber Posts: 6,842
    Bike racing is theatre at times and fans often prefer the rider who attacks off the front, who gives it a fight. But this is actually quiet rare, you hope the lead group will have endless attacks but the reality is usually more straightforward.

    I think Menchov is more exciting than Leipheimer, he attacked in the Tour last summer and also tried to follow Sastre to Alpe d'Huez, no one else responded to his first attack.

    He might look calm but he's probably way into the red, so I respect Menchov's abilities and his tactical calm.

    I rode against him as an amateur in Spain, so I've been watching him for some time. It's hard not to think "Vienna" when I see him but put this aside and you have to respect him. Whether you warm to him is another matter, he's a very sleepy guy off the bike, a typical Russian stoic and his riding style is similar.
  • Quite Frankly
    Quite Frankly Posts: 386
    His Lordship's verdict on his own performance today:

    ''Stage 17 complete. Short, fast, and tough! Got a little antsy and went early after Pellizoti (who won) but didn't have the legs to catch him but I feel my condition is improving ok considering I drank beer for 4 years, crashed hard last month, and am an old dog. Onward.''


    Antsy? I'm guessing that's similar to getting a little bit ''giddy''.
  • The Prodigy
    The Prodigy Posts: 832
    If you want attacking off the front in the pursuit of glory, thats the beauty of the classics is it not?

    Thats not to say you can't win GT's that way, you just need to be abit more measured. Menchov made his attack, it was in the TT unfortunately so it didn't have the same fireworks as a Pantani-esque attack.

    On the subject of Greats, surely Indurain was and yet I don't remember him dancing up too many hills
  • afx237vi
    afx237vi Posts: 12,630
    Antsy = fidgety.

    “We really have everything in common with America nowadays except, of course, language” Oscar Wilde (naturally).
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    I do not dislike Menchov, more that I like other riders better.

    As for greats, they are called such as they are greater than the competitors they race(d) with.

    So let me demonstrate one great using purely the three grand tours (to include everything would be too onerous despite reinforcing my point).

    Contador.

    In 2007 he won the Tour de France. He won the white jersey too.
    In 2008 he won the Giro. He won the white jersey too. He also won the Vuelta.
    He is only 26 and has 10 years or so left in him.

    That is a great.

    Menchov has not won the Giro (yet). He has not won the Tour. He has won two Vueltas. He won the young jersey in the Tour in 2003.

    That is not a great as Contador is greater.

    Now look at the palmares of Di Luca beside that of Menchov's. One is barren in comparison. Guess which?
    Contador is the Greatest
  • redddraggon
    redddraggon Posts: 10,862
    edited May 2009
    oops
    I like bikes...

    Twitter
    Flickr
  • redddraggon
    redddraggon Posts: 10,862
    redddraggon wrote:
    frenchfighter wrote:
    In 2008 he won the Giro. He won the white jersey too.

    Nah, he didn't, Ricco did.
    I like bikes...

    Twitter
    Flickr
  • afx237vi
    afx237vi Posts: 12,630
    redddraggon wrote:
    redddraggon wrote:
    frenchfighter wrote:
    In 2008 he won the Giro. He won the white jersey too.

    Nah, he didn't, Ricco did.

    Actually Danilo Di Luca did. He was still only just hitting puberty by then.

    FF, each era is allowed to have more than one great.
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    Well if you insist, I shall refer to Contador as the greatest great of his era (ie/. post Lance era).

    Greats can co-exist yes. Cavendish is a great yet he isn't a GC great he is a Sprinting great. When it comes to GC, Menchov was never a great.

    In the history of cycling, only 5 riders have won all three grand tours. Contador is one of them. The last one was Hinault, more than 30 years ago.

    Only 9 riders have won two grand tours in the same year. Contador is one of them. The last was Pantani in 1998.

    Contador was also the first non-Italian rider to win the Giro in 12 years.

    That is greatness and he has only just started.
    Contador is the Greatest
  • alanmcn1
    alanmcn1 Posts: 531
    frenchfighter wrote:
    Well if you insist, I shall refer to Contador as the greatest great of his era (ie/. post Lance era).

    Greats can co-exist yes. Cavendish is a great yet he isn't a GC great he is a Sprinting great. When it comes to GC, Menchov was never a great.

    In the history of cycling, only 5 riders have won all three grand tours. Contador is one of them. The last one was Hinault, more than 30 years ago.

    Only 9 riders have won two grand tours in the same year. Contador is one of them. The last was Pantani in 1998.

    Contador was also the first non-Italian rider to win the Giro in 12 years.

    That is greatness and he has only just started.

    Thanks for joining in Mrs Contador

    Alberto is potentially a great, but he hsan't done what big Mig or Anquetil have...............oh wait they were wheel suckers who won all their tours in time trials................
    Robert Millar for knighthood
  • afx237vi
    afx237vi Posts: 12,630
    alanmcn1 wrote:
    Alberto is potentially a great, but he hsan't done what big Mig or Anquetil have...............oh wait they were wheel suckers who won all their tours in time trials................

    Which btw was exactly how Berto won the Giro last year 8) :shock:

    *runs*
  • donrhummy
    donrhummy Posts: 2,329
    Lance is visibly improving. Enough that he's actually looking like a real threat for podium at the TDF. Watching him at the beginning of this Giro, I never would have thought that possible.

    This has been an AMAZING giro but I am sad that Levi just didn't have it. I still think he's hurt by his fear of taking risks. I think if he were willing to lose it all, he'd still be on the podium right now. Oh, well.
  • sing_for_absolution
    sing_for_absolution Posts: 1,908
    donrhummy wrote:
    Lance is visibly improving. Enough that he's actually looking like a real threat for podium at the TDF. Watching him at the beginning of this Giro, I never would have thought that possible.

    Woah, get a room!

    And to whoever it is whinging about Menchov and his unclassy ways, what on earth do you want? A motorbike like Ullrich or Pantani??? (deliberately cited)
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    The Prodigy wrote:
    If you want attacking off the front in the pursuit of glory, thats the beauty of the classics is it not?

    Thats not to say you can't win GT's that way, you just need to be abit more measured. Menchov made his attack, it was in the TT unfortunately so it didn't have the same fireworks as a Pantani-esque attack.

    On the subject of Greats, surely Indurain was and yet I don't remember him dancing up too many hills

    I agree winning GTs (not that i have ever won one mind you)is not about blasting off the front all the time to please the punters although thats great to see when it happens , its about calculating your effort and making your moves at the right time to have maximum effect and if you gotta wheelsuck then you gotta wheelsuck its part of the game if you will.
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • Kléber
    Kléber Posts: 6,842
    Fans always want the theatre precisely because it's high risk stuff, nine times out of ten the solo attack miles from the finish does not work. It's classy when it works but looks stupid when it fails.
  • phreak
    phreak Posts: 2,941
    Sure is exciting to watch though. I first got into cycling watching in awe at Pantani fly up the Galibier to Les Deux Alpes in '98. Forget who said it but someone remarked of Pantani that he got more people into cycling than any other rider and it wouldn't surprise me because he was so exciting.
  • The Prodigy
    The Prodigy Posts: 832
    phreak wrote:
    Sure is exciting to watch though. I first got into cycling watching in awe at Pantani fly up the Galibier to Les Deux Alpes in '98. Forget who said it but someone remarked of Pantani that he got more people into cycling than any other rider and it wouldn't surprise me because he was so exciting.

    Pantani was poetry in motion, unfortunately he was so good you get idiots like Ricco paying homage with similar methods
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    donrhummy wrote:
    This has been an AMAZING giro but I am sad that Levi just didn't have it. I still think he's hurt by his fear of taking risks. I think if he were willing to lose it all, he'd still be on the podium right now. Oh, well.

    I'm now convinced you're completely mad Don.

    It's been a tepid Giro. If it wasn't got Basso on Sunday and Sastre on Monday it would've been tedium on wheels.

    Levi's podium finishes have been riding in support of someone else in GT's. He's not cut out for leading a team during a grand tour. He's a great week long stage race rider though.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.

Categories