Rebellin positive at olympics
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Oh for gawds sake, you've played right into his hands here Aurelio. It's like arguing with an echo chamber.0
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The poor aren't capable of making money work for them. All they will do is squander it.
:roll: :roll: :roll:0 -
You said that 'she does present compelling arguments'. A compelling argument is one that you feel has great merit or is convincing or is hard to disagree with. So it does seem that you do agree with her views to a significant degree. (Or perhaps you only 'buy in' to the views of those whose arguments you find weak and unconvincing).dennisn wrote:Let's clarify this a bit. I never said I bought into the "Rand" ideal...
I do not find her arguments 'compelling' and ergo I do not 'buy in' to her world view or values.0 -
The following is taken from from the 'The Authoritarian Personality' by T.W Adorno et al and published in 1950, the classic study of the right-wing authoritarian mindset, whether it is displayed by Neo-conservatives, Rand-inspired 'libertarians', 'Daily Mail readers' or good old-fashioned fascists.GeorgeShaw wrote:
:roll: :roll: :roll:The poor aren't capable of making money work for them. All they will do is squander it.
…The general pattern we are investigating here is characterized by an all-pervasive feature. These subjects want no pity for the poor, neither here nor abroad. This trail seems to be strictly confined to high scorers and to be one of the most differentiating features in political philosophy. At this point, the interrelatedness of some ideas measured by the PEC [Political-Economic Conservatism] scale and certain attitudes caught by the F [Fascism] scale should be stressed. Abolition of the dole, rejection of state interference with the "natural" play of supply and demand on the labor market, the spirit of the adage "who does not work, shall not eat" belong to the traditional wisdom of economic rugged individualism and are stressed by all those who regard the liberal system as being endangered by socialism. At the same time, the ideas involved have a tinge of punitiveness and authoritarian aggressiveness which makes them ideal receptacles of some typical psychological urges of the prejudiced character…
The attitude of indifference to the lot of the poor together with admiration for rich and successful people sheds light on the potential attitude of the high scorers toward the prospective victims of fascism in a critical situation. Those who humiliate mentally those who are down-trodden anyway, are more than likely to react the same way when an outgroup is being "liquidated."
See also: http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/0 -
aurelio wrote:
You said that 'she does present compelling arguments'. A compelling argument is one that you feel has great merit or is convincing or is hard to disagree with. So it does seem that you do agree with her views to a significant degree. (Or perhaps you only 'buy in' to the views of those whose arguments you find weak and unconvincing).dennisn wrote:Let's clarify this a bit. I never said I bought into the "Rand" ideal...
I do not find her arguments 'compelling' and ergo I do not 'buy in' to her world view or values.
I'm not following you. You make "compelling arguments" yourself but I don't buy into
all of them. The're compelling in that they make me think. Lots of people make compelling arguments about pretty much everything.
Dennis Noward0 -
GeorgeShaw wrote:The poor aren't capable of making money work for them. All they will do is squander it.
:roll: :roll: :roll:
In her book Atlas Shrugged, Ayn stated that the real value of a person to society and the
world in general was how much money they made. That was the sign of you're worth.
You have to read the book to get a handle on her thinking. It's a monstrous read and she can go on for several chapters about her ideas and how they would work in the real world. I found the book a very enjoyable and a good story, if a bit long winded at times.
Dennis Noward0 -
Somehow I can't imagine finding a book whose values I found to be morally reprehensible to be 'one of my favourite books' and 'very enjoyable', and even less so one that I 'loved'.dennisn wrote:I found the book a very enjoyable and a good story0 -
iainf72 wrote:dennisn wrote:"You'd think he'd be a bit annoyed.....". Maybe he is. I don't know. Maybe those two were friends of his. What's he supposed to say? If they were friends of yours, what would you do or say? He's not their spokesman.
If a friend of yours broke the law and put your job at risk doing it, would you have an opinion on it? Or would you just shrug and go "he's my friend"
Mmmmm Johnny no mates then Iain ?Gasping - but somehow still alive !0 -
aurelio wrote:
Somehow I can't imagine finding a book whose values I found to be morally reprehensible to be 'one of my favourite books' and 'very enjoyable', and even less so one that I 'loved'.dennisn wrote:I found the book a very enjoyable and a good story
It's a work of FICTION. Just curious. Have you have ever read "The Satanic Verses" by Rushdie and if you did, what did you think of it?. I found it hard to follow, but could see how some clerics could find it blasphemous, although once again, it's a work of fiction.
Dennis Noward0 -
So what? Many works of fiction deliberately try to say something very real about the nature of humanity. Similarly, many writers, including Rand, have used fiction as a vehicle to express their own politics and philosophy which, or so they believe, are relevant to the 'real world'.dennisn wrote:
I wonder, which of her arguments did you find to be 'compelling'?
Why did you 'get a kick' out of her views on Robin Hood and the idea that 'The poor aren't capable of making money work for them. All they will do is squander it'?0 -
Ayn Rand? Is he a South African rider on the Barloworld roster?
I'd actually like to post something on Rebellin but worried it'll be off topic. Maybe I can discuss how he was covertly filmed injecting EPO so long as I phrase it in line with Aurelio's heroic anti-surveillance stance, or reference it to 1984 and telescreens? :?:0 -
Just because somebody enjoys a certain piece of fiction doesn't necessarily mean that they agree with their views. I love some of the James Bond novels, but the politics of Ian Fleming leave me cold. So Dennis, when you say you find the arguments compelling, do you mean that the author expresses them eloquently or do you mean that you are attracted to the ideas themselves? Let's give the man a fair hearing before we burn him at the stake.
Who is this Rand anyway? Unfortunately I've not read much fiction for the last couple of years, so I'm a bit out of the loop.0 -
Kléber wrote:Ayn Rand? Is he a South African rider on the Barloworld roster?
I'd actually like to post something on Rebellin but worried it'll be off topic. Maybe I can discuss how he was covertly filmed injecting EPO so long as I phrase it in line with Aurelio's heroic anti-surveillance stance, or reference it to 1984 and telescreens? :?:
Now I didn't realise Rebellin had previously had such controversy surrounding him. It now seems clear that him testing positive is not such as a surprise as had it been some other riders. This leaves me with the question, Are we still able to believe Cycling is getting cleaner and there is more a mindset of doing it clean amoungst riders? Was Rebellin just an old doper that has finally been caught?
With Schumacher being the other rider and we already knew about him, maybe this doesn't cause as much concern as had it been, I don't know, Sastre and Voigt (Who I would assume are clean).0 -
In her book Atlas Shrugged, Ayn stated that the real value of a person to society and the world in general was how much money they made. That was the sign of you're worth.
I'll never doubt the wisdom of the Mafia again.0 -
BenBlyth wrote:
With Schumacher being the other rider and we already knew about him, maybe this doesn't cause as much concern as had it been, I don't know, Sastre and Voigt (Who I would assume are clean).
I direct you to Bella Jorgs comments.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id= ... sche_jul07Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
Ayn Rand was an American 'thinker' who, among other things, argued for laissez-faire capitalism based on minimal-government 'libertarianism' and individualism. A darling of many neo-conservatives and right-wing 'libertarians'. Strongly opposed to all forms of egalitarianism, including the state provison of health care, welfare benefits and so on. Also opposed to any form of altruistic behaviour, arguing that the individual "must exist for his own sake, neither sacrificing himself to others nor sacrificing others to himself. The pursuit of his own rational self-interest and of his own happiness is the highest moral purpose of his life."johnfinch wrote:Who is this Rand anyway? Unfortunately I've not read much fiction for the last couple of years, so I'm a bit out of the loop.
('Look after number one', in other words).
Her views are very influential, especially in the US (not surprisingly....). Her name is mentioned in almost 3.4 million documents on the web. She once said:
Today's mawkish concern with and compassion for the feeble, the flawed, the suffering, the guilty, is a cover for the profoundly Kantian hatred of the innocent, the strong, the able, the successful, the virtuous, the confident, the happy... Hatred of the good for being the good, is the hallmark of the twentieth century.
Just compare that to the claims of many Lance fan boys that the exposure of Armstrong's Epo use and so on was motivated by the supposed fact that 'The French hate winners'.
As I suggested earlier, to properly understand both the 'cult of Armstrong' and the nature of the anti-French xenophobia that is fed and exploited by Armstrong, one needs to understand the underlying political and psychological attitudes of both Armstrong and his followers which, going by the sort of comments that are posted on the web, appears to be predominantly right-wing and anti-egalitarian. Hence their hatred of 'The French', largely for their tradition of 'Liberty, egality and fraternity' and their belief in the value of the state. (As exemplified by the 'socialised' nature of the French health-care system). Also, consider that quote I posted earlier from Adorno where he argued that one defining quality of the right-wing mindset is an 'admiration for rich and successful people'...0 -
Kléber wrote:I'd actually like to post something on Rebellin but worried it'll be off topic. Maybe I can discuss how he was covertly filmed injecting EPO so long as I phrase it in line with Aurelio's heroic anti-surveillance stance, or reference it to 1984 and telescreens? 0
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Schumacher being presumably targetted again in the Olympics makes me wonder why this is so? I hope that it is because he really stood out as his test results were more abnormal than others' but you never know0
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johnfinch wrote:Just because somebody enjoys a certain piece of fiction doesn't necessarily mean that they agree with their views. I love some of the James Bond novels, but the politics of Ian Fleming leave me cold. So Dennis, when you say you find the arguments compelling, do you mean that the author expresses them eloquently or do you mean that you are attracted to the ideas themselves? Let's give the man a fair hearing before we burn him at the stake.
Who is this Rand anyway? Unfortunately I've not read much fiction for the last couple of years, so I'm a bit out of the loop.
Well, it's like I told "aurelio", I find his arguments compelling, i.e. readable, if you will, may not agree, but read his views none the less. I find them interesting, for lack of a better word.
As for Ayn Rand she is a Russian born author who wrote three major books. The final one being Atlas Shrugged and if you decide to give it a read you will find out that it's not "who is this Rand?" but "Who is John Galt"?. It's the first sentence in the book.
Strangely enough it's one of the most read books in the world(as I understand it).
dennis noward0 -
I assume that you meant to say 'her' in the above. Whatever, neither 'readable', nor 'interesting' are synonyms for 'compelling'. Backtracking? Or perhaps you should lay off the elitist, right-wing propaganda for a while and buy a dictionary.dennisn wrote:I find his arguments compelling, i.e. readable, if you will, may not agree, but read his views none the less. I find them interesting, for lack of a better word.
Anyhow, as I asked earlier:
Which of her arguments did you find to be 'compelling'?
Why did you 'get a kick' out of her views on Robin Hood and the idea that 'The poor aren't capable of making money work for them. All they will do is squander it'?0 -
aurelio wrote:
I assume that you meant to say 'her' in the above. Whatever, neither 'readable', nor 'interesting' are synonyms for 'compelling'. Backtracking? Or perhaps you should lay off the elitist, right-wing propaganda for a while and buy a dictionary.dennisn wrote:I find his arguments compelling, i.e. readable, if you will, may not agree, but read his views none the less. I find them interesting, for lack of a better word.
Anyhow, as I asked earlier:
Which of her arguments did you find to be 'compelling'?
Why did you 'get a kick' out of her views on Robin Hood and the idea that 'The poor aren't capable of making money work for them. All they will do is squander it'?
The operative word in all of this is FICTION. Ayn Rand was 180 degrees out from the vast majority of the world. I simply found her works very interesting reading. I'm allowed to find things interesting and "COMPELLING"(if you will).
Dennis Noward0 -
So, are you going to answer my questions or not?dennisn wrote:
The operative word in all of this is FICTION. Ayn Rand was 180 degrees out from the vast majority of the world. I simply found her works very interesting reading. I'm allowed to find things interesting and "COMPELLING"(if you will).aurelio wrote:... neither 'readable', nor 'interesting' are synonyms for 'compelling'. Backtracking? Or perhaps you should lay off the elitist, right-wing propaganda for a while and buy a dictionary.
Anyhow, as I asked earlier:
Which of her arguments did you find to be 'compelling'?
Why did you 'get a kick' out of her views on Robin Hood and the idea that 'The poor aren't capable of making money work for them. All they will do is squander it'?0 -
And next week on BOOKRADAR we will be discussing.................
Does anybody know what the prize money was for winning Fleche Wallonne? And will Rebellin be able to keep his slice of it?0 -
Strangely enough it's one of the most read books in the world(as I understand it).
Only if the world = the USA.0 -
GeorgeShaw wrote:Strangely enough it's one of the most read books in the world(as I understand it).
Only if the world = the USA.
I hope that you're not implying that Americans are insular in any way. :shock:0 -
This thread has certianly confirmed my long-held suspicion that aurelio's main reason for disliking Armstrong is not doping (after all plenty of others were at it and people like Ullrich and Indurain also made pots of cash out of their success) but Armstrong's perceived (by aurelio) political hue (and that of his supporters).Le Blaireau (1)0
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So can we have a separate section for 'Politics' then where these people can play ??
By the way do we have the facility to 'Ignore' specific posters ??
I know other forums do. It would make trawling through (Off) topics like this less annoying.0 -
SunWuKong wrote:GeorgeShaw wrote:Strangely enough it's one of the most read books in the world(as I understand it).
Only if the world = the USA.
I hope that you're not implying that Americans are insular in any way. :shock:
Unfortunately Dennis may also presume that Americans read a lot of books
It's all too easily refuted. Just try amazon.fr. 300,000+ best-seller in France!
I would imagine that amongst the worlds best sellers there are many Chinese, Hindi or Spanish books that we've never even heard of.0 -
DaveyL wrote:This thread has certianly confirmed my long-held suspicion that aurelio's main reason for disliking Armstrong is not doping (after all plenty of others were at it and people like Ullrich and Indurain also made pots of cash out of their success) but Armstrong's perceived (by aurelio) political hue (and that of his supporters).
LA is self-described "left of centre", from an interview he did with the Grauniad. Sorry, I can't supply you with a link.0 -
aurelio wrote:
So, are you going to answer my questions or not?dennisn wrote:
The operative word in all of this is FICTION. Ayn Rand was 180 degrees out from the vast majority of the world. I simply found her works very interesting reading. I'm allowed to find things interesting and "COMPELLING"(if you will).aurelio wrote:... neither 'readable', nor 'interesting' are synonyms for 'compelling'. Backtracking? Or perhaps you should lay off the elitist, right-wing propaganda for a while and buy a dictionary.
Anyhow, as I asked earlier:
Which of her arguments did you find to be 'compelling'?
Why did you 'get a kick' out of her views on Robin Hood and the idea that 'The poor aren't capable of making money work for them. All they will do is squander it'?
"Which of her arguments......?" My answer to that is - the whole book is an argument for her point of view. I wouldn't know where to start. Read the book is all I can offer.
"..... her views on Robin Hood......?" To be honest I had never heard anyone put it the way she did. Robin Hood was always the good guy. Wasn't he?
"The poor aren't capable......." First, this is not a quote from the book. It's my impression
of what she is saying pretty much throughout the novel. Second, once again I remind you that this is a work of FICTION. Fiction being, well, fiction(not sure if there is a better word).
How did I do? And by the way, you owe me answer about Rushdie's "Satanic Verses".
Dennis Noward0
