Etape Caledonia sabotaged
Comments
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JWallace wrote:doyler78 wrote:JWallace wrote:I was the person who posted full name and address of the person arrested on this fourm and Cyclechat (for which they have banned me for a month)the reason i posted the full name and address,is because its in the public doman anyway (Dundee Phone Book) and has been partly published in most scottish newspapers
the reason i did so was for people who suffered damage or injury to persue a small claims action,if and when this person is convicted
I thought i would bring more clarity to my original (now removed post)
Jim Wallace
But you also published his telephone number in your post. Why did you do that?
err.... because its in the phone book! people from outwith Tayside may not have access to the local phone book,so the info was there i just copied it all
Jim
Jim0 -
JWallace wrote:doyler78 wrote:JWallace wrote:I was the person who posted full name and address of the person arrested on this fourm and Cyclechat (for which they have banned me for a month)the reason i posted the full name and address,is because its in the public doman anyway (Dundee Phone Book) and has been partly published in most scottish newspapers
the reason i did so was for people who suffered damage or injury to persue a small claims action,if and when this person is convicted
I thought i would bring more clarity to my original (now removed post)
Jim Wallace
But you also published his telephone number in your post. Why did you do that?
err.... because its in the phone book!
Jim
I asked why you published it - not where you got it from.0 -
Seeing as Grossett is a solicitor, perhaps JWallace was trying to drum up some business for him from all the (potentially) litigious Etapists0
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I thought it was a good idea to post the phonenumber as others like myself may also have been rather cheesed off at a 1 hour 20 miunite delay at the bottom fo Schallion with a slight chill coming on after a brisk 40 odd miles,
Other cyclists may have felt the need to express their views directly which I tried to do but there was no answer.
As the post has been removed and a clearer head now on I see the small claims action the better long term action to prevent further disruption to future events
Jim0 -
JWallace wrote:I thought it was a good idea to post the phonenumber as others like myself may also have been rather cheesed off at a 1 hour 20 miunite delay at the bottom fo Schallion with a slight chill coming on after a brisk 40 odd miles,
Other cyclists may have felt the need to express their views directly which I tried to do but there was no answer.
As the post has been removed and a clearer head now on I see the small claims action the better long term action to prevent further disruption to future events
Jim
So I was right to report your post as its purspose was purely to aid harrassment. Do you think by descending to this guys level that you can then claim the moral high ground. Furthermore often the victims of this type of harrassment are not just the person who committed the crime but their families who probably bare no responsibility whatsoever.0 -
Its up to the individuals if they wish to phone the chap up or not.the information was in the public domain.rather than a premedatated attack stockpiling tacks over a period of time.clearly there is a wide diffrence here.but a lesson learned for myself and I have moved on from my original post.
I see no support for a small claims action from yourself maybe you are for the accused how am I to know?
I know myself a madone 5.2 to get a checkup after coming off two michelin pro3 tyres holed and 2 inner tubes to replace I would like to know why the guy took such action
Jim0 -
doyler78 wrote:
Parades Commission - Northern Ireland. I think we know a lot more about conflict than you do over there. Nice in theory. Doesn't work in practice. The police still bear the brunt of abuse from those that are on the losing side. The only thing that has worked was when both parties sat down and talked extensively about the issues. That is the only solution. Dictacs don't work whether democractically arrived at or not.
Carpet tacks were quite an effective intervention though.
I wasn't proposing a dictat, I was suggesting an exercise in local democracy to the extent even of vote casting. I don't understand the relevance of the parades commission reference.
You've contributed thousands of words to this topic. What's your proposal to resolve matters fairly to all concerned - drawing on your experience of conflict or otherwise (and not involving a parades commission explanation. (Please
) Where the neon madmen climb0 -
nwallace; If a small local tourist business cannot cash in on the event then they are doing something wrong and they won't be about for long. I own and run three local businesses all growing thanks to a pro active approach in getting their name about the place. I have also had to sell a business in the past as it was on shaky ground and know how stressful that can be, but 3500 people, their entourage and all those involved in the races organization is a massive market needing to be serviced.
doyler78; I don't tell anyone whether to be upset or not, I'm just making an observation of how blown out of all proportion the protesters arguments and actions are. I am in full agreement with you with regards posting people's names, addresses, phone numbers etc. It's bloody easy to post stuff in the heat of the moment that on reflection you regret, it's harder to see the red mist, drive to a B&Q buy tacks, wait for first thing sunday morning then lay a booby trap for 3500 people enjoying the countryside (an entitlement to all of us, not just those of us lucky enough to live there).
Anyway, I was stuck behind the sheep for 30 minutes, did I get pissed off? No, I just put on Willie Nelson and laughed at life in Perthshire.
It's 3 hours on a Sunday in the middle of the month!0 -
That's laughed at how great it is, not at it, don't want to offend!0
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Having taken part in the Etape last weekend I thoroughly enjoyed the concept of cycling fast on closed roads and whilst there is a local argument that the roads do not need to be closed, my view is that this particular event would have only attract 10% of the current numbers if the roads around Pitlochry were open.
My concern now that we have the Rannoch and Tummel community clearly divided and blighted by emotional issues relating to the carpet tack incident and I am concerned that it is going to be particularly challenging year for them without us antagonising them any further.
I wish to enter this event next year, however I feel that it would be much better if this event was moved to another location where there is absolutely no doubt that we are clearly going to be welcomed. :arrow:0 -
pedylan wrote:doyler78 wrote:
Parades Commission - Northern Ireland. I think we know a lot more about conflict than you do over there. Nice in theory. Doesn't work in practice. The police still bear the brunt of abuse from those that are on the losing side. The only thing that has worked was when both parties sat down and talked extensively about the issues. That is the only solution. Dictacs don't work whether democractically arrived at or not.
Carpet tacks were quite an effective intervention though.
I wasn't proposing a dictat, I was suggesting an exercise in local democracy to the extent even of vote casting. I don't understand the relevance of the parades commission reference.
You've contributed thousands of words to this topic. What's your proposal to resolve matters fairly to all concerned - drawing on your experience of conflict or otherwise (and not involving a parades commission explanation. (Please )
What Northern Ireland teaches us is that democracy doesn't reduce conflict so having local representations and a vote will not solve the issues at all. It can only ever serve to confirm what the majority opinion is and whether knowing that is useful or not is another matter. I suspect that ACRE are very well aware that they are in the minority in their area so I think that point is proved. So with respect the issue isn't about proving who carries the majority with them it's about how you reconcile the two sides.
Dialogue is the only way to move forward and if any party is not interested in dialogue then you have just step back and try again until such times both parties are ready to sit down trash it out with no preconditions on the table.
I don't propose to be able to resolve this conflict however I don't see the point in getting wound up about it. People have linked ACRE with the attack and whether that is or is not the case is not proved however it seems for many they have decided that is fact. If you enter into a dialogue with such trenchent views about them then you haven't a hope of really opening up to or understanding their views and they yours.
So what that the Etape tried to make concessions and they were rejected. That's part of diplomacy and drinkmanship. Accept that you can't win the argument on this ocassion and redouble your efforts to carry them before next year. It's really not that difficult and concept really
What doesn't help is where you vilify people for their beliefs, so long as they are not dangerous to themselves or society at large, and with respect protesting against road closures endangers no one. What others do of the back of that is the responsibility of those individual(s). By vilifying them you make them less receptive to change and whose interests is that in.0 -
Regarding publishing of personal details. it's about context.
When a newspaper publishes these details, they're a more-or-less impartial body and they're just presenting information.
In a forum thread full of pissed-off cyclists, the ONLY interpretation of such a posting is as an incitement to harassment.
I don't happen to know if that's definitely illegal. The only way to find out would be to go to court, and frankly it's not worth it.
However, I pulled the personal details that had been published because I think it's extremely bad form. These people are accused of committing or have expressed support for a serious act of sabotage. They are clearly a bit bonkers. The way to retaliate is via the courts, as other posters have mentioned, and to let the police do their job.
Vigilantism is just sinking to their level. Call me a soppy old idealist, but I like to think that as cyclists, we're better than that.John Stevenson0 -
Stedman wrote:I wish to enter this event next year, however I feel that it would be much better if this event was moved to another location where there is absolutely no doubt that we are clearly going to be welcomed.
And how would you ensure that? Carry out a poll, and only go on if there's 100% support? Pretty unlikely I'd say. The overwhelming majority of those impacted by the current route are in favour. Don't let the antics of a handful blind you to that.0 -
Doyler78 I'm sorry but this isn't the Israeli/Palestinian conflict we are talking about here. How many meetings do you think it is going to take to decide whether some small backroads in the middle of a rural area should be closed for 3 hours on a Sunday morning. The fact is that if one side are refusing to back down on the principle that roads could be closed irrespective of the practical effect it has on their lives, then frankly there isn't a great deal of point in having a summit meeting sponsored by the UN. All you can do is listen to their grievances, try to mitigate their problems by compromising and if that isn't enough for them then say sorry. It's a democracy and we have gone through the appropriate processes: The majority view prevails because you are not willing to make reasonable compromises and you are exaggerating and fabricating the difficulties this event is causing both the community as a whole and you as individuals. You can negotiate with people who are willing to negotiate, if people aren't, eventually you are just wasting your time.0
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ellieb wrote:Doyler78 I'm sorry but this isn't the Israeli/Palestinian conflict we are talking about here. How many meetings do you think it is going to take to decide whether some small backroads in the middle of a rural area should be closed for 3 hours on a Sunday morning. The fact is that if one side are refusing to back down on the principle that roads could be closed irrespective of the practical effect it has on their lives, then frankly there isn't a great deal of point in having a summit meeting sponsored by the UN. All you can do is listen to their grievances, try to mitigate their problems by compromising and if that isn't enough for them then say sorry. It's a democracy and we have gone through the appropriate processes: The majority view prevails because you are not willing to make reasonable compromises and you are exaggerating and fabricating the difficulties this event is causing both the community as a whole and you as individuals. You can negotiate with people who are willing to negotiate, if people aren't, eventually you are just wasting your time.
What did I say - if they won't listen move on and try and get agreement from them next year. That's actually pretty simple. It those that try to pull every sentence of their comments online apart an vilify the people involved in campaign apart which I have stated helps no one. I use grand examples because they are the best example of why something doesn't work. If it doesn't work on a grand scale then it doesn't work on a local scale either.
The majority view did prevail and look what happened. I think the wish of everyone is that this doesn't happen again and therefore to do that you have to do something different than was done before or you just end up with the same piosionous atmosphere that lead to these actions this year.0 -
Or you try to get the people at ACRE who are creating this poisonous atmosphere to realize how ludicrous most of these arguments are. Maybe I'm naive but what most peopple on this forum are doing is pointing out the facts and trying to engender some sense of reality into the situation. You cannot negotiate on the basis of fantasy. I agree entirely that threatening or personally abusing individuals is counter-productive. But that is what results from the action by the individual(s) who put the tacks on the road. In terms of the escalation of the problem, they are the ones responsible. I actually agree with the thoery of some of what you say, but in practical terms there has to come a point when you decide that you can only conciliate with people who are willing to see sense.0
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John Stevenson wrote:Regarding publishing of personal details. it's about context.
When a newspaper publishes these details, they're a more-or-less impartial body and they're just presenting information.
In a forum thread full of pissed-off cyclists, the ONLY interpretation of such a posting is as an incitement to harassment.
I don't happen to know if that's definitely illegal. The only way to find out would be to go to court, and frankly it's not worth it.
However, I pulled the personal details that had been published because I think it's extremely bad form. These people are accused of committing or have expressed support for a serious act of sabotage. They are clearly a bit bonkers. The way to retaliate is via the courts, as other posters have mentioned, and to let the police do their job.
Vigilantism is just sinking to their level. Call me a soppy old idealist, but I like to think that as cyclists, we're better than that.
I have already posted a reply to my actions at 12.15pm on the fourm; there is no need to keep kicking someone when they are down, and I have already corrected the fact that the small claims court is the way to go, are you willing to coordinate this action,positive action is indeed the way to go,whos willing to step up to the front,rather than grumble in the background,clearly i made a mistake so that rules me out as leader of any action(its called being human,and pissed off)
so whos taking charge??
JW0 -
I've got a pitchfork....0
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ellieb wrote:Or you try to get the people at ACRE who are creating this poisonous atmosphere to realize how ludicrous most of these arguments are. Maybe I'm naive but what most peopple on this forum are doing is pointing out the facts and trying to engender some sense of reality into the situation. You cannot negotiate on the basis of fantasy. I agree entirely that threatening or personally abusing individuals is counter-productive. But that is what results from the action by the individual(s) who put the tacks on the road. In terms of the escalation of the problem, they are the ones responsible. I actually agree with the thoery of some of what you say, but in practical terms there has to come a point when you decide that you can only conciliate with people who are willing to see sense.
Some of what they say may well be bourne out of ignornance but the derogatory and sneering way in which many of the posts on here have been in respect of those views means that they will not have that effect and I do appreciate that when something like this happens that the response is reactionary. I was simply trying to say that it isn't helpful however it seems the atmosphere is just too poisoned for most people to respond to that positively.0 -
Rabcp wrote:This was the thing I noticed, No protestors - compared to last year when there were a lot dotted all along the course.
it would suggest the protest group knew what was going to happen. Should be fairly easy for the police to identify the people involved.
As for the vast majority of the locals, they were fabulous, hundreds of them out cheering (shame a small minority arre not so welcoming)
Personally, I was going very well , sitting near the front of the 1st group just before the Schiehallion climb, then bang...punctured, I think I was the first to stop (a dubious honour if ever there was one)
6 tacks - 2 front, 4 in the back
Got them changed, lost a lot of time (thanks go to the guy who lent me his pump)
Truly staggering scene as I got going again, roads lined with hundreds of cyclists fixing punctures, asking for spare tubes, walking with their bikes etc
Managed to get round with no more punctures, did the full route before they closed it off.
I think it was me who lent you the pump...and I have to say that at the end of a day that was full dissapointment to find that you'd dropped it off in the shop as you said you would restored my faith in cyclists if not all my fellow men. Cheers buddy
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Just picked up an email from CTC.
It appears I am not the only CTC member who is considering a small(ish) claim as compensation for my losses - I have been advised to ring the CTC legal line on Monday.
I will post updates - but in the meantime hang on to your receipts/pictures/wrecked inner tubes etc - all valuable evidence.
Forget the hothead stuff - lets resolve this in the courts via due process.0 -
Stedman wrote:I wish to enter this event next year, however I feel that it would be much better if this event was moved to another location where there is absolutely no doubt that we are clearly going to be welcomed. :arrow:
Er...... Italy? 0 -
I was at Etape this year (wasn't riding) and really enjoyed the atmosphere until I heard about this sad turn of events. However, these wreckless people have not discouraged me. I've already signed up for next year!
I do agree with a lot of people with regard to letting the Police and Courts do their jobs. The best way to show your anger at this sorry state of affairs is to ride it next year. Lets make a statement by making the event even bigger and better. ( Please remember the money goes to charity!!)0 -
Good advice. But I wonder what are people going to do when - as I feel is very likely, especially given that he is a 'pillar of the local community' - the perpetrator gets a conditional discharge or a minor slap on the wrist.AlunP wrote:Forget the hothead stuff - lets resolve this in the courts via due process.0 -
aurelio wrote:
Good advice. But I wonder what are people going to do when - as I feel is very likely, especially given that he is a 'pillar of the local community' - the perpetrator gets a conditional discharge or a minor slap on the wrist.AlunP wrote:Forget the hothead stuff - lets resolve this in the courts via due process.
Well there is no such thing as a conditional discharge in Scottish courts so that won't happen! If you are going to post some speculation at least make it speculation based on something that is possible.
The matter is on petition which means is it being treated seriously. This means it is being held under solemn procedure (Sheriff and Jury or High court).
If you would like a full range of possible disposals in a Scottish court feel free to ask 0 -
AlunP wrote:Just picked up an email from CTC.
It appears I am not the only CTC member who is considering a small(ish) claim as compensation for my losses - I have been advised to ring the CTC legal line on Monday.
I will post updates - but in the meantime hang on to your receipts/pictures/wrecked inner tubes etc - all valuable evidence.
Forget the hothead stuff - lets resolve this in the courts via due process.
This is probably the most sensible route to follow. And a legal one!0 -
OK, I'm asking.Noodley wrote:
Well there is no such thing as a conditional discharge in Scottish courts so that won't happen! If you are going to post some speculation at least make it speculation based on something that is possible...If you would like a full range of possible disposals in a Scottish court feel free to askaurelio wrote:
Good advice. But I wonder what are people going to do when - as I feel is very likely, especially given that he is a 'pillar of the local community' - the perpetrator gets a conditional discharge or a minor slap on the wrist.AlunP wrote:Forget the hothead stuff - lets resolve this in the courts via due process.
Whatever terminology is used up in Scotland, are you telling me that under Scot's law there is no chance of him receiving no significant penalty other than having to agree not to do it again?
Does not Scot's law allow for small fines, suspended prison sentences and so on? (A.K.A. 'slaps on the wrist')?
By the way, when I said that I wondered what people might do, I was not thinking of how they might be taking action into their own hands. Rather I was thinking of the all the 'wailing and gnashing of teeth' that is likely to ensue!0 -
Next years event (2010) has been renamed the Etack Caledonia
JW0
