Giro Stage 10 *Spoiler*

frenchfighter

On the speed, according to Leipheimer the first three hours were at 48 km/h which he said was particularly fast.

Not sure why Di Luca is surprising people - he is only 33 and has a ridiculously good and consistent palmares as well as always being an exciting attacking rider. Just admire his talent, why do you guys always have to tarnish riders.

Kléber

That's like saying I should admire a crack dealer's wealth. It's earned by dishonourable and criminal means, so I'd tend to regard it with contempt.

In the past, Di Luca's been exposed as a cheat and a liar. So I'm struggling to believe him now. Perhaps he's doing this Giro on aqua e panne but sadly his past behaviour means he struggles to gain credibility amongst many, from humble fans to ASO, who still refuse to let his team into their races.

How do I know if Di Luca is this talented? Or has he got a talented doctor alongside?

stagehopper

frenchfighter wrote:

Just admire his talent, why do you guys always have to tarnish riders.

To be fair it's mostly riders who have tarnished themselves, be it by getting caught doping, getting caught up in doping scandals, or hiring/working with medics and trainers associated with doping. DiLuca belongs in this category.

That being said, I still don't think DiLuca did anything exceptional yesterday. The finish was suited to him with the tricky descent and then the short punchy climb just before the finish. Most of the time gained was on the tricky descent which he attacked whereas the likes of Leipheimer looked like he needed stabilisers to get around the corners.

frenchfighter

Your views are all entirely valid, it is simply that I care to discuss the stage and unfortunately that inevitably comes down to doping.

At the end of the day, hypothetically, if every rider was on the same amount of drugs as eachother then there will still be ones which are superior and can distance others and excite the fans. All the big greats who have been caught doping, do you think they would have faded into obscurity if they hadn't? Maybe they wouldn't put in killer performances every day but I am pretty sure they would be shining out none-the-less.

Di Luca didn't exactly put 2mins into them did he. He was also very familiar with the descent as was Pellizotti. If you want to have at someone then go for LA - how is it possible he can drop so much time in the first week then only drop 29 secs on a 262km stage? No one mentions Menchov either - I have no reason to think he is a doper but he always finishes right behind Di Luca.

iainf72

frenchfighter wrote:

I have no reason to think he is a doper but he always finishes right behind Di Luca.

http://www.foxsports.com.au/story/0,865 ... 18,00.html

Since then, as part of the ongoing investigations in Austria athletes have confirmed they did recieve transfusions there.

frenchfighter

No concrete proof of doping so I'm not bothered. I don't follow gossip (especially from Fox), however tenable, as it would be distracting. However, no one mentionned him in this thread and decided to have at Di Luca.

iainf72

Fox was just the first link that came up I did hesistate before using it.

calvjones

I know Sestriere might not be the top bolox, but since when is it equitable to a Classics parcours?

The only time di Luca has shown climbing ability to match the best in the high cols, he was spurred on by the Godly power of his pre-pubescent wee. Otherwise, he suffers like a dog to hang on.

Its the fact he hung with everyone for 6 hrs then had such a WTF kick that I take as an indication that the habits of the last decade or so are hard to lose. And he rides like a gnome.

frenchfighter

You've heard it before but the Maglia Rosa makes you ride like two men. Add to that Di Luca's supposed great motivation to get as much time as possible before the TTs. Then consider his numerous summit wins. Additionally, I thought doping was very useful in TTs (Rasmussen), yet Di Luca has always performed badly in them. If he was doped to the nines I would expect top ten placings as a minimum every time. Never had a positive unlike fat boy Lance (although likely that the doping conisseurs will correct me...).

As for the Sestriere, they climbed a lot of it, if not all of it in the 53.

frenchfighter

Oh and for anyone who was doubting his ability in the Classics, this link will soon sort that out. Also note that he won the KOM in the Tour of Britain

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danilo_Di_Luca

redddraggon

frenchfighter wrote:

Also note that he won the KOM in the Tour of Britain

Aye he did

teagar

DaveyL wrote:

teagar wrote:

Facile and boring doping chat aside, I did think Armstrong's ride was rather ominous. If he can finish like that already. I was hoping his age would stop him really gaining form through heavy riding.

He dropped Cunego..!

*Imperial march rumbles in background*

Similarly both Menchov and Sastre surprised me. Since when could they descend a lot better than Leipheimer!

Was expecting more from Basso today. Looks like he was slightly afraid of the distance and the final kick. I was hoping for him to really string them out on the big climb of the day.

Facile? Not as facile as sweeping it all under the carpet, I suppose.

Well it seems pretty difficult for everyone here to discuss a race without reference to doping! Why not try it some day Davey?

To be honest, I don't really care if they all take drugs, as long as I and everyone else perceieves that there is no doping going on and that it is perceieved to be difficult to dope i don't really care.

But the way this is going, as soon as anyone wins by more than a hair breadth you all go doping accusation mad.

It takes all the fun out of it. I don't care whether they are actually, but the conviction that ayone who rides beyond what we expect is definitely on drugs completely ruins the illusion and ruins my enjoyment of both the race and trying to discuss it!

Who cares if he was on drugs doing it anyway? What happened on the road is what's interesting, no what is flowing through his veins.

Even if, god forbid, it would actually be a clean peleton one day, it wouldn't make much of a difference, since you all seem to perceive the peleton to be totally juiced up constantly.

As long as they keep passing the tests and there arn't any ludicrously abnormal racing results, (which I don't think Di Luca's is...), then I'm happy.

Am I now going to be arrested by cycling's moral police?

frenchfighter

Ah well put teagar, my sentiments precisely.

blazing_saddles

The situation with the bio passports is that Danilo Di Luca is now,
Danilo Di Luted, just like everyone else.

Rode a really canny stage yesterday. Whole peloton tranquilo, until the 15km mark. 140+ riders over the top of Sestrieres, together and down to the foot of the final climb.
Then, he only hit the accelerator twice, in two short bursts and handled his bike better than the rest.
What's so unbelievable about that?

Fact is, like I said, the Queen stage was just long, but the "major" climbs neither hard enough, or postitoned where they could make a difference.

Have to give the guy credit for lighting a match under the diesel's butt

stagehopper

calvjones wrote:

I know Sestriere might not be the top bolox, but since when is it equitable to a Classics parcours?

Three quarters of the peleton were together at the top of Sestriere so it was hardly an eyeballs out ascent.

micron

It wasn't about the climb though, was it? It was all about the descent and Leipheimer, despite whatever Harmon might say, on the evidence of anybody's eyes is not a great descender. Nor is Basso. Just the sort of stage profile for a great descender like Di Luca to take the race by the scruff of the neck.

frenchfighter

And to all you people who think Di Luca didn't look tired maybe a trip to the optician is in order. He was clearly grimacing and had his mouth wide open which is more than can be said of most riders such as Menchov who rarely breaks a sweat.

Kléber

teagar wrote:

To be honest, I don't really care if they all take drugs, as long as I and everyone else perceieves that there is no doping going on and that it is perceieved to be difficult to dope i don't really care.

But the way this is going, as soon as anyone wins by more than a hair breadth you all go doping accusation mad.

It takes all the fun out of it. I don't care whether they are actually, but the conviction that ayone who rides beyond what we expect is definitely on drugs completely ruins the illusion and ruins my enjoyment of both the race and trying to discuss it!

Who cares if he was on drugs doing it anyway? What happened on the road is what's interesting, no what is flowing through his veins.

Even if, god forbid, it would actually be a clean peloton one day, it wouldn't make much of a difference, since you all seem to perceive the peloton to be totally juiced up constantly.

As long as they keep passing the tests and there arn't any ludicrously abnormal racing results, (which I don't think Di Luca's is...), then I'm happy.

Am I now going to be arrested by cycling's moral police?

I don't know who is saying "the peloton to be totally juiced up constantly". For me, some riders are still doping but this does not mean all the riders. It's important to distinguish between riders and even team making good efforts to improve the sport.

I know what you mean about just wanting to enjoy the sport, even journalists on L'Equipe want the same thing but ever time you think "things look better", along comes some prat like Rebellin, Vavlverde or Di Luca. So please don't be some armchair fan who doesn't want to know about doping. It's a bit like putting your head in the sand or sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting "lalalalala". Maybe you don't want to here about but but sadly it's still real. It matters.

Wh? Because it's a criminal matter in some countries and above all, the anti-doping rules are there for the riders and their health, sporting considerations about a fair race come second. If you care for the riders and the sport, you want to know about doping. These guys already take big risks just to ride fast, there's no need to take dangerous products.

We're at a point now where the sport realises it has to clean up but there are significant opportunities for riders to cheat, fans need to be vigilant.

DaveyL

Wot Kleber said.

+ I'm not saying anything about Di Luca's performance yesterday being questionable, just that he has, in general, no credibility as far as I am concerned.

teagar

Kléber wrote:

teagar wrote:

To be honest, I don't really care if they all take drugs, as long as I and everyone else perceieves that there is no doping going on and that it is perceieved to be difficult to dope i don't really care.

But the way this is going, as soon as anyone wins by more than a hair breadth you all go doping accusation mad.

It takes all the fun out of it. I don't care whether they are actually, but the conviction that ayone who rides beyond what we expect is definitely on drugs completely ruins the illusion and ruins my enjoyment of both the race and trying to discuss it!

Who cares if he was on drugs doing it anyway? What happened on the road is what's interesting, no what is flowing through his veins.

Even if, god forbid, it would actually be a clean peloton one day, it wouldn't make much of a difference, since you all seem to perceive the peloton to be totally juiced up constantly.

As long as they keep passing the tests and there arn't any ludicrously abnormal racing results, (which I don't think Di Luca's is...), then I'm happy.

Am I now going to be arrested by cycling's moral police?

I don't know who is saying "the peloton to be totally juiced up constantly". For me, some riders are still doping but this does not mean all the riders. It's important to distinguish between riders and even team making good efforts to improve the sport.

I know what you mean about just wanting to enjoy the sport, even journalists on L'Equipe want the same thing but ever time you think "things look better", along comes some prat like Rebellin, Vavlverde or Di Luca. So please don't be some armchair fan who doesn't want to know about doping. It's a bit like putting your head in the sand or sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting "lalalalala". Maybe you don't want to here about but but sadly it's still real. It matters.

Wh? Because it's a criminal matter in some countries and above all, the anti-doping rules are there for the riders and their health, sporting considerations about a fair race come second. If you care for the riders and the sport, you want to know about doping. These guys already take big risks just to ride fast, there's no need to take dangerous products.

We're at a point now where the sport realises it has to clean up but there are significant opportunities for riders to cheat, fans need to be vigilant.

Look, we're all armchair fan's here so don't get too high and mighty! You've seen plenty of my posts before, it's not like I deny everything doping related and stick my head in the sand.


What irritates me is I look back at when I first got into cycling in the '90s, and, well, I enjoyed it so much more! In the back of my mind there was always the thought "maybe..", but it never got to the stage where every time something unusual happens I start stroking my chin thinking they're on the juice.

What I am beginning to get very sick of is the obsession, and not just on the forums, with the doping.

This thread is a classic example. It's about the stage, and what happened on the road, right? Or at least, that was the intent. But now, because there's been an unusual performance from a guy who once had shady pasts it's now all about what is flowing through his veins and who he knows. That's not why I like cycling! I like it because I like what happens on the road.

As for the whole criminal doping malarky - to be honest, it's a bit of a moot point. It only became criminal when sportsmen began to earn serious money and doping became a hot topic. It's as much as a deterrant as anything else. Anyway, since we are all armchair fans, what can we do about it? Bring it up in every discussion of a road race? That will really change the sport. :?

I don't bury my head in the sand, but I do sometimes wish I could. I'd enjoy it so much more. And that's what sport is about for fans anyway. Not about some moral crusade to sort out all criminal activity within it!

The cyclists who dope know that's it's despised by the fans. They know that. That's why they go to such great means to avoid the dope tests. What the average armchair fan thinks means fuck all to them. Constantly bringing it up isn't gonig to change it? Leave that to those in charge! But more words are written on the pro-race section of this forum on the drugs than on the racing, which I think is a big shame.

Even the threads that are about the racing end up about the drugs, like this one.

frenchfighter

teagar wrote:

That's not why I like cycling! I like it because I like what happens on the road.

But more words are written on the pro-race section of this forum on the drugs than on the racing, which I think is a big shame.

Even the threads that are about the racing end up about the drugs, like this one.

My sentiments exactly. In fact it was the first thing I noticed when coming onto this forum, and when I mentionned it I was quickly rebuked.

Kléber

I agree, Di Luca's move was exciting to watch too. It's just that he shouldn't be in the race, CONI wanted him banned for two years after all. Excluding a doper doesn't mean the race gets boring, it just means you potentially give a more honest rider the chance to compete.

Cunego for example is an exciting rider but he's making big noises in several interviews as to what is going on.

Remember, a clean tour would be a very exciting one, with riders forced to respect the natual limits of their talent.

Tom Butcher

Yes maybe he shouldn't be in the race - but he is and he is the most exciting rider amongst the half dozen or so who have some kind of chance on the GC.

His rides this year have not been exceptional in comparison to his previous record whatever some may say - now of course his previous record may be what it is because he was on the juice - but then so were most of the people he was racing against.

Before this Giro everyone was bemoaning the lack of serious mountain top finishes - so maybe the parcours just suits him this time round. On the Eurosport coverage they showed Bruyneel in the Astana team coach before the so called queen stage and he even briefed his team that DiLuca might take some time at the end because the finish suited him - it's not as if it was an unexpected win like Heras when he won that time trial in the Vuelta a few years back.