Etape Caledonia sabotaged

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  • Coyote
    Coyote Posts: 212
    Had a read through the rock climbers forum and what a jolly good read it is too! Correction - was, it's been pulled.

    Just a wee thought regarding the talk of 4 hours "imprisonment" that appears to be intollerable for some....what do they do when it snows?...it is highland Perthshire after all... I guess they complain to those responsible...that will be God then, won't it?. Oh, hang on a mo....but they can't do that either can they... because they can't get to church - and don't they have to get to church to talk to God? - because the roads will be blocked! :lol:
  • nwallace
    nwallace Posts: 1,465
    Coyote wrote:
    Had a read through the rock climbers forum and what a jolly good read it is too! Correction - was, it's been pulled.

    Just a wee thought regarding the talk of 4 hours "imprisonment" that appears to be intollerable for some....what do they do when it snows?...it is highland Perthshire after all... I guess they complain to those responsible...that will be God then, won't it?. Oh, hang on a mo....but they can't do that either can they... because they can't get to church - and don't they have to get to church to talk to God? - because the roads will be blocked! :lol:

    Snow? Never heard of snow tyres and ice spikes?

    Was pissing my self in November when they had a woman living out in the highlands somewhere complaining that her farm track was all ice and she couldn't get out.
    Garraway said something like "And your husbands a countryside ranger so it's not like you aren't prepared"
    The farm track was indeed ice solid, a camera van clearly had got up to the house though, and if her husban was able to walk throguh the fields to his landy at the bottom of the hill then surley he coudl ahve drive to a tyre place with a set of wheels to get spikes fitted.
    <video of ice racing>
    Do Nellyphants count?

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  • telemark
    telemark Posts: 18
    Had a read through the rock climbers forum and what a jolly good read it is too! Correction - was, it's been pulled.


    No, back up now after some spring cleaning
  • TallBlondJohn
    TallBlondJohn Posts: 14
    AlunP wrote:
    IF he is found guilty there must be the question of civil liability in addition to any criminal fines etc. If a defendant has no money there is no point in taking civil action - BUT if he has funds he could be ordered by a civil court to pay compensation for losses.

    <snip>

    And getting the cullprit to buy you replacement inner tubes and your costs does help to bring about some justice.

    I wouldn't be suprised if he's counting on a community wip-round to pay his fine - which makes it even more important that the small claims are made against him.
  • Directory enquiry
    Directory enquiry Posts: 1
    Two things that it would be usefull to have a Scottish Legal brain answer

    1. I think the burden of proof for civil case (damages) is less than for a criminal case - so if found not guilty (or not proven) of the criminal charge a civil case for damages might still be won?

    2. Can anything be done now to prevent him transfering all his assets to his wife?
  • pneumatic
    pneumatic Posts: 1,989
    never mind the legal stuff; the locals are going to regard him as a pariah. It could get very nasty. Personally, I'd like a non-violent half hour with the old boy. I'm arrogant enough to think I might be able to argue some sense into the poor b8stard.

    Fast and Bulbous
    Peregrinations
    Eddingtons: 80 (Metric); 60 (Imperial)
  • montevideoguy
    montevideoguy Posts: 2,271
    It's not a very Christian act dropping tacks everywhere
    Formally known as Coatbridgeguy
  • aurelio_-_banned
    aurelio_-_banned Posts: 1,317
    Coatbridgeguy wrote:
    It's not a very Christian act dropping tacks everywhere
    I don't know, having smote them down with the carpet tacks, the next step is probably a plague of saddle boils!
  • IanTrcp
    IanTrcp Posts: 761
    An interesting parallel....

    http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/News/ ... ng-sweets/

    A motorcyclist has told how he was electronically tagged for four months and given a 36-hour community order – for dropping mint imperials while riding.

    Thomas Payne, 19, must be at home from 8pm till 6am under the terms of his ankle tag after police spotted the trail of sweets left by his Yamaha DT175.

    A police charge notice said he had ‘intentionally and without authority or reasonable cause, caused sweets to be on a road, namely Lancaster Circus, in such circumstances that it would have been obvious to a reasonable person that to do so would be dangerous’ contrary to the Road Traffic Act.

    Payne insists: “They were just falling out of my pocket. Because of the time they followed me for they said I should have known.”

    Payne was stopped in Birmingham on March 16. He pleaded guilty and was sentenced at Birmingham Magistrates Court on March 24. He was ordered to pay £50 costs.

    He said: “For a 19-year-old being housebound every night is hell.”

    He must also spend three hours every Saturday taking part in group activities including woodwork classes until his community order is completed. “I count myself lucky I’m still allowed to eat sweets,” he said.

    West Midlands Police confirmed: “A man aged 19 was arrested on the March 16 in Lancaster Circus, Birmingham, on suspicion of endangering road users.

    "He was charged on March 17 and appeared at Birmingham Magistrates Court on March 24.”
  • bompington
    bompington Posts: 7,674
    IanTrcp wrote:
    An interesting parallel....
    As this story suggests, the real variable for how big the sentence is (I'm assuming a guilty verdict!) is how seriously the police/courts push it.
    But personally I think that sweeping the whole course with a handbrush before next year's event would do.

    But actually, it is the guilty verdict that matters, because even if he's only given a slap on the wrist, if he's found guilty he's liable for criminal damages...
    2 tyres, 2 tubes, and yes, I think I'll claim for the patches too.
  • Dr U Idh
    Dr U Idh Posts: 324
    I wonder what the Church of Scotlands policy is on having a convicted criminal as a church elder?
  • aurelio_-_banned
    aurelio_-_banned Posts: 1,317
    edited May 2009
    IanTrcp wrote:
    An interesting parallel....

    http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/News/ ... ng-sweets/

    A motorcyclist has told how he was electronically tagged for four months and given a 36-hour community order – for dropping mint imperials while riding.
    Yes, but motorcyclists, as another minority 'out-group', are generally treated as badly by the British 'justice' system as cyclists are. In 25 years of driving in the UK I was stopped just once by the police when driving a car - for a tail-light bulb that had blown without me being aware of it. When I had a motorcycle you could guarantee that every police car that could stop you, would stop you. A friend of mine got stopped 36 times in 3 months!

    I recall that even 'Not the nine 'o clock news' even ran a sketch in this, where a police officer talked about how great it was to be a copper 'stopping motorcyclists and driving really slowly past black people'.
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    Yeah, cos if a bunch of Cambridge lefties said it, it must be true. :lol:
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • aurelio_-_banned
    aurelio_-_banned Posts: 1,317
    disgruntledgoat wrote:
    Yeah, cos if a bunch of Cambridge lefties said it, it must be true. :lol:
    I was comedy and there is a saying about the nature of the best comedy... 'It's funny because it's true'. :wink:

    As to your use of the term 'lefties', you say that as though it were an insult.

    I can remember a time (oddly enough in the decades after ‘right-wing’ ideologies had led the world into the most destructive war in human history and the reactive move towards ‘lefty’ ideologies had made possible the creation of the British NHS, was forcing improvements in the working conditions of millions of ordinary people and offered the hope of a more just, inclusive society) when to be regarded as something of a 'lefty' was a compliment.

    How far the pendulum has swung back towards the psychology, if not the political ideology, of fascism... and this Grosset guy is probably as classical an example of a right-wing, authoritarian, out-group hating, 'Daily Mail reader' as you could ever wish to find.
  • CyclingBantam
    CyclingBantam Posts: 1,299
    andy_from_embsay wrote:
    An independent report (discounted by ACRE, of course, because they didn't ask enough objectors) reckoned £420k of extra revenue attributable to the 2008 event - plus of course many people will think "cor, s'nice 'ere" and come back. Also Macmillan Cancer Research gets c£500k out of it too,

    £420k / 3500 competirors works out at £120 per head. Logically that seems very reasonable, if anything possibly on the low side.
  • Philip Whiteman
    Philip Whiteman Posts: 470
    See, not all locals object..........


    Sabotage at charity cycle
    May 19 2009 by Julie Ross, Perthshire Advertiser Tuesday

    LOCALS have hit out at vandals who caused chaos at the Etape Caledonia on Sunday by covering the road with carpet tacks.

    At 8am, 3500 riders set off, and the incident happened about 43 miles into the 81-mile course, creating huge risk as riders were sent flying and dozens of tyres punctured.

    Highland Councillor Ken Lyall told the PA: “There has been a concerted campaign by some who are against the race, but I never thought anyone would stoop so low.

    “It could have caused more than a few injuries, but luckily it didn’t.”

    The tacks had been strewn over five miles of road between Innerhadden and Schiehallion, holding the race up for an hour and a half while organisers scrambled to deal with the safety risk.

    He added: “What kind of message does this send to cyclists and visitors from outside Perth and Kinross and Scotland?

    “I hope this act of vandalism only makes the organisers more determined to make it a success. They may need better mechanisms to check the road, leaving less time before the runners reach the places.

    “The thought of losing 3500 cyclists and thousands more people who come to watch the race is just madness.”

    Tayside Police are investigating the incident and already have made some positive lines of inquiry.

    It is believed that the tacks were laid after race officials did their final pre-race check between 6.30 and 7am.

    Highland Perthshire councillor Ian Campbell said: “I have had calls from all over Highland Perthshire expressing outrage and sorrow that visitors to our area should be treated like this.

    “We want these visitors to come back again and again and not to have the impression that Perthshire does not welcome visitors. I was at the finish in Pitlochry and it was great to hear of the different parts of the UK that these cyclists and their families came from.

    “To treat our visitors in such a malicious manner is appalling and I am sure most people in Highland Perthshire will be disgusted at this action.”

    It is thought that the reason for the carpet tacks was that there is opposition to the roads being closed for the race.

    MSP John Swinney also voiced his anger at the vandals’ actions.

    He said: “This is a highly dangerous act which could have brought serious injury to people on the event.

    “This event brings many visitors to Highland Perthshire and such an act is totally contrary to the hospitable and welcoming traditions of this area.”

    None of the riders suffered significant injuries as a result of the vandalism. Two people were airlifted to hospital following crashes on other parts of the course, but weren’t related to the carpet tacks.

    Jon Hazan, one of the directors of organisers IMG, told the PA that they weren’t going to let a minority spoil the event for the majority.

    He said: “What they did was cowardly, there is no doubt it was reckless, and the locations of the sabotage could have had huge implications.

    “But we are determined that this event will continue to go from strength to strength. Of course, we will continue to work with those affected by the race and look at their concerns and minimise them.

    “We will be meeting with the police and the council to re-evaluate our safety measures.

    “The race brings in nearly £1million to the local community and businesses and nearly a quarter of a million for charity.”

    A spokesman for Tayside Police said: “In what were reckless and irresponsible actions, tacks were scattered on the roadway in the Aberfeldy area at some point this morning. This resulted in a number of the 3500-plus cyclists suffering punctured tyres and the temporary postponement of the race.

    “Officers are carrying out investigations in the area and are following a positive line of inquiry.’’

    “We would appeal to anyone who has any information to call Tayside Police on 0300 111 2222, or speak to any officer.”

    Meanwhile the group campaigning to stop the Etape denied any involvement in Sunday’s sabotage.

    Peter Hounam, from Anti Closed Road Event (ACRE), admitted that while they are against road closures for Etape, they had nothing to do with the vandalism.

    He said: “We totally deplore anyone taking direct action and we want people to have peaceful protests.

    “We don’t condone what has happened, but it shows there is real frustration from people who feel the authorities are not listening to them.”

    But not all of the public felt that the vandals’ reasons for action were wrong.

    Paul Bright, from Fortingall, said: “How refreshing to see that the public has taken direct action to halt an unwanted event forced on them by the local county council.

    “Whilst I cannot possibly condone the causing of damage and possible injuries to cyclists I am sure that this was the only avenue of protest left to the people of the Pitlochry/Aberfeldy area who did not wish this race to occur.

    “These closures have the effect of isolating whole communities from access to services both mundane and emergency and from the ability to exercise their religious faith by travelling to the local churches.”
  • andy_from_embsay
    andy_from_embsay Posts: 343
    £420k / 3500 competirors works out at £120 per head. Logically that seems very reasonable, if anything possibly on the low side.

    I think this was £416k of incremental income, but even so i can well believe it. What's so irritating about the ACRE campaign saying that "ony a few B&Bs benefit" is that it ognores the fact that the couple of hundred quid the B&B owner makes then gets spent with the local newsagent, the local builder, the local chip shop or even the local gift emporium and chocolatier.

    O-level economics![/quote]
  • doyler78
    doyler78 Posts: 1,951
    andy_from_embsay wrote:
    £420k / 3500 competirors works out at £120 per head. Logically that seems very reasonable, if anything possibly on the low side.

    I think this was £416k of incremental income, but even so i can well believe it. What's so irritating about the ACRE campaign saying that "ony a few B&Bs benefit" is that it ognores the fact that the couple of hundred quid the B&B owner makes then gets spent with the local newsagent, the local builder, the local chip shop or even the local gift emporium and chocolatier.

    O-level economics!
    [/quote]

    Or on a foreign holiday for the owners - global economy :lol:
  • CyclingBantam
    CyclingBantam Posts: 1,299
    doyler78 wrote:
    andy_from_embsay wrote:
    £420k / 3500 competirors works out at £120 per head. Logically that seems very reasonable, if anything possibly on the low side.

    I think this was £416k of incremental income, but even so i can well believe it. What's so irritating about the ACRE campaign saying that "ony a few B&Bs benefit" is that it ognores the fact that the couple of hundred quid the B&B owner makes then gets spent with the local newsagent, the local builder, the local chip shop or even the local gift emporium and chocolatier.

    O-level economics!

    Or on a foreign holiday for the owners - global economy :lol:[/quote]

    And the accompanying local taxi to the airport....

    It frustrates me as well some of the comments that ONLY certain area's on the route benefit. It is this terrible attitude that some have whereby "if they benefit then so should I and If I can't then they shouldn't either.". I think some are being a spot too generous to the locals (who appear to be in the vast minority) who are complaining about the disruption. Lets get this right. We are talking about 3 hours of road closures once a year. Out of 8544 hour per year, they must have those specific 3 hours to drive about.

    The town I live in has a folk music festival in it once a year. I dislike folk music and am not too keen on morris dancing either however for that day it is still nice to see hundreds of people about the town. I even manage to get by without being on the roads for a while. It is all about accepting that in order to live in the society we do today where we have so many opportunities to do pretty much anything we desire we have to make the occasional sacrifice. It is embarassing we have to even discuss it.

    Do these local church groups that people are so concerned over not have a vilage fate each year on the local plying fields? Well maybe someone wanted to play football that day. Does that mean the fete must be canned. Total bunkum.
  • aurelio_-_banned
    aurelio_-_banned Posts: 1,317
    BenBlyth wrote:
    It is all about accepting that in order to live in the society we do today where we have so many opportunities to do pretty much anything we desire we have to make the occasional sacrifice. It is embarassing we have to even discuss it.
    You appear to be forgetting that in post-Thatcherite / Blairite Britain, 'There is no such thing as society'. Instead the principle is those who get their way are those who can weild the most power, either individual power via wealth, connections (apparently Rotary clubs are good for this!), social position and office, or collective power, otherwise known as 'mob rule'. (Best-illustrated by the way private car users have appropriated the public road, with all others being expected to use 'the motorists' roads almost at their own risk and with drivers feeling they have suffered some great wrong if they cannot use 'their' road whenever and almost however they please.)
  • ellieb
    ellieb Posts: 436
    i thought it was just some embittered nutter with a bag of tacks :lol:
  • JWallace
    JWallace Posts: 12
    the way forward with this incident is to take the convicted person/s to the small claims court over any damage to persons or cycles,this way if only a handful take this course of action,it will ensure the finiancial cost of defending numerous court actions,would set an example against a repeat of Sundays incident

    Jim Wallace
  • Tusher
    Tusher Posts: 2,762
    Dr U Idh wrote:
    I wonder what the Church of Scotlands policy is on having a convicted criminal as a church elder?


    A very good point, Dr.

    The elders constitute the Kirk Session (which has the power to kick out a Minister for whatever reason) and once chosen as an elder, you are ordained for life. Generally speaking, an elder has a district of around 12 households, and when it comes to difficult/contentious issues arising, they are supposed to bring the views of their district to Session. Incidently, the General Assembly of the Kirk (starts today) is, technically, the highest Church Court in the Land. I'm not in Edinburgh this year, but if I do hear any gossip, I'll pass it on.

    I'm not 100% certain of course, but I'm fairly sure that the rest of the Elders on the Session will have much to say about this, and pressure will be exerted on him to stand down.

    Deeply saddened that it was a Kirk elder, I have to say.
  • andy_wrx
    andy_wrx Posts: 3,396
    Is there not any one of you who suffered puctures or other damage who is a member of CTC or BC and has contacted their Legal Aid dept to find-out how they will help you claim against this guy, in the same way as they'd help you claim agaisnt a motorist who hit you or the council if you crashed in a pothole ?
  • nwallace
    nwallace Posts: 1,465
    andy_from_embsay wrote:
    £420k / 3500 competirors works out at £120 per head. Logically that seems very reasonable, if anything possibly on the low side.

    I think this was £416k of incremental income, but even so i can well believe it. What's so irritating about the ACRE campaign saying that "ony a few B&Bs benefit" is that it ognores the fact that the couple of hundred quid the B&B owner makes then gets spent with the local newsagent, the local builder, the local chip shop or even the local gift emporium and chocolatier.

    O-level economics!
    [/quote]

    er. Rannoch is 37 miles from Pitlochry according to Multimaps chosen route and totally marooned, bugger all use to anyone connected to the event unless they are staying on for a bit. If the road from the station to the Kingshouse had been built it might be a different matter.

    It's almost like suggesting that Glenrothes por Livingstone gain from the Edinburgh festival.

    Their economic gain is -ve as any buisness they coudl have got has gone. I think the nearest chipper is either the one at the Loch Tummel Holiday park or in Aberfeldy.
    Do Nellyphants count?

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  • andy_from_embsay
    andy_from_embsay Posts: 343
    Nobody is suggesting that every single household in the entire area benefits by x quid - but that the economic benefit affects more than those who directly serve the participants and their families.

    And it's a sad fact of life that not everybody can benefit from everything - however the council that is democratically elected have decided that the very short term inconvenience outweighs the longer term benefits.

    I'd suggest ACRE put up candidates in every ward of the next council elections on a "stop the Etape" ticket and assuming they win (which they surely will if opposition is so widespread) then they can cancel it. If they don't then they should shut the f@*! up - it looks to me like plenty of compromises have been attempted, yet to the objectors nothing short of open roads will do - and eventually the answer has to be "tough - get over it".
  • rip_van
    rip_van Posts: 8
    nwallace wrote:

    It's almost like suggesting that Glenrothes por Livingstone gain from the Edinburgh festival.

    They don't? :shock:
  • doyler78
    doyler78 Posts: 1,951
    andy_from_embsay wrote:
    Nobody is suggesting that every single household in the entire area benefits by x quid - but that the economic benefit affects more than those who directly serve the participants and their families.

    And it's a sad fact of life that not everybody can benefit from everything - however the council that is democratically elected have decided that the very short term inconvenience outweighs the longer term benefits.

    I'd suggest ACRE put up candidates in every ward of the next council elections on a "stop the Etape" ticket and assuming they win (which they surely will if opposition is so widespread) then they can cancel it. If they don't then they should shut the f@*! up - it looks to me like plenty of compromises have been attempted, yet to the objectors nothing short of open roads will do - and eventually the answer has to be "tough - get over it".

    All this talk of economic benefits, etc is all fine and dandy however the simple fact of economics is that what is raised by the Etape is money that is going to be lost to the local economies of each any every participant so if you are so worried about local economies why not start at home if bothers you that much.

    And nobody should stop campaigning for something they believe in just because other don't believe in it. That I'm afraid is the essence of democracy and freedom of speech and not the idea that the majority wins. Its attitudes like yours that would have left blacks as slaves. With your simple analogy how many MPs do you think would have voted for the abolishion of the slave trade at the start of the campaign? So no I don't think that elections are an answer to changing attitudes so perhaps you should wind your red neck in.

    The actions of the guy are clearly wrong and he will gets his just deserts in the courts both criminally and civilally by the sound of things. As for ACRE they will probably find it hard to continue their campaign in the light of the recent events and if they do they are likely to become even more determined and more unreceptive to the arguments of the cycling lobby and nothing that you say here, which is basically as entrenched as their position, will do anything to change that. Campaigns like that require publicity and they are certainly getting plenty of that and unfortunately whilst a lot of people outside of cycling will be saying all the right things about how deplorable this is because that's what people do I won't half bet that a lot of them had a snigger or two when they seen those pics with a bunch of cyclists stood looking forlornly at their bikes. You may think people are better than that but I don't. Unless anyone is actually seriously injured or killed then they will not treat the incident as that serious that it demands them to feel any great empathy for you at all. Sorry but that's what I see everyday. Cyclists aren't well liked outside of their own circles and that's where the problem lies. Sort that and you will have the people lining the roads to cheer you on but too often when cofronted with any sort of cycling related issue our tendency is to rant and rave totally putting anybody off listening to a single word we say. Rather like this whole debate on here which is totally over the top diatribe and not far short of the lynch mob mentality.
  • nwallace
    nwallace Posts: 1,465
    andy_from_embsay wrote:
    Nobody is suggesting that every single household in the entire area benefits by x quid - but that the economic benefit affects more than those who directly serve the participants and their families.

    And it's a sad fact of life that not everybody can benefit from everything - however the council that is democratically elected have decided that the very short term inconvenience outweighs the longer term benefits.

    I'd suggest ACRE put up candidates in every ward of the next council elections on a "stop the Etape" ticket and assuming they win (which they surely will if opposition is so widespread) then they can cancel it. If they don't then they should shut the f@*! up - it looks to me like plenty of compromises have been attempted, yet to the objectors nothing short of open roads will do - and eventually the answer has to be "tough - get over it".

    er, Do you know how big Perthsire is?
    Do you really think the people of Invergowrie, Perth or Coupar Angus give a toss about a small village at the end of a road in Highland Perthshire?

    Moving round Scotland a bit more?
    Would the residents of Cupar be pissed off if they were cut out so St Andrews could host a Golf tournament every year?
    Would they not have a right to complain and protest because the neeburs are gaining something to their detriment?

    Fife is percieved to have a very strong split between the North East which is mostly farmland and affluent and the Central and West Fife areas where the collieries once were. From the Tay Coast vilalges trips to school take almost 45 minutes, have we no right to complain about the poor school availability because building one woud ltake funds away from Glenrothes?

    How about telling the Geordies to shut up about underinvestment in the North East because they are missing out so London can benefit?
    Do Nellyphants count?

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  • Harry-flashman
    Harry-flashman Posts: 12
    I think the point is that the benefits for the majority far out weigh the minor inconvenience caused to the few.

    Lets not forget that we are talking about a couple of hours on a Sunday! I don't complain when the main road through my village is reduced to one way every Sunday when church is on.

    I, like the people who argue against road closures chose to live in the country, I live with the inconveniences that come with that choice. I get stuck behind shepherds moving their sheep, tractors pulling ploughs, woken by farmers driving through the village at 6.00am, it's country life and I love it! By it's nature it's a slower pace, they should relax, it'll add years on to their lives and reduce the need for that 2 1/2 hour wait for an ambulance.

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