Hamilton Positive

Kléber

If he's ill, then this isn't a sporting matter. I found McQuaid's comments pretty nasty, its as if he has some favourite riders but little time for others.

Birillo

Doesn't anyone feel sorry for Ekimov and Julich (2nd and 3rd in the Olympic TT), or Mayo and Boogerd (2nd and 3rd in LBL 2003)? Perhaps not.

disgruntledgoat

Birillo wrote:

Doesn't anyone feel sorry for Ekimov and Julich (2nd and 3rd in the Olympic TT), or Mayo and Boogerd (2nd and 3rd in LBL 2003)? Perhaps not.

No, not one bit. None of them.

afx237vi

Birillo wrote:

Doesn't anyone feel sorry for Ekimov and Julich (2nd and 3rd in the Olympic TT), or Mayo and Boogerd (2nd and 3rd in LBL 2003)? Perhaps not.

Errr... no.

aurelio_-_banned

It sometimes seems that every North American pro cyclist is not fully prepared for racing unless they are suffering, or have suffered from, some sort 'infirmity' that they can use to deflect criticism - cancer, depression, arthritis - the list goes on. (Along with a related ‘charitable foundation’ / PR machine of course).

Maybe Hamilton has had some sort of depression, but being on antidepressants hardly marks him out. (There were over 30 million prescriptions made out for antidepressant drugs in the UK alone in 2006). Also, if Hamilton was truly clinically depressed he would have found it an overwhelming task just to get out of bed in the morning, never mind motivate himself to be a pro cyclist.

And does anyone really buy all that crap about how he came to have DHEA in his body? It's just amazing how many other athletes are taking similar 'homeopathic remedies'... :roll: And 'homeopathic'? Isn't that actually just another word for distilled water? (Link via CFA).

AFLD. Programme de détection dans les phanères de substances interdites

Dans 18 cas sur 22, la substance détectée est la DHEA (déhydroépiandrostérone, ou prastérone) seule, dans 3 autres cas de la testostérone seule, et 1 cas associe DHEA + testostérone.

http://tinyurl.com/cs3jye

markwalker

I wish i could read french

Aurelio, you say things so much less offensivley than i seem able to

micron

Testing for DHEA is the reason the AFLD took hair samples from Armstrong. It was also used extensively in the old East German doping regimes and is on the banned list because it can be used as a masking agent.

It's interesting that, in the same way the AFLD went from heroes for catching Ricco to villains for daring to challenge Armstrong, so Hamilton goes from villain to victim through the simple expedient of claiming he's been depressed for years. Hamilton has one of the most high profile positives ever, followed by another positive for the same offense, an extremely strong link to Puerto but now he's making a cry for help and we should be sympathetic, because Tyler isn't like those arrogant Euro dopers? I appreciate that depression touches a chord with many people - I suspect it's something that most of us have had some experience of - but I'm astonished that such a serial offender and denier is now a victim and martyr because of suffering that is largely of his own making.

VinceEager

Vaughters wrote:

Managers, fans, press, everyone needs to look at what they ask of riders. Think about it. You loved Tyler Hamilton getting fourth in the Tour and winning a stage with a broken collarbone. Think about that. What message does that send? He got the job done. He didn't let anyone down.

And now? Maybe he did make a ton of money, but believe me, most of his motivation was to not let down his family, his fans, his sponsors, the press and on and on. He didn't want anyone to be disappointed in him. He wanted you guys to love him and he wanted to be the nice guy. He wanted to 'get his job done'.

He wanted to make you guys happy and cheer! I know - that's what I wanted. And now? Tyler is still the same guy.

People and the press need to remember, athletes tend to be very self-conscious and they want to do what makes the crowd happy. Don't criticise and push hard and then act shocked when doping scandals erupt.

Athletes are humans - entertainers - and very fragile humans at that. Think of them as shivering greyhounds on a cold day. All they want is to go fast so they can see the smile on your face.

that really is pathetic.
if you break the rules deliberatly you are a cheat. if you break them by mistake you are a clown - either way you do not belong as a professional in a sport that is desperate to establish and enforce standards and credibility. its sounds harsh perhaps but until that ethos of professionalism is firmly rooted, the problem of doping will not go away.
for what its worth, imo sponsers hold the key. every industry is client driven and has to adapt to meet the expectations of who ever is bank rolling it. the more sponsers adopt zero tolerance appraoches to doping, the more this will filter down through the teams to the riders.

dave_1

you guys think Tyler hamilton alone should take responsibility alone when hundreds of them are to blame...your presumption of innocence for the not + riders is on a shaky foundation which you well know...the tests didn't work. Tyler Hamilton is no worse than Indurain or Armstrong IMO. You're either naive or just can;t handle the fact they were almost all + in reality. I am willing to believe Tyler H was depressed and did it to help that but ban him for life unless he stops the omerta....he knows much more than he is telling

markwalker

Dave_1 wrote:

you guys think Tyler hamilton alone should take responsibility alone when hundreds of them are to blame...your presumption of innocence for the not + riders is on a shaky foundation which you well know...the tests didn't work. Tyler Hamilton is no worse than Indurain or Armstrong IMO. You're either naive or just can;t handle the fact they were almost all + in reality. I am willing to believe Tyler H was depressed and did it to help that but ban him for life unless he stops the omerta....he knows much more than he is telling

I dont think anyone is saying the rest of the sport is clean, after all we know its not. What some people are saying is that Hamilton needs to at some point shoulder responsibility for his infractions and not try and hide behind excuses.

His defenders are already shouting and screaming at anyone who questions or dismisses him. I cant wait for the fall out once Armstrong "retires" after standing strong agansit the persecution of the whole French government zzzzzzzzz.

blazing_saddles

micron wrote:

It's interesting that, in the same way the AFLD went from heroes for catching Ricco to villains for daring to challenge Armstrong, so Hamilton goes from villain to victim through the simple expedient of claiming he's been depressed for years. Hamilton has one of the most high profile positives ever, followed by another positive for the same offense, an extremely strong link to Puerto but now he's making a cry for help and we should be sympathetic, because Tyler isn't like those arrogant Euro dopers? I appreciate that depression touches a chord with many people - I suspect it's something that most of us have had some experience of - but I'm astonished that such a serial offender and denier is now a victim and martyr because of suffering that is largely of his own making.

Funnily enough, I've been coming to the same conclusion. I've seen a number of posters, on several forums, who I thought had little or no sympathty for dope cheats, suddenly do and 180 and attack others for not accepting Hamilton, the "victim."
Suggest that Ricco was simply a victim of the system and should be looked at charitably?
People wanted him banned for the full term, even though he was preapred to name names.
IMO Ricco is no worse than Hamilton. There aren't degrees of guilt or innocence, here.
ALL are equaly culpable.

As for depression. I would be extremely surprised, were Hamilton to be the only suspended rider to suffer from this illness. Rather, I would expect the majority.
Many who suffer, would prefer not to bring it to the attention of the general public.

The whole system is to blame, is another argument. Most posters would be in accord.

dave_1

markwalker wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

you guys think Tyler hamilton alone should take responsibility alone when hundreds of them are to blame...your presumption of innocence for the not + riders is on a shaky foundation which you well know...the tests didn't work. Tyler Hamilton is no worse than Indurain or Armstrong IMO. You're either naive or just can;t handle the fact they were almost all + in reality. I am willing to believe Tyler H was depressed and did it to help that but ban him for life unless he stops the omerta....he knows much more than he is telling

I dont think anyone is saying the rest of the sport is clean, after all we know its not. What some people are saying is that Hamilton needs to at some point shoulder responsibility for his infractions and not try and hide behind excuses.

His defenders are already shouting and screaming at anyone who questions or dismisses him. I cant wait for the fall out once Armstrong "retires" after standing strong agansit the persecution of the whole French government zzzzzzzzz.

But Blaze, if you believe pretty much everyone did it...then you'd not be so annoyed at Tyler ...the anger at hamilton is premised on the assumption that he cheated the peleton when we know the peleton all did the same as him. Therefore, it's not fair to abuse Tyler Hamilton alone to excess. I don't want his gold medal to go to Ekimov or Julich...I don't have huge faith in them. Gaummont has made specific allegations about Livingston and Julich at Coifidis which were never investigated. Nobody is getting angry at them. How many of these people are thanking their lucky stars they dodged the bullets Tyler didn't

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id= ... /jun03news

blazing_saddles

Dave: I don't blame Hamilton, anymore than I blame Ricco. I said that.
I'm all for consistency. It seems to have gone missing with Tyler.
I know the reason that Hamilton is getting a rough ride, (but less rough than Ricco) from some.
He's the boy who cried wolf, in his initial defence.
His twin ploy was ludicrous and may explain why there is a degree of sceptism, towards
his use of this depression medication, if not his depression, per se.

Ball needs to take flack, IMO. In Velonews today, I see RR have sacked Creed for under achievement. Further sackings may follow. (if the team survives)
He said he unduly pressurised Hamilton.
What then is this? Further stimulation for the riders to push the boundaries.

For me, it's time to let Hamilton go, for him to get on with his life.

markwalker

But Blaze, if you believe pretty much everyone did it...then you'd not be so annoyed at Tyler ...the anger at hamilton is premised on the assumption that he cheated the peloton when we know the peloton all did the same as him. Therefore, it's not fair to abuse Tyler Hamilton alone to excess. I don't want his gold medal to go to Ekimov or Julich...I don't have huge faith in them. Gaummont has made specific allegations about Livingston and Julich at Coifidis which were never investigated. Nobody is getting angry at them. How many of these people are thanking their lucky stars they dodged the bullets Tyler didn't

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id= ... /jun03news[/quote]

Dave, people like Hamilton annoy me not because they did anything that a number of people would have been doing but the way they position themselves as persecuted or unfairly treated or as someone that deserves sepcial consieration or treatment in some pr attemept to excuse or validate their behaviour or sidestep the rules by which the game is played. Frankly Hamilton is a whining loser.

He may or may not be ill and i may or may not in time believe that the masking agent came from an over the counter depression rememdy. Given his involvment with Puerto, his ban for blood doping, previous work history and the fact that hes happy to call himself former Olympic time trial champion I know for a fact that his perspective on acceptable behaviour is different than mine.

I suspect that his alleged depression, his mothers cancer, his dogs death, his missing twin etc will cloud many peoples view and Im sure there will be more "believers" with deciples screaming that unless you show huge compassion and understanding you are somehow vicious or nasty or whatever else ive been called in the last couple of days. Ive said before that i hope he gets better and i do. Ill say again that i think he and others like him shold not be in the peleoton.

I suspect he will appologise though. Just before the book / film deal. Probably on Oprah.

iainf72

I think it was one of the guys who developed the blood transfusion test who said Tyler's challenge was excellent for the test. The robust counter argument, even if it was wierd, was something the test should stand up to, and it did. Especially as it was the first case.

And thank goodness he was American and the USADA persued it properly. Imagine if Vino had been the first person bust? The Kazak ADA would've said "what happened", Vino would say "too much blood in my legs, obviously faulty test" and he's be right back.

missingmillar

My view is that it depends on how much you believe Tyler, he said that he took the medication for his depression not for the alleged performance enhancement (even though he knew it is on the banned list).

Doping has been part of the pro-cycling culture for so long that I'm sure we'll hear of other offenders, whatever their reason. What annoys me most is that it makes me question the talent of those I used to workship as a kid and got me into this into the first place.

markwalker

missingmillar wrote:

My view is that it depends on how much you believe Tyler, he said that he took the medication for his depression not for the alleged performance enhancement (even though he knew it is on the banned list).

Doping has been part of the pro-cycling culture for so long that I'm sure we'll hear of other offenders, whatever their reason. What annoys me most is that it makes me question the talent of those I used to workship as a kid and got me into this into the first place.

Quite, the little sh 1t undermines a brilliant sport.

Kléber

I don't know if we'll ever see it but I'd like to know the links between EPO and depression. Many riders who have abused the blood boosting hormone seem to have come away with depression but this could also be just the size of the bunch using EPO, that amongst the many riders there will be a small share who have mental illness, like the rest of the population.

flattythehurdler

Kléber wrote:

I don't know if we'll ever see it but I'd like to know the links between EPO and depression. Many riders who have abused the blood boosting hormone seem to have come away with depression but this could also be just the size of the bunch using EPO, that amongst the many riders there will be a small share who have mental illness, like the rest of the population.

I suspect it is the sport, it's unrelenting ferocity, it's inability to set up the sufferers of that ferocity financially in the majority of cases, and the type of person it attracts, who have with the will and the courage to suffer repeatedly in it's unique way, rather than the epo.

markwalker

Kléber wrote:

I don't know if we'll ever see it but I'd like to know the links between EPO and depression. Many riders who have abused the blood boosting hormone seem to have come away with depression but this could also be just the size of the bunch using EPO, that amongst the many riders there will be a small share who have mental illness, like the rest of the population.

My thoughts exactly and if not the epo the stimulants. Or maybe its the cocktail effect. Anyway its hardly a leap of faith to suspect that mental issues could be triggered by any or all of those. After all it wouldnt be the first drug that does that.

iainf72

Kléber wrote:

I don't know if we'll ever see it but I'd like to know the links between EPO and depression.

Do keep up

http://www.scientificblogging.com/news_ ... depressant

dave_1

markwalker wrote:

missingmillar wrote:

My view is that it depends on how much you believe Tyler, he said that he took the medication for his depression not for the alleged performance enhancement (even though he knew it is on the banned list).

Doping has been part of the pro-cycling culture for so long that I'm sure we'll hear of other offenders, whatever their reason. What annoys me most is that it makes me question the talent of those I used to workship as a kid and got me into this into the first place.

Quite, the little sh 1t undermines a brilliant sport.

t...it ain't a brilliant sport and hundreds undermined it. IMO hundreds were + and undermined it...

markwalker

Dave_1 wrote:

markwalker wrote:

missingmillar wrote:

My view is that it depends on how much you believe Tyler, he said that he took the medication for his depression not for the alleged performance enhancement (even though he knew it is on the banned list).

Doping has been part of the pro-cycling culture for so long that I'm sure we'll hear of other offenders, whatever their reason. What annoys me most is that it makes me question the talent of those I used to workship as a kid and got me into this into the first place.

Quite, the little sh 1t undermines a brilliant sport.

t...it ain't a brilliant sport and hundreds undermined it. IMO hundreds were + and undermined it...

Dave, Im begining to think you might be a bit of a troll and after calling me Blaze too

dave_1

markwalker wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

markwalker wrote:

missingmillar wrote:

My view is that it depends on how much you believe Tyler, he said that he took the medication for his depression not for the alleged performance enhancement (even though he knew it is on the banned list).

Doping has been part of the pro-cycling culture for so long that I'm sure we'll hear of other offenders, whatever their reason. What annoys me most is that it makes me question the talent of those I used to workship as a kid and got me into this into the first place.

Quite, the little sh 1t undermines a brilliant sport.

t...it ain't a brilliant sport and hundreds undermined it. IMO hundreds were + and undermined it...

Dave, Im begining to think you might be a bit of a troll and after calling me Blaze too

If I called you blaze it was inattention , there're hundreds of riders as guilty as tyler h

markwalker

well there might well be hundreds as guilty as th when it comes to using ped or methods but its the way hes behaved since being busted that causes long term damage to the sport.

I think we all know that every sport has cheats, but when a guy is found out and he causes a long running sore its a problem. Yes he should be dealt with but quickly and without prolonging the affair. To that extent i have some sympathy (but dont agree) with Omerta in that it does serve to avoid long term commercial damage to the sport. Note that i dont condone drug taking, just when someone is busted they do the long walk without turning it into a farce.

dave_1

markwalker wrote:

well there might well be hundreds as guilty as th when it comes to using ped or methods but its the way hes behaved since being busted that causes long term damage to the sport.

I think we all know that every sport has cheats, but when a guy is found out and he causes a long running sore its a problem. Yes he should be dealt with but quickly and without prolonging the affair. To that extent i have some sympathy (but dont agree) with Omerta in that it does serve to avoid long term commercial damage to the sport. Note that i dont condone drug taking, just when someone is busted they do the long walk without turning it into a farce.

no mights about it...team wide doping regimens , 5 different blood doping rings that were an open secret, op puerto. TH caused no running sore that I can remember other than he was sometimes in the news and also has in reality had a 4 year ban from pro tour level racing...he was never in the headlines. Everyone has the right to deny. His choice. I agree he should be banned for life unless he finally spits in the soup bowl...I believe he was depressed and made recent decisions with poor judgement caused by that...

le_patron

not sure if this article has been linked, interesting theme

missingmillar

Has anyone else read the Death of Pantani?

Just finished it - thoroughly depressing read but fascinating insight into what seems to have been a drug-riddled rider since before he went pro.

Do you think any of our current 'heroes'will turn out to be as chemically charged with hindsight?

teagar

missingmillar wrote:

Has anyone else read the Death of Pantani?

Just finished it - thoroughly depressing read but fascinating insight into what seems to have been a drug-riddled rider since before he went pro.

Do you think any of our current 'heroes'will turn out to be as chemically charged with hindsight?

Probably.

Didn't stop me being very chuffed when my girlfriend bought me a mercatone uno '98 replica jersey!

Arkibal

missingmillar wrote:

Has anyone else read the Death of Pantani?

Just finished it - thoroughly depressing read but fascinating insight into what seems to have been a drug-riddled rider since before he went pro.

Do you think any of our current 'heroes'will turn out to be as chemically charged with hindsight?

sure hope not.