Hamilton Positive

enjoy_the_ride

disgruntledgoat wrote:

enjoy_the_ride wrote:

The measure of a man (woman) is his (her) ability to admit they got it wrong and apologise. Go on I dare you, be as quick to say you called it wrong as you were hasty to celebrate the guys demise.

Rant over.

That being the case, where is Hamilton's ability to admit he called it wrong when he started blaming his unborn twin etc for cheating at sport?

Fair point and as others have said, if Hamilton has truly reached rock bottom (OK I've just re-read that, no pun intended) part of his healing process should be to admit to previous wrongdoings.

claudb

I'm pleased to see at least some sympathy for TH here and, just to balance out some of the most vile of responses, I felt I had to respond. I agree with the "Cry for Help" theory. Yes he was a cheat and a liar but the man is ill and if any of you have ANY experience of Depression then I'm sure you will find some respect for his well being as a person. After all his previous doping exploits I do, though, find it ironic that he has now been done for an 'over the counter' product which is deemed to have little or no performance-enhancing effect. As with Pantani, I feel we are talking about a fragile character here and I for one (although welcoming his departure from the sport) sincerely hope he gets his health in order.
Cases like this are human tragedies and they do not just happen to cheats !!!

dave_1

claudb wrote:

I'm pleased to see at least some sympathy for TH here and, just to balance out some of the most vile of responses, I felt I had to respond. I agree with the "Cry for Help" theory. Yes he was a cheat and a liar but the man is ill and if any of you have ANY experience of Depression then I'm sure you will find some respect for his well being as a person. After all his previous doping exploits I do, though, find it ironic that he has now been done for an 'over the counter' product which is deemed to have little or no performance-enhancing effect. As with Pantani, I feel we are talking about a fragile character here and I for one (although welcoming his departure from the sport) sincerely hope he gets his health in order.
Cases like this are human tragedies and they do not just happen to cheats !!!

+1 I'd guess living a lie has eventually told on him, then heap personal problems, marriage, family illness etc...and the constant stigma...my guess it has taken a toll. So, best he leaves the sport. I don't regard him as much worse than many he raced aside and am sorry he got himself into a corner through denial with this the result. If he comes clean on his career, he should not be banned for life...any psyhcotherapists will advocate a patient doesn't live a lie so there is hope if he is seeking help, that he will explain. SO long as he keeps omerta, he should be kept away from all cycle racing

iainf72

Dave_1 wrote:

you sound relatively forgiving there Iainf. I believe Tyler is not an idiot, holds an MBA pre dating his career at the top. I feel for old Roadrash Dunc though.

I'll pass you on your regards.

I do feel for him. He's taking a lot of flack for the sins of a generation. Sure, he told some porkies and some of them may have been insane but I can understand it. He went down a route so he stuck by it. Possibly because he is a nice guy people invested emotionally in him and felt extra let down, who knows.

Perhaps he wanted to get caught to do a quasi-confession? Who know. Perhaps he just feels the need to say "yes, I did it" to move past 04.

liversedge

Depression is a curse. I was signed off last year and have sympathy for Tyler. There is a massive taboo about depression and so few people really know what it is. It is the curse of the strong.

I really hope Tyler can turn things round and end up with this being a positive event in his life.

pb21

Dave_1 wrote:

claudb wrote:

I'm pleased to see at least some sympathy for TH here and, just to balance out some of the most vile of responses, I felt I had to respond. I agree with the "Cry for Help" theory. Yes he was a cheat and a liar but the man is ill and if any of you have ANY experience of Depression then I'm sure you will find some respect for his well being as a person. After all his previous doping exploits I do, though, find it ironic that he has now been done for an 'over the counter' product which is deemed to have little or no performance-enhancing effect. As with Pantani, I feel we are talking about a fragile character here and I for one (although welcoming his departure from the sport) sincerely hope he gets his health in order.
Cases like this are human tragedies and they do not just happen to cheats !!!

+1 I'd guess living a lie has eventually told on him, then heap personal problems, marriage, family illness etc...and the constant stigma...my guess it has taken a toll. So, best he leaves the sport. I don't regard him as much worse than many he raced aside and am sorry he got himself into a corner through denial with this the result. If he comes clean on his career, he should not be banned for life...any psyhcotherapists will advocate a patient doesn't live a lie so there is hope if he is seeking help, that he will explain. SO long as he keeps omerta, he should be kept away from all cycle racing

+2

dave_1

iainf72 wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

you sound relatively forgiving there Iainf. I believe Tyler is not an idiot, holds an MBA pre dating his career at the top. I feel for old Roadrash Dunc though.

I'll pass you on your regards.

I do feel for him. He's taking a lot of flack for the sins of a generation. Sure, he told some porkies and some of them may have been insane but I can understand it. He went down a route so he stuck by it. Possibly because he is a nice guy people invested emotionally in him and felt extra let down, who knows.

Perhaps he wanted to get caught to do a quasi-confession? Who know. Perhaps he just feels the need to say "yes, I did it" to move past 04.

my thoughts too. Power of the subconscious, of really not wanting what you have-an act everytime he cycles...and would any guy want to be shown up in front of their family and friends as a dirty cheat and liar...can see how he stuck to the denial path...though the Fuentes faxes pretty much guarantee shame. I'll bet a few guys in the top 2 teams, and an italian coach will be bricking it wondering if Tyler will turn. Any trained therapist will encourage a patient to open up, reveal, as a way to become an authentic person...so any cure for depression is confession or continued medications and shortened life by one's use of substances or by their own hand

markwalker

Hes still a loser though

afx237vi

Lionel Birnie thinks Tyler is pulling a fast one:

Annoyed to see a serious issue like depression used by Tyler. Diagnosed in 03, took medicine in 09, didn't apply for TUE? Yeah that adds up

Having read this thread, I now don't know what to think. My "LOL" reaction on page 1 was maybe a bit premature, before I knew about the depression angle. I was laughing at the denial, the bronchitis excuse, the weird "no comment" from RR etc...

If... IF... he really does have severe depression, then I have some sympathy for him. But as Birnie says... why would you take something that would obviously make you fail a test? Tyler himself knows it contained a banned substance?

If he was that messed up and wanted to get out of cycling that bad, why not just retire? Presumably a RR contract is worth crap-all to get out of... Ball gets rid of riders whenever he feels like it, Tyler should just have told him to stick it.

I would now like to see Tyler unload everything. He owes nothing to anyone. Cycling chews up riders like him and spits them out. Do a Kimmage, write a book, make a packet.

markwalker

afx237vi wrote:

Lionel Birnie thinks Tyler is pulling a fast one:

Annoyed to see a serious issue like depression used by Tyler. Diagnosed in 03, took medicine in 09, didn't apply for TUE? Yeah that adds up

Having read this thread, I now don't know what to think. My "LOL" reaction on page 1 was maybe a bit premature, before I knew about the depression angle. I was laughing at the denial, the bronchitis excuse, the weird "no comment" from RR etc...

If... IF... he really does have severe depression, then I have some sympathy for him. But as Birnie says... why would you take something that would obviously make you fail a test? Tyler himself knows it contained a banned substance?

If he was that messed up and wanted to get out of cycling that bad, why not just retire? Presumably a RR contract is worth crap-all to get out of... Ball gets rid of riders whenever he feels like it, Tyler should just have told him to stick it.

I would now like to see Tyler unload everything. He owes nothing to anyone. Cycling chews up riders like him and spits them out. Do a Kimmage, write a book, make a packet.

Quite of course hes taking everyone for a ride. Facts are facts and it doenst add up obviously hes played the sympathy card leaving any questioning or ridicule or lack of compassion to look like an extreme response.

FACT yet again the ugly (fact) short (fact) drug cheat (fact)is looking for sympathy.

hes a loser.
Hes a cheat.
Hes got a lot of people not wanting to face up to facts, and we only have to read these posts to see hes played it well so far. Hes not retiring; hes guilty of deliberate substance abuse wether you just look at the test results or concoct a theory of him wanting to be found out. Hes a cheat. He cheated his way to an Olympic gold and many people believed enough of his victim lies that they supported him financially and by shouting down disenters.

The compassion shown here tonight is misplaced and weak, exactly the sort of thing that people like tyler "convicted cheat and serial substance abuser" Hamilton use.

Kléber

liversedge wrote:

Depression is a curse. I was signed off last year and have sympathy for Tyler. There is a massive taboo about depression and so few people really know what it is. It is the curse of the strong.

I really hope Tyler can turn things round and end up with this being a positive event in his life.

How do we know he has depression? He's just mentioned it as the reason why he used a "herbal remedy", this is not a medical diagnosis. Be careful, he's played many people along before. Someone really in this state would be getting medical help, not herbs.

iainf72

Kléber wrote:

How do we know he has depression? He's just mentioned it as the reason why he used a "herbal remedy", this is not a medical diagnosis. Be careful, he's played many people along before. Someone really in this state would be getting medical help, not herbs.

Humans are wierd

Some will turn to medical help, some to imaginary sky gods, some to "herbal" remedies.

We'll never know the truth.

iainf72

markwalker wrote:

The compassion shown here tonight is misplaced and weak, exactly the sort of thing that people like tyler "convicted cheat and serial substance abuser" Hamilton use.

Sorry mate but you're wrong.

He's a guy who liked riding a bike and eventually did it for a living. He made some choices, did some PED's / blood doping and got caught (the word "drugs" doesn't mean he was down the 'dilly on a Friday night turning tricks for old men) He then told a story and stuck with it. The reason we all know a lot about it is because he spoke English.

To quote Prentice Steffen

The bad guys, like Armstrong, dope, and the good guys, like Hamilton, dope too. There's always a moment of wavering, as if, all of a sudden, they have no choice."

Trying to understand his motivation for this is interesting. If it's so obvious he'd get caught, why do it?

90% of people on this forum, if they were pro's in the last 10 years, would've doped.

calvjones

Wot Iain said. I'd rather show misplaced compassion and be 'weak' than be such a hardfaced bastrd as to potentially deny rightful sympathy to one in need. So he cheated in bike races & lied after. Big effing deal.

Welsh, not English.

Clemson Cycling

The pictures of Tyler Hamilton really look like life has worn him out and I really feel bad for him. This is a guy that did the same thing all the other greats of the time were doing and had to pay the consequences. I wish him the best and hope he can put the pieces back together. This is a good guy who has done a lot (he has a pretty cool foundation that works to improve the lives of those with MS). He is a tragedy of the steroid era.

micron

If Hamilton is genuinely depressed I hope he gets the help he needs. However, this is a man who has lied and denied in a way that makes Virenque look almost principled.

LangerDan

Kléber wrote:

How do we know he has depression? He's just mentioned it as the reason why he used a "herbal remedy", this is not a medical diagnosis. Be careful, he's played many people along before. Someone really in this state would be getting medical help, not herbs.

A doctor in Boulder said he'd been treating him for depression, anxiety and sleep disorders for the past two years.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

iainf72

Interesting link from CFA's Twitter

http://www.scientificblogging.com/news_ ... depressant

A couple of the Manzano quotes he's got are interesting too

Jeff Jones

phips wrote:

LangerDan wrote:

A doctor in Boulder said he'd been treating him for depression, anxiety and sleep disorders for the past two years.

"Dr. Charles Welch, at Mass General hospital in Boston diagnosed Hamilton with clinical depression in 2003. He was prescribed Celexa as an anti-depressant for the next six years. According to Hamilton, he took amounts double the prescribed dosage for two weeks in January when his mental health declined further after his mother was diagnosed with cancer."

I seem to recall reading at some point today that he then abruptly stopped taking the Celexa. It's an SSRI - you don't stop taking that stuff suddenly. I've seen people do that, and the side affects are not funny.

It's in the next par:

Severe side effects caused him to stop taking the prescribed medication at the end of January. According to Hamilton, his mental health continued to decline without prescription medication during training camp where he purchased Mitamins Advanced Formula for Depression.

More on Celexa (Citalopram) here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citalopram - side effects are nasty, as are the effects caused by sudden withdrawal.

Given his family history and current life situation, his story checks out. But I can understand the scepticism of some, given his history. Is he the boy who cried wolf?

It'll take a couple of months for the full facts to come out, as USADA are treating this as a normal doping case.

Murr X

I have personal experience with celexa (Citalopram). In general it is not a drug athletes want to be taking. Like others I had to stop its use when racing as it caused pretty major side effects.

I put on about 7-8kg even though I was eating less, my recovery was extremely poor - 2 training rides per week was just too much to handle and also my sex drive became non existant.

BTW, I also have very low DHEA levels too. I have had the levels checked several times within the past 10 years or so.

iainf72

Jeff Jones wrote:

Given his family history and current life situation, his story checks out. But I can understand the scepticism of some, given his history. Is he the boy who cried wolf?

I'd agree. People seem to think everything he says is a lie but nothing is ever that black and white.

Quoting Vaughters

Managers, fans, press, everyone needs to look at what they ask of riders. Think about it. You loved Tyler Hamilton getting fourth in the Tour and winning a stage with a broken collarbone. Think about that. What message does that send? He got the job done. He didn't let anyone down.

And now? Maybe he did make a ton of money, but believe me, most of his motivation was to not let down his family, his fans, his sponsors, the press and on and on. He didn't want anyone to be disappointed in him. He wanted you guys to love him and he wanted to be the nice guy. He wanted to 'get his job done'.

He wanted to make you guys happy and cheer! I know - that's what I wanted. And now? Tyler is still the same guy.

People and the press need to remember, athletes tend to be very self-conscious and they want to do what makes the crowd happy. Don't criticise and push hard and then act shocked when doping scandals erupt.

Athletes are humans - entertainers - and very fragile humans at that. Think of them as shivering greyhounds on a cold day. All they want is to go fast so they can see the smile on your face.

micron

Vaughters should stop making self serving little speeches about what pressure the fans put on riders, stop dropping coy little hints and come clean about what he knows. I would suggest that it's a culture that views doping as a norm, as a necessity, reinforced by DSes and other support personnel who have been culpable that helps to perpetuate doping in the sport, not fans who turn out to grab free stuff from the caravan, have a picnic and see a bike race.

iainf72

I agree Micron however I do think his point here remains valid from a human perspective.

Kléber

This isn't a black and white doping case. They never are I suppose but this seems to be one about illness first and perhaps stupidity second but if it was a herbal remedy, few riders or fans have been cheated, this is hardly some organised distribution of chilled blood.

flattythehurdler

Clemson Cycling wrote:

The pictures of Tyler Hamilton really look like life has worn him out and I really feel bad for him. This is a guy that did the same thing all the other greats of the time were doing and had to pay the consequences. I wish him the best and hope he can put the pieces back together. This is a good guy who has done a lot (he has a pretty cool foundation that works to improve the lives of those with MS). He is a tragedy of the steroid era.

+1 Well said. I wish him all the best. He can come and stay with me (if he promises to bring me out cycling) anytime. Clinical depression and rational, meticulous "preparation" do not mix easily I wouldn't have thought. He seems a very likeable individual, was undoubtedly a very courageous rider, and was certainly exposed to pressures that many of us would succumb to. Confessing all hasn't made things easy for anyone in cycling to date. I don't blame him, the repulsive way the omerta seems to work. Good Luck to him.

dave_1

Vaughters has a point and Tyler's explanation seems reasonable. The omerta is quite a pressure and I bet he has had, does have, pressure on him to maintain that. he's been singled out for 4 years now when practically every sod had their hand in the cookie jar too....a carrot and stick approach is needed by USADA, a lifeban or a 2 year ban in exchange for information about the teams and Drs

dave_1

markwalker wrote:

Hes still a loser though

No he isn't. his palmares has as much credibility as any of them...prove any of them didn't blood dope in that era. He protects current riders and management...you have either high expectations or you've had so little personal success in life you are ecstatic at seeing others get that taken away-makes you feel better. Ban TH for life unless he talks...blaming him for what hundreds did every season IMO is pathetic

afx237vi

Clemson Cycling wrote:

The pictures of Tyler Hamilton really look like life has worn him out and I really feel bad for him. This is a guy that did the same thing all the other greats of the time were doing and had to pay the consequences. I wish him the best and hope he can put the pieces back together. This is a good guy who has done a lot (he has a pretty cool foundation that works to improve the lives of those with MS). He is a tragedy of the steroid era.

"Tragedy" is a bit strong. Valentino Fois was a tragedy, Tyler still has an opportunity to get his life back on track and make something better of his life. Hopefully he will get the support that enables him to do so. And I hope it's away from guys like Ball and Pevenage.

markwalker

Dave_1 wrote:

markwalker wrote:

Hes still a loser though

No he isn't. his palmares has as much credibility as any of them...prove any of them didn't blood dope in that era. He protects current riders and management...you have either high expectations or you've had so little personal success in life you are ecstatic at seeing others get that taken away-makes you feel better. Ban TH for life unless he talks...blaming him for what hundreds did every season IMO is pathetic

Dave, Its fair to say that i have some level of satisfaction but not pleasure in whats happened to Tyler. If he has a mental illnes then i hope he gets better but my personal view is that he has no place in professional sport.

In terms of the credibility of his Palmares, as far as Im aware there is no other rider with an olympic gold in his possesion despite failing a blood test. He only kept it because the B sample was damaged. You might claim that he was not therefore guilty but very shortly after another test found him guilty of the same thing and he started his campaign to prove his innocence which included chimeras and all sorts of other rubbish. Hes been found with steroids now and so i would suggest that not only his palmares but his whole career has less credibilty than most of them. Consequently I stand by my view that Hamilton is indeed a loser.

His i believe campaign and PR activities are what i found offensive. I have similar feelings about Lance and Landis.

From your comments I see you also believe you have the power of clairvoyance and know what im thinking or feeling. For your information you do not.

Best regards
Mark