WADA wants the purto bags
Comments
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Kléber wrote:Bassons was "jacking" with altitude tents by the way.
He won a stage of the Dauphine Libere, the final stage in 1999. The overall that year was won by Vinokourov. i]
Bassons tried to use a tent and he didnt raise his crit by one single point.... He had a 38% at a race that year, and he wouldnt even take iron because he was paranoid the doctor would just give him EPO injections instead.... it got to the point where he piled into a gate at the side of the road anemic and over-reached.
1. Alexandre Vinokourov (Kaz) Casino 30.25.19
2. Jonathan Vaughters (USA) US Postal Service 1.14
3. Wladimir Belli (Ita) Festina-Lotus 3.48
4 Joseba Beloki Dorronsoro (Spa) Euskatel-Euskadi 3.57
5. Stéphane Heulot (Fra) La Française des Jeux 4.35
...........................................................................................
45. Christophe Bassons (Fra) La Française des Jeux 40.09
He was able to ride clear because.... he was 45 minutes down. Lance, wanted to chase down Bassons though. :? Even though USPO didnt have a sprinter.
Vaughters didnt want it and it did not happen.
Read "From Lance To Landis" by David Walsh.
http://www.amazon.com/Lance-Landis-Insi ... 034549962X
Its a great read.0 -
KKspeeder wrote:
And.... Evans & his junior company at AIS were jacked through the roof if they tested at 93 VO2 maxes.... No way he has that un-doped at 17 years old or however old.... ANd the Australian Juniors were having group injections of horse-growth hormones & other heavy sh*t at 14-19 years old in their government funded public-housing units.....
KK, this proves you are not on the up and up. We conversed in pm's on Cyclingforums, and I did support you there.
But the VO testing is in Canberra. The shooting gallery in del Monte, Adelaide.
You also should know, that it is easier for a young rider, to have a higher VO2, they normally reside.
And I don't know how you get that Lemond can test above 90, but no one else can. You are a fool.
Anyone can test above 90 clean if Lemond can. Indeed, they will be off the curve, but you can still test clean. Wont win you the Tour tho.
You should know this.0 -
NOT ANYBODY..... A total FREAK; 1 in F-ing 150,000 guys can get a VO2 max above 90 without crit jacking.....
NO WAY with the histroy that AIS has that they are not jacked.... Its a very caniving-sick way to run a program, jack the juniors and make them appear talented so that people think they are clean when they are pros; based on their high VO2 maxes as 17-year olds..... If he doped he's win the Tour multiple times. There's no way a professional is not going to dope and Looose the Tour de France. That would be asinine... If I had my way there would be total hemoglobin testing on all Grand Tour riders and un-jacked VO2 max testing on all the riders.... But corruptions and a level field dont go hand in hand....
Yes LeMond was a clean freak and he had a over-inflated Ego.... He did not understand the power of EPO because he would not dope and this was right at the time that it was starting so it was likely confusing to him .... He figured, "I;m Greg LeMond with my F-ing freak VO2 max, I'm going to beat them and their drugs like I always have."
Yeah right Greg he he he:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLiusWwY ... 1&index=300 -
I reckon there is doping at the Canberra AIS, Gennadi Touretski the swim coach was proof. And del Monte the Adelaide cycling AIS has had problems.
But assuming Walker, a 17yo from Northcote Cycling Club was "jacking", you are shit for brains KK. Why is Lemond the only rider who can own a 90 VO2?
Junior cycling in Europe does have a PED culture. Junior cycling in geographies outside the cycling heartland, I would assume doe not. Now, if the kids go and race as juniors and live in Belgium for a year as 17/18 yo's, like Jeremy Yates. Sure, they can be doping. And I know their are roids in high schools in the US.
High school in Aus, I reckon there would be weed, ice/meth and that is about it. Hardcore gyms there are roids. Australia does not have weights gyms in highschools, unless a few well provisioned privated schools are counted.
Nope, they dont institutionally dope 17yos in Australia. They look the other way, and act blind, to freelance doping, if they have suspicions. But they dont go and institutionally dope athletes. But there is probably doping on an equivalent scale as the US aths/cycling/swimming. But there is not a doping program for the juniors.
Someone needs to have your arse kicked for this bigotted shit you are promoting.
I am for Lemond. I am for Casar, Mcgee, Moncoutie, Gilbert, and the other nameless riders competing clean.
Lemond is not the only rider who owns a 93 VO.
A 21 yo Australian tter, just finished 9 seconds behind Rogers at Nationals, who set the course record in that ride. He is not jacking. Rogers has a history and was part of the Freiburg transfusions though.
So you have a young rider, beating an ex world champ, who has done the transfusions that Ullrich, Kloden, Sink, all did.
He did not test well in Varese Mapei lab neither.
This proves that the human capacities are improving. And it is two decades on from Lemond.
And the VO indicator, for performance, has been superceded, and is outdated. You have not been following your research, just parroting Lemond and his quotes on his own credibility because of his VO, and that aint a medal. The phsyiology science has been updated,
See this, for what clean humans, virtually untrained, are capable of:
Kenyan cyclists rode a l'Alpe d'Huez timetrial last year, in 42 and 43 minutes respectively. Ma, I believe, is from 2000 metre altitude in Qinghai, and may have genetic predisposition to good oxygen carrying capacity. See the article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/20 ... e.cycling1
Now see the timetrial at the Tour, and yes, Moncoutie is the first clean athlete I assume.
1 Lance Armstrong (USA) US Postal p/b Berry Floor 39.41 (23.44 km/h)
2 Jan Ullrich (Ger) T-Mobile Team 1.01
3 Andreas Klöden (Ger) T-Mobile Team 1.41
4 Jose Azevedo (Por) US Postal p/b Berry Floor 1.45
5 Santos Gonzalez (Spa) Phonak Hearing Systems 2.11
6 Giuseppe Guerini (Ita) T-Mobile Team
7 Vladimir Karpets (Rus) Illes Balears - Banesto 2.15
8 Ivan Basso (Ita) Team CSC 2.23
9 David Moncoutié (Fra) Cofidis - Le Crédit Par Téléphone
10 Carlos Sastre (Spa) Team CSC 2.27
11 Stéphane Goubert (Fra) AG2R Prévoyance 2.33
12 Michael Rogers (Aus) Quick Step-Davitamon 2.34
13 José Enrique Gutierrez (Spa) Phonak Hearing Systems 3.04
14 Oscar Pereiro (Spa) Phonak Hearing Systems 3.06
15 Marcos Serrano Rodriguez (Spa) Liberty Seguros 3.09
16 Georg Totschnig (Aut) Gerolsteiner 3.15
17 Sandy Casar (Fra) Fdjeux.com 3.19
18 Mikel Astarloza Chaurreau (Spa) AG2R Prévoyance 3.25
19 Juan Miguel Mercado (Spa) Quick Step-Davitamon
20 Christophe Moreau (Fra) Crédit Agricole
21 Floyd Landis (USA) US Postal p/b Berry Floor 3.35
22 Axel Merckx (Bel) Lotto-Domo 3.40
23 Gilberto Simoni (Ita) Saeco
24 Francisco Mancebo Pérez (Spa) Illes Balears - Banesto 3.41
25 Sylvain Chavanel (Fra) Brioches La Boulangère 3.43
26 Michele Scarponi (Ita) Domina Vacanze 3.53
27 Pietro Caucchioli (Ita) Alessio-Bianchi 3.58
28 Laurent Brochard (Fra) AG2R Prévoyance 4.03
29 Levi Leipheimer (USA) Rabobank 4.06
So, one of the Kenyans rode the Alpe d'Huez in the same time as Moncoutie. The other rode in the same time as Landis, and both were faster than Landis and Leipheimer and Mancebo.0 -
forearms Van Petegem wrote:I reckon there is doping at the Canberra AIS, Gennadi Touretski the swim coach was proof. And del Monte the Adelaide cycling AIS has had problems.
But assuming Walker, a 17yo from Northcote Cycling Club was "jacking", you are shoot for brains KK. Why is Lemond the only rider who can own a 90 VO2?
Junior cycling in Europe does have a PED culture. Junior cycling in geographies outside the cycling heartland, I would assume doe not. Now, if the kids go and race as juniors and live in Belgium for a year as 17/18 yo's, like Jeremy Yates. Sure, they can be doping. And I know their are roids in high schools in the US.
High school in Aus, I reckon there would be weed, ice/meth and that is about it. Hardcore gyms there are roids. Australia does not have weights gyms in highschools, unless a few well provisioned privated schools are counted.
Nope, they dont institutionally dope 17yos in Australia. They look the other way, and act blind, to freelance doping, if they have suspicions. But they dont go and institutionally dope athletes. But there is probably doping on an equivalent scale as the US aths/cycling/swimming. But there is not a doping program for the juniors.
Someone needs to have your ars* kicked for this bigotted shoot you are promoting.
I am for Lemond. I am for Casar, Mcgee, Moncoutie, Gilbert, and the other nameless riders competing clean.
Lemond is not the only rider who owns a 93 VO.
A 21 yo Australian tter, just finished 9 seconds behind Rogers at Nationals, who set the course record in that ride. He is not jacking. Rogers has a history and was part of the Freiburg transfusions though.
So you have a young rider, beating an ex world champ, who has done the transfusions that Ullrich, Kloden, Sink, all did.
He did not test well in Varese Mapei lab neither.
This proves that the human capacities are improving. And it is two decades on from Lemond.
And the VO indicator, for performance, has been superceded, and is outdated. You have not been following your research, just parroting Lemond and his quotes on his own credibility because of his VO, and that aint a medal. The phsyiology science has been updated,
See this, for what clean humans, virtually untrained, are capable of:
Kenyan cyclists rode a l'Alpe d'Huez timetrial last year, in 42 and 43 minutes respectively. Ma, I believe, is from 2000 metre altitude in Qinghai, and may have genetic predisposition to good oxygen carrying capacity. See the article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/20 ... e.cycling1
Now see the timetrial at the Tour, and yes, Moncoutie is the first clean athlete I assume.
1 Lance Armstrong (USA) US Postal p/b Berry Floor 39.41 (23.44 km/h)
2 Jan Ullrich (Ger) T-Mobile Team 1.01
3 Andreas Klöden (Ger) T-Mobile Team 1.41
4 Jose Azevedo (Por) US Postal p/b Berry Floor 1.45
5 Santos Gonzalez (Spa) Phonak Hearing Systems 2.11
6 Giuseppe Guerini (Ita) T-Mobile Team
7 Vladimir Karpets (Rus) Illes Balears - Banesto 2.15
8 Ivan Basso (Ita) Team CSC 2.23
9 David Moncoutié (Fra) Cofidis - Le Crédit Par Téléphone
10 Carlos Sastre (Spa) Team CSC 2.27
11 Stéphane Goubert (Fra) AG2R Prévoyance 2.33
12 Michael Rogers (Aus) Quick Step-Davitamon 2.34
13 José Enrique Gutierrez (Spa) Phonak Hearing Systems 3.04
14 Oscar Pereiro (Spa) Phonak Hearing Systems 3.06
15 Marcos Serrano Rodriguez (Spa) Liberty Seguros 3.09
16 Georg Totschnig (Aut) Gerolsteiner 3.15
17 Sandy Casar (Fra) Fdjeux.com 3.19
18 Mikel Astarloza Chaurreau (Spa) AG2R Prévoyance 3.25
19 Juan Miguel Mercado (Spa) Quick Step-Davitamon
20 Christophe Moreau (Fra) Crédit Agricole
21 Floyd Landis (USA) US Postal p/b Berry Floor 3.35
22 Axel Merckx (Bel) Lotto-Domo 3.40
23 Gilberto Simoni (Ita) Saeco
24 Francisco Mancebo Pérez (Spa) Illes Balears - Banesto 3.41
25 Sylvain Chavanel (Fra) Brioches La Boulangère 3.43
26 Michele Scarponi (Ita) Domina Vacanze 3.53
27 Pietro Caucchioli (Ita) Alessio-Bianchi 3.58
28 Laurent Brochard (Fra) AG2R Prévoyance 4.03
29 Levi Leipheimer (USA) Rabobank 4.06
So, one of the Kenyans rode the Alpe d'Huez in the same time as Moncoutie. The other rode in the same time as Landis, and both were faster than Landis and Leipheimer and Mancebo.
When Floyd Landis was 19, he scored a 90 VO2 max.
Lets look at those Alp D'Huez times from 2004. Floyd Landis who finished 21st; three minutes and 35 seconds down on the stage was blood doped. He rode the stage hard and Lance even became angry that he did so by dumping his next 800cc whole blood-refill down the toilet later in that Tour.
The overal TT time is not a justifiable indicator of the actual time for the climb however. Lance's official time for the Alp D' Huez climb was listed at 37' 36". So one can assume that Moncoutié rode about 40 minutes flat for the climb, perhaps 39:30. Landis did 41 minutes or so.
What I find interesting is that Fingon rode a 41:50 in 1989, and LeMond rode a 42:15 or so after being dropped. The two chased each other the whole way up. A TT might have allowed some time gains, BUT not much considering they chased eachother the whole way up the mountain. These times were done without EPO or blood doping if you can say the least.
But.... Those African runners (cyclists now) that came and rode Alp D'Huez were jacked on EPO. There is no reasone for the marathoners from that country not to be because there is not drug testing (anti doping) in Africa and even if there was it would be effortlessly corrupted. And they ain't gonna looose the races and go back to shoveling rocks + living in filth and poverty.0 -
they were not runners.
And Floyd may have had a high VO2. But so did Brett Aitken, the Australian trackie. 94! beat that. And in Aus, in 91.
http://72.14.235.132/search?q=cache:GcT ... cd=8&gl=au
You really should try and update your sports science, VO2max as the sole indicator, is outdated. That is what makes Lemond's accusations againt Armstrong absurd, when he just bases it on his VO2.
Armstrong and the rest were charged, no doubt about it, but you have got your facts wrong. There is a culture of drug enhancement in juniors, whether it be in high school gyms for aesthetic muscle, or linebacker muscle, or recreational drugs.
But wrt perfomance enhancing O2 boosters at 16, 17, 18, and by Africans who cannot afford a bike nor the plane ticket, just where do they start? When do they start doping? Who dopes them? Why? What is the point.
You are on a continuum, and the end point is they are doping from the time they walk.
To be credible, and call out the many many dopers, you are undermining your agenda. If your agenda is to expose, you must be srupulous and rigourous, and you are neither.0 -
Would it be remiss of me to point out that the overwhelming majority of world class African marathon runners don't live in Africa?0
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no. But the examples I listed are not even athletes.0
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Indeed.
If people are going to make outrageous claims they can't ignore inconvenient facts which contradict their hypotheses, something KK is prone to do.0 -
stagehopper wrote:Indeed.
If people are going to make outrageous claims they can't ignore inconvenient facts which contradict their hypotheses, something KK is prone to do.
they can! As you say, KK ignores the fact that one person has to decide to take EPO at one time in their career. Conveniently, he puts it right at the start. But this is not Carmichael and Wenzel hooking you up with "extract of cortisone". We are talking quite a heavy duty product, EPO, which is given at a home institute, by key facilitators (coaches and administrators) when under supervision of government.
Perhaps once under supervision in the East, the GDR and USSR. But now it is more decentralised, and freelance, and eyes look in the opposite direction, to allow the athletes to outsource their performance enhancing program.
But to suggest it is first day, first physiological test, is just ludicrous. Even in the big teams, and their feeder systems, it is a continuum, where athletes are gradually introduced, and made more pliable, the new moral relativism, new cultural paradigm, where doping is but a part of the sport, like nutrition and recovery.
The talented athletes will see the gear, and be introduced to it, but in a slow indoctrination. To just give them dope, and an ultimatum, first day in the system, will cause the system to undermine itself, as this MO and practice is publicised. It just cant happen. It is counterthetical.
KK has a psychosis.0 -
I have it on THE BEST authority that a total body Hb test is on the way, but has not, as yet been perfected to a level which would make it readily available, repeatable and reliable in the field. I think that the rcing will get a LOT more even and fair once it is available, and is combined with passports. Greg Lemonde said that he could still beat people who were on steroids/hgh/etc. It was the epo and blood doping which tilted the board too far.Dan0
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flattythehurdler wrote:I have it on THE BEST authority that a total body Hb test is on the way, but has not, as yet been perfected to a level which would make it readily available, repeatable and reliable in the field. I think that the rcing will get a LOT more even and fair once it is available, and is combined with passports. Greg Lemonde said that he could still beat people who were on steroids/hgh/etc. It was the epo and blood doping which tilted the board too far.
The total body hemoglobin needs to be administered by an outside authority not involved with cycling and not being paid.
The Tour needs to be viewed as a historical sporting monument by the French government, and they need to bring it back to legitimacy and protect it. Entire countries sponsoring teams is ludicrous, the sponsorship belongs among corporate players with less political trade influence.( Unless political campaigns are run on corporate dollars.) US Postal-Astana should not be allowed to race.
The kenyans that rode Alp D'Huez were fit athletes that had been training on the bike and they were jacked to the clouds on EPO. Anything else is trolling absurdity. You dont ride 42 or 43 minutes on that mountain without being a highly trained freak or a highly trained somewhat talented rider jacked with a high crit.
The sporting federations are all corrupt for the most part including USA Cycling. USADA is run by executives that ran the corrupt USOC that threw away over 100 positive drug tests. AIS systematically dopes juniors or they look away while the juniors get deals on EPO. No difference because the deed is done regardless. USOC/ USAC has blood doped their 1984 team and they probably do again now. If they are "looking the other way" what difference is there? It gets done regardless. Hamilton's blood refill came from a dirty centrifuge for example, are his activites between morning IOC blood controls and the start of the TT not being monitored by the US team? "Hurry up Tyler, go take your 800cc whole blood refill in your motorhome with Haven and Tugboat at your bedside"
Matt Decanio finished the WOrld Championships TT in 17th place less than 2 minutes behind, 40 kilometers against doped riders. With 50 watts more (380 watts to 430) He could have won. However, 25% more than 390 is 488 watts. That is over Lance Pharmstrong's magical 6.7 w/kg and approaching a doped LeMond's territory.0 -
Having looked at this thread, there are two people who are willing to make all sorts of accusations about all manner of riders with absolutely no evidence at all
KKS - he says he's a Cat 1 rider in the US and yet he seems to know the doping program of every Euro pro. Why not hand over you're findings to the authorities?
FVP - more restrained but still willing to fling dirt without a scrap evidence.
It has been stated that they both post on cyclingfoums.com which I consider as some sort of rabid cult
So where is the evidence boys or are you try to be the big man on the inside (I did this once on Cardiff City forums for about a year on the basis of one conversation in a pub (James Collins saying he was going to West Ham - my team). Everyone thought I was ITK but I knew nothing). Evidence boys, evidence.
I personally take both with a pitch of salt.Personally I don't believe anything either of you say
Me personally - I've never cycled competitively, but I love the sport as a spectator. I have my opinions as to who is dirty and who is clean, but I like to see a good race and if a favourite of mine is busted I'm very disappointed.
But I don't like accusations levelled at people with sod all evidence - including guilt by association.
IfI you want to accuse me of having my head in the sand then fair enough - I have bigger worries.
In summary - I think both of you (but mostly KKS), are frauds who really know very littleTwitter: @RichN950 -
RichN95 wrote:Having looked at this thread, there are two people who are willing to make all sorts of accusations about all manner of riders with absolutely no evidence at all
KKS - he says he's a Cat 1 rider in the US and yet he seems to know the doping program of every Euro pro. Why not hand over you're findings to the authorities?
FVP - more restrained but still willing to fling dirt without a scrap evidence.
dont compare me to KK.
I think you should be more informed. KK does everyone a disservice with his conspiracy shit. Why would doping be the bastion of few renegades? It is obvious it has a grip on the sport. There are not good people, and bad people, you need to lose that paradigm, of ethics and morality.
One is dealing with A type personalities. They do not sacrifice competition, because the competitor to the right of them, is getting an edge, indeed, the proportion of the peloton is getting the edge, that can be completely neutralised.
You seem to assume any doping is marginal. A rudimentary study of sociology and the culture would understand, this is not going to be the reality.
A smart doper, will never be caught. There are ways and means, to maintain separation, and the urine/blood kept to levels that will not trigger the tests. You need to look at all available information. Inside information, indirect evidence, rides and performances that do not pass the credibility test, physical morphology, and associations. You don't go to Cecchini as a changed man. You don't have riders associated with doping running your teams. It is quite simple.
What is your threshold of evidece? Blood in a fridge, or a positive test? Rumsas had neither! Millar had neither. So you assume your caught the two renegades in Rumsas and Millar? What about the rest of the blood in Fuentes fridge?
You think Rob Hayles was dehydrated, yet he never tripped the 50 crit threshold before. He rode on Cofidis. He had many hematocrit test, yet this was the first test, he triggered because of illness, and dehydration? It is simply not credible. And what did Brailsford say? If Brailsford is credible, he would have thrown him on his arse. Brailsford also has said, that he wants a Tour de France winner in the next 5 years. You can't win the Tour clean as it stands now. Is this not revealing enough?0 -
FVP, you are still making a leap. It could be that Brailsford was forced to defend Hayles on the eve of the most successful Olympics ever given he knew that any bad news would tarnish all the gold. It could be he was dehydrated. It could be a bad test. Now each case is possible but we don't know.
Personally I have my own views, based on evidence I've seen but can't share because it's not fair on people involved so I'll leave it at that.0 -
Kléber wrote:FVP, you are still making a leap. It could be that Brailsford was forced to defend Hayles on the eve of the most successful Olympics ever given he knew that any bad news would tarnish all the gold. It could be he was dehydrated. It could be a bad test. Now each case is possible but we don't know.
Personally I have my own views, based on evidence I've seen but can't share because it's not fair on people involved so I'll leave it at that.
Just how the heck did he know all the gold would come? Oh, the science? We never bought that with Armstrong. I do concede, I think the track is a small pond, and with resources, and a bigger talent catchment, and developing that talent (see Hoy for eg) over a decade, can reap genuine results. I think if USA Cycling had 20 million to burn, they could go along and get all the Track and Field athletes that graduate from UCLA and do not make it to being pro sprinters, and harvest them for gold. Wiggins and Phinney, can do some great times, I have no doubt. Phinney is showing the boundaries of what is possible. It is a small catchment, increase the catchment, and Boardmans illegal position WR will come down. I also think Hushovd and Cancellara would push it much further, but I am not confident in Cancellara.
Team pursuit you can leverage resources, and a talent development pipeline. That is science and business strategy. Team sprint, less so, getting those parameters dialled. It needs the raw talent.
you could be right. But it is not plausible. It is close to Saiz pleading not guilty because the Sports Minister did not want Spanish sport sullied, and put the hard word on him. I don't buy it. I don't buy Martin McCrossan suggesting it was a health test, and it was merely a health test. The fact is, everyone who has any informed background, know the 50 crit test, is a de facto doping test, when they cannot hang you.
If this was a Spanish or Italian authority, you would probably be more than willing to hang them.
I think leading up to London, you need to be more suspicious and wield a rigorous eye over implausible performances. I don'tt think any of the individual actual performances were out of bounds, with their advantages. But holistically, it developed a different hue.
I would not put it out of bounds to see the UJ sweep the mens medals in London, if they can change the program so the points and madison is not tacked on after the UK has achieved medals. Because you can be sure, that they will be locked down, in those events by the other teams if they have swept the medals. Be entertaining in the very least.0 -
That's possible but then there is little to suggest organised doping in the GB track squad. I see tales almost every day from Italy and Spain about doping scandals.
Saiz after all was exposed as running a full doping programme at ONCE, it was the scheme that Festina copied. The result? Nada, despite court room testimony from Alex Zulle and other evidence, Saiz was allowed to continue in his job. Although team doctor Terrados was dispatched, and now acts as a consultant to Real Madrid. So I have a lot less time for Saiz than Brailsford.
But all I was saying is that you're making a few leaps to get to the conclusion that you want, eg Hayles is dirty, so Brailsford must be in on the deal especially since he mentioned a Tour winner. In fact the "Tour winner in five years" might be a goal but it was probably first and foremost for PR consumptions, to get headlines. I doubt he was really thinking "I need a guy with a Vo2Max of 90 and I'll "jack" him to the point where he's riding in the yellow jersey".0 -
The British track performances weren't that exceptional in terms of times despite the cutting edge technology etc which is why I would always immediately question the lazily tossed around PED allegations. It was more that most other track programmes seemed to be in a bit of a shambles.
What the British team had/has is a depth of talent through an extremely well-funded well-run programme allowing the best athletes to effectively become track professionals concentrating on Olympic/World goals rather than wandering off to try and make a living after leaving the junior scene whilst juggling any further progress on the world scene. Overall success for the programme has been "bought" through investment - though of course it's needed an incredible amount of work from the back staff and individual athletes to turn that investment into medals.
I think a good analogy is the Liverpool team from the 70s/80s in football. A brilliant back room staff talented spotted well, spent money wisely, kept motivation at a peak, introduced new talent at the right moment - success bred success bred success. Continuity and unity of purpose throughout the "project" meant that resources were utilised to the maximum. Everyone pointing in the same direction.0 -
Kléber wrote:That's possible but then there is little to suggest organised doping in the GB track squad. I see tales almost every day from Italy and Spain about doping scandals.
Saiz after all was exposed as running a full doping programme at ONCE, it was the scheme that Festina copied. The result? Nada, despite court room testimony from Alex Zulle and other evidence, Saiz was allowed to continue in his job. Although team doctor Terrados was dispatched, and now acts as a consultant to Real Madrid. So I have a lot less time for Saiz than Brailsford.
But all I was saying is that you're making a few leaps to get to the conclusion that you want, eg Hayles is dirty, so Brailsford must be in on the deal especially since he mentioned a Tour winner. In fact the "Tour winner in five years" might be a goal but it was probably first and foremost for PR consumptions, to get headlines. I doubt he was really thinking "I need a guy with a Vo2Max of 90 and I'll "jack" him to the point where he's riding in the yellow jersey".
the communications message hyperbole could have been scripted narrative. I had considered this. But on past record, not willing to give him a pass.0 -
RichN95 wrote:Me personally - I've never cycled competitively, but I love the sport as a spectator. I have my opinions as to who is dirty and who is clean, but I like to see a good race and if a favourite of mine is busted I'm very disappointed.
But I don't like accusations levelled at people with sod all evidence - including guilt by association.
IfI you want to accuse me of having my head in the sand then fair enough - I have bigger worries.
In summary - I think both of you (but mostly KKS), are frauds who really know very little
+1 good post Rich
MGGasping - but somehow still alive !0 -
forearms Van Petegem wrote:stagehopper wrote:Indeed.
If people are going to make outrageous claims they can't ignore inconvenient facts which contradict their hypotheses, something KK is prone to do.
KK has a psychosis.
I dont believe he put down a 93 VO2 max un-doped at 17 years old. They either lied about the test results and inflated him, or they didnt test at all and made up a number. But more likely the first.
Number 3 option, he was so jacked though the roof (99.99% chance if the VO2 max was really 93ml/kg-min) But you can believe he did, its your belief but its not mine.
4th, he was clean....that number is so unusual I dont blaim myself for believing the chances of him being clean are microscopic.
Its just a message board.
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and you should be well aware, that a VO2 is usually higher in a younger rider. And then it starts to reside.
If you were an expert or had a degree in exercise science, you would know this. What age did Lemond test at? 0 -
VO2 max peaks in early, early 20s but can be maintained for some time... Sometimes into early 30s. Thats why pros peak in late 20s early 30s, because they keep growing FTP and they can keep doing this as long as VO2 max doesnt decline more than a fraction.
Upper range for un-doped human VO2 max on a bicycle is 92.5... But you will see that in a total freak/fluke like LeMond and they'll do it around 20-28 years old.
Greg LeMond: In the 80s when I was racing we did VO2 Max testing, but it was to see the physical fitness. My first VO2 Max test was up in Squaw Valley on a treadmill and I had a 79 VO2 Max non-specific sport. But once I actually really started doing VO2 Max testing on a consistent basis in ’89… now you know it depends upon the level of fitness and training…I was on average about 6.2 to 6.4 liters of Oxygen, which translated to my racing weight would be 92, 93, 94 VO2 Max. I think only cross-country skier Bjørn Dæhlie [Generally considered the greatest Nordic skier of all time, 1992 Olympic Gold Medalist 15 km, 50 km, 4 x 10 km relay cross country skiing], had those same numbers. So I think I had one of, if not the highest.
Now I don’t know Merckx’s. I don’t think Merckx ever did a VO2 Max. So, I’m certain he was up there. I think Bernard Hinault’s VO2 Max was 88. I think I was of the top….
CB: 1 or 2...?
GL: 1 or 2, yes. At the top.
CB: Were you aware of what you could do in terms of average rate of vertical ascent? For instance, Ivan Basso made everyone’s eyes bug out when he was ascending at 1800 vertical meters an hour on the Colle San Carlo in the 2006 Giro.
GL: What wattage was he doing? I would look more at wattage because the rate of vertical ascent could vary so much depending on the pavement. Wattage is the ultimate truth. You know I’m very controversial because I think that you have to look at numbers.
My wattage, relative to VO2 Max…a VO2 Max of 92 or 93 in a fully recovered way…I think I was capable of producing 450 to 460 watts. The truth is, even at the Tour de France, my Tour de France climb times up l’Alpe d’Huez yielded a wattage of around 380 and 390. That was the historic norm for Hinault and myself. You’ve got times going back many, many years. But what was learned recently, in the last 5 years, was that when you start the Tour de France, you start with a normal hematocrit of, say, 45 percent. By the time you finish, it’s probably down 10 or 15 percent. Which means my VO2 Max dropped 10 or 15 percent. So that’s why I was never producing the same wattage. And then there a lot of other factors that help performance if you’ve recovered. My last time trial in ’89, I averaged about 420, 430 watts, which would match or be slightly down from what my real VO2 Max was.
Of course, in the ‘90s drugs came on the scene, so the wattages have gone out. There are some things that are just not explainable, people with VO2 Maxs in the low 80s producing 500 watts. A physiologist friend of my said that for a person to do that, 500 watts, he has to have to have nearly 100 milliliters of Oxygen. There are a lot of questions there for me.
When I start seeing wattage down to the historic norm, I’ll know that the battle of the drugs is starting to get back in place.
CB: We can at least understand that statistically, the physical gift that you possessed was one in millions?
GL: I read in a deposition in a trial that an expert witness said that I couldn’t have had a ninety [VO2 Max]…that I would have been a one in a thousand in the pro ranks to have that. I happened to have been in the 1980s and was probably the best rider out of a thousand pros. So [laughs], I was one in a thousand.
CB: Let’s go on to your career. As a young teenager, you were a successful competitive skier?
GL: I didn’t actually compete. I was into freestyle skiing. I went to a camp to learn how to do aerials. Then the following year I was hoping to do some competition. Mogul freestyle skiing was a new sport.
CB: You were 13?
GL: Yes, I was 13 and it was for my 14th birthday I was sent to up to Wayne Wong’s ski camp. I was there specifically to get more knowledge about doing aerial flips and improve my mogul skiing. It was my birthday present for being 14 years old. The coaches there said that bike riding was the best sport to do to get in shape for skiing. I went back and bought a bike and ended up riding through the winter. I just happened to meet somebody in a bike shop, Rick’s Bike Shop in Reno…
CB: Big Rick?
GL: Big Rick and a guy named Cliff Young who was in the shop, who was a racer in Northern California. He said, “You know, you should try racing. Come to our Reno Wheelmen club meeting.”
Two weeks later I went there and they convinced me to do a club race, which I did. I showed up in tennis shoes, tank top and running shorts, 35-pound bike in the middle of the Reno winter. Everybody else had their leg warmers on, Italian bikes. I ended up getting second place out of it. It was a 28-mile race, 4 laps around a 7-mile loop right in front of my house.
They convinced my dad that I must have some special talent. So my dad got me a new bike, a Cinelli at Rick’s Bike Shop. I got the shoes, the shorts. Two weeks later I started my first race in Sacramento and won my first 11 races.
CB: Were you an Intermediate then, 14 years old?
GL: Yes
CB: So, upon getting your USCF license you really won your first 11 races?
GL: Yes. And I was bored with winning the 11 races so I asked the officials to allow me to race in the junior category. This was a whole different age group, a much more competitive age group. There were hundreds of juniors in California. You’d go to a race like Nevada City and there’d be a hundred juniors.
CB: I remember that back then sometimes there would be so many juniors that they would break the field in half and run 2 junior races.
GL: Yes. There were more juniors then than there are today. Back then you’d have the 84 x 15 gear restriction for intermediates where the juniors were 52 x 15. So I was second in Nevada City. Most of the races I entered I was second or third because I didn’t have the gear to sprint.
CB: For a second year racer, your 1977 could only be described as stunning. Let me recite the statistics. You won over half the races you entered, (27 out of 47) and became the Junior National Champion and won the Junior World’s trials. Can you describe what your life was like at this point?
GL: This was the first year I really raced outside of Northern California. I went to the Nationals the year before but I think one of my best memories was going to the Junior World’s Trials. I was just 15 at the time, going on 16. I ended up winning 2 out of the 3 races. I was first, second, first. Obviously I was the strongest rider there, but they wouldn’t let me go to the World’s because I was a year too young. I think they could have made an exception and I could have gone, but they didn’t do it.
CB: Any particular races besides the trials stand out in that year?
GL: Obviously wining my first National Championship in Seattle was exciting. It was on a very hilly course and I crashed 3 times. I kept crashing and coming back. At that time I was so driven that crashes didn’t even faze me. I got back up to the lead group, they had a couple of minutes on me. I bridged back up to them and then won the sprint against a rider who ended up being one of my better friends, Jeff Bradley. I won that year and the next year he won and then the following year I won the national championships and he was second. So we were first-second, first-second.
CB: You and you father were traveling and racing together?
GL: We were kind of like a family unit then with a Volkswagen Vanagon. Most every weekend we went from Reno to the [San Francisco] Bay area.
CB: There was lots of racing in the Bay area then.
GL: Every weekend I could race, starting from February. We’d come down to Southern California occasionally to race. By the time I was in my third year in ’78, I was winning most of my junior races, so I was given permission to ride in the senior category. I raced against John Howard in the Tour of Fresno. He couldn’t drop me. Again, I was riding with restricted gears.
We were riding a time trial and I was up by 20 seconds up at the turnaround into a headwind and I lost by 10 seconds because the tailwind was so strong that I couldn’t pedal fast enough with my junior gears. I was spun out.
CB: And Howie used big gears…
GL: Yeah yeah, a 56…That was really a standout for me because that confirmed that I could compete against the best in America, even 10 years older. In ’78 I had my first World Championship in Washington DC where I got a bronze medal in the team time trial, a ninth place in the road race. That’s where I broke my saddle, which happened right in the beginning, I broke a titanium saddle. So I sat on a broken saddle the whole race.
And then one of my best friends, Kent Gordis (who wrote my book in ’85) invited me to stay at his dad’s house in Switzerland. We spent 2 months in Switzerland. Basically, the family; Kent, his mom and I, drove around Switzerland, France and Belgium and raced all the top junior races. I won the 2 races I entered in Switzerland, a big, big criterium in Embrach, near Zurich. It had all the top juniors racers in Switzerland there. Then a race in Sion-Sierre, near Crans Montana, near Italy. Won that race.
Went to France, won 2 other races and went to Belgium and won 4 or 5 other races. Then I flew to Poland and won 1 race and then got third overall in this big Czechoslovakian-Polish Eastern Block race. So that was my period when I realized that I could be as good as the Europeans. And that was at 17.
CB: You were racing what would turn out to be the first successful American demographic cohort to race and win internationally, both as amateurs and professionals. Did you and the others (Bradley, Demgen, Kiefel, etc) sense that you were bringing American racing to a substantially higher level?
GL: I think that there was a sense that Eddy B, Eddy Borysewicz, the coach, was able to get our team in the team time trial together. But I don’t think those riders really looked at going to Europe and doing well. I think I was on another level, above my competitors.
CB: You had greater ambitions than they had?
GL: I think they knew that I was significantly stronger than they were. At that time nobody thought we could compete in Europe. None of those riders had ambitions of going to Europe. I think it was only once I got there and started racing and they got more mature and started racing on the national team in Europe, they started doing better in the international races.
By ’84 and ’85 they put together the 7-11 team and then they raced internationally. It’s kind of like they waited to let me test the waters and then they would come over.
CB: In addition to your family, were you getting help and guidance from others besides Eddy B, like Roland Della Santa?
GL: In the beginning yes. Roland sponsored me in my second year of racing with bikes. As a junior I got a lot of prize money racing. By the time I was 16 was I basically paying all of my own expenses, from race winning and sponsorships. At 17, I got Grab-On as a sponsor and possibly Palo Alto Bike Shop. Avocet sponsored me in 1980. I was just 18, but I made about $30,000 that year.
CB: These are 1980 Dollars!
GL: Yes, which is quite a bit on money for an 18-year old. I bought my first car with my race winnings.
CB: 1978. You were only winning a third of the races you entered. Were you traveling to bigger and harder races?
GL: A third? I think I was winning more than that. Well, that might be right because I was in the senior category. That might be right. In 78 I went to Europe for 2 months and raced and won most of the races I rode over there.
CB: You and the rest of the junior team put yourselves on the map with a third in the team time trial and your ninth in the road race, which you talked about. How do you explain the improvement in American placings in international competition? Do you think it as just having a larger pool of riders from which to draw, because the junior pool was so huge?
GL: I think so. That was a major factor. I think the biggest reason for improvement was the Olympic Training Center and Eddy B. He defected from the Olympics and put some structure [on the program]. He didn’t focus on the seniors. He focused on the juniors. He really put all of his efforts on the team time trial and teaching riders about intervals, how to train and about quality over quantity. He was a believer in very hard intervals in February, which, at the time, you just did long, slow miles.
CB: It was the long, slow distance era…
GL: Yes. And his training is relevant today. He was the one who put the structure into the training and motivated the riders and motivated the National Federation to send teams to Europe to race. So, it started in ’78, ’79, ’80. 1980 was when I went to Europe with the National Team where I won Circuit de la Sarthe, which led to my getting an offer to race professionally. When I look at the numbers of junior riders today compared to when I was racing there’s probably a third less racing today than in the 70s.
CB: Smaller pool?
GL: Smaller pool. So the secret for the future of cycling is to figure out how to draw a bigger pool from all of these American athletes. That’s the challenge. That’s a big challenge.
CB: Had you yet decided to embark on a career as a cycling professional?
GL: In 78? That was my dream!
CB: It wasn’t a concrete fact in your mind at that point?
GL: No, no. It was a concrete fact! By ’76, my first year, by ’77 when I started learning about the Tour de France. In ’78 I spent 2 months in Europe. I was staying in Geneva. I rode my bike with Jean-Claude Killy. I was racing with the Geneva team when I rode races in Switzerland. We did a ride from Geneva to the Joux-Plane, which is a big mountain before Morzine. We were able to watch from Jean-Claude Killy’s chalet the Tour de France go over the mountain. When I saw that… that’s what I wanted to do. What was interesting was that for me, it wasn’t just a dream. I was winning most of my races in my first year, pretty much the dominant racer in my category the second year. My third year I was racing with John Howard, and all the top amateur racers and was just as competitive as they were.
And when I went to Europe, the 2 races in Switzerland, I rode, I won. The 2 races in France I won. They were all big races at that time.
CB: You won every race you rode in Belgium?
GL: No, I had 2 seconds. I won 3 races and got 2 seconds and then I went to Poland and won one stage and got third overall. I came back from that trip with the idea that…well the mentality of Americans at that time was that the European were so much better and that they were such bigger talents. But for a 17-year old kid, at the time, I think it was pretty logical to think that Eddy Merckx had to start somewhere. I’m just as good as any Belgian or and French or Swiss rider so why can’t I take them on in the Tour?
I made a list of goals in 1978. 4 Goals.
Junior World Championship
Olympics
World Championships at 22
And Tour de France at 25.
Nobody was going to stop me. This is what I was going to do. The quicker I could do it and get to Europe the better.
[We talked a bit about his advocacy at the time of the importance of other riders going to Europe to improve and how many thought it best to stay in the U.S….]
GL: That was the mentality of the American racers. That was right when the Red Zinger was starting. There was the thought that we should keep our talent in America. If your goal was to win the National Championship or the Red Zinger, that was fine. My goal was to win the Tour de France.
CB: That was the era when the goal was to make the Olympic team, not to win the Olympics.
GL: The Americans would peak for the Trials with the thought that once they got to the Olympics, “Let’s just finish the race.”
In the 79 Junior World Championships I got 3 medals, one on the track in the pursuit and the team time trial. We probably would have done better in the team time trial had we not lost a rider from a crash. But then I ended up winning the Junior World Championships 2 days later.
CB: Were you America’s first Men’s World Road champion? [Audrey McElmury won the Women’s Road Championship in 1969 and Frank Kramer was World Sprint Champion in 1912]
GL: Yes.
CB: In 79, what team were you riding for?
GL: In 79…I was racing on a Raleigh, I think it was Avocet. In 1979 as a junior I made about $20,000 in prizes and sponsorships, which were used for travel and expenses. In 1980 I made about $30,000. I’m only saying this because when I turned pro, I turned pro for an astronomical, highest neo-pro paid ever at $12,000 for the year. I took a pay cut, to a third.
CB: Beats the heck out of poor Brian Robinson, who in the 1950s got a jersey and a bike!
GL: Oh God, yeah. At least I got all my expenses paid.
CB: OK, at the end of 79 you are both the National and World Junior Champion, with a second in the Junior Word’s pursuit race thrown in for good measure. You are about to become a senior men’s racer. What is your plan for the next year?
GL: My goal was the Olympics. 1980 was the Olympics. It was in Moscow and so my goal was to win the Olympics, my next goal. I won my first goal, which was the Junior World Championship. My second goal was to win the Olympics.
I went over in April with the National Team and competed in three 5-day stage races. One, Circuit des Ardennes, which I won a stage and got third place overall.
CB: You won the Circuit de la Sarthe.
GL: The Circuit de la Sarthe was really my big breakthrough because it was against professionals, East Germans, Eastern block countries.
GL: And when I won it, that sparked the interest of Cyrille Guimard, who then came to the next race I was riding, the Ruban Granitier de Breton, which is another 5-day race. I was in a breakaway with 5 Russians and a Belgian. Had I just stayed with that group I would have won that race. I got a flat tire in the last day and my follow car wasn’t behind me. I ended up losing about 2 and a half minutes to the break, which I would never catch because they were 5 Russians riding flat out. And the peloton was 2 and a half minutes behind, which meant that I just lost the whole race. I was… emotionally pissed off.
Lejeune bikes were sponsoring the U.S. team and helping with part of the expenses.
CB: Was this all as part of the National Team?
GL: Yeah, We had no money. We were shoestringing it over there. The organizers paid for the hotels. Lejeune help cover some of the mechanical stuff. So, when I had a flat, I waited and waited and waited. The Belgian team came up and handed me a wheel. Then the Lejeune car came up…”Where the heck have you been..?”, I told the mechanic, “I’m done. You just cost me the race.”
The mechanic insisted that I finish the race for the sponsor as if I had some moral or financial obligation to the sponsor. When he said that I got off and threw his Lejeune bike at the car and said, “I’m done.”
Cyrille Guimard saw that. He came to me after the stage and said in interviews later that, “When I saw his temperment, that is when I decided that’s who I wanted on the team.”
CB: That Fall Bernard Hinault and Cyrille Guimard traveled to Nevada to talk to you?
GL: Yep. I signed my contract. What happened was that after I won the Circuit de la Sarthe and Guimard approached me and I was approached by Peugeot and another French team, I forgot which French team. I actually started negotiating between the 2 of them
CB: You were playing them against each other?
GL: I was playing Peugeot and Guimard off. Peugeot was willing to pay me 15,000 Francs a month versus 6,000. I was trying to get Renault [Guimard’s team] up but I already knew that Renault was the one I was going to go with.
CB: Was that because of Guimard?
GL: Yeah. He was the best coach, way better than on any other team out there. I just knew that Guimard the coach and I think he turned out to be the best coach of all time, really.
CB: I am told that when he does racing commentary on TV it is the most insightful.
GL: He is a great tactician. He wasn’t the best cyclist, but he won races. The best director sportifs aren’t usually the true champions. There are the ones who have to scrape by.
CB: It’s the same with baseball managers.
GL: Yes. You have to tactically figure it out. But he was more of a great psychologist. He was able to look at each rider independently, get to know him. And that’s why he came to Reno with Hinault. It was to see how I lived, meet my parents, know my background, so that he would understand me.
For my first 3 years he let me come home in the middle of the season for 3 or 4 weeks, knowing that I would be homesick. And I was. It was a great relief. The thought of spending January to October in Europe was just a nightmare for me. I like Europe a little bit but I like home a lot more.
CB: What did they pay you your first year?
GL: I don’t remember what the exchange rate was. It started off at $18,000 a year [in French Francs]. The Franc weakened and the Dollar strengthened and it dropped down to $12,000. But Guimard, halfway through the season, after I was third in the Dauphine that year, won my first race, the Tour de l’Oise (the main thing was being third behind Hinault in the Dauphine, which was THE race for preparing for the Tour), he gave me a raise. He knew about the Dollar fluctuation and upped me to $25,000 a year. It was generous. He tried to make my life…he treated me very well.
CB: After they signed you, what did they say their plans were for you for the coming 1981 season?
GL: I was 19. So Guimard said, “Your first year, we want you to do 70, 80 races. You aren’t going to race a full, hard program. What we want you to gain this year is experience. We’ll pick out a few races, the Dauphine, the Coors Classic as races to focus on.”
CB: He wanted to invest in you?
GL: Yes. He thought I was going to be the next Hinault. He told me that. He told me, “You’re the biggest talent I’ve ever seen.” He told me I was a bigger talent than when he met Hinault. He said we’ll race the Tour de France when you’re ready and between you and me we’ll win a lot of races.
CB: Hinault didn’t show instant natural ease of winning races that you had.
GL: Be he was great though…
CB: But his progress was more developmental.
How did you prepare over the winter of 80-81? You signed your contract and then…
GL: I signed my contract on the last day of the Tour de France on the Champs Elysées, the day the race finished. I was getting married. I was engaged to my wife and we begged her parents to let us get married before I moved away to Europe. We couldn’t imagine living away from each other. She was going to college. So we decided to get married in December 21st of that year, just before I went to Europe.
I had a [pair of] Belgian friends, Noël Dejonckheere, who was a professional racer and his brother Richard. Ill-advised, my friends told to me to take 6 months off and just have fun because once you turn pro you’ll never take 6 months off again until you’re done. Most racers will race 15 years. So I literally did that. I got so out of shape, deconditioned and gained about 10 pounds.
So I started riding right after our wedding. We went to San Diego to start training. I showed up at the early season just out of shape and pudgy. Guimard had me do a race that was 110 miles and then do another 40 miles afterwards. I went from about 150 to 135 in about 6 weeks. I was skinny, skinny, skinny after about 6 weeks.
CB: When did you go over to Europe to live? Where did you go to live?
GL: I negotiated a contract that had a salary, airline tickets, a car and a house. Guimard wanted me close to him. He lived near Nantes. So he got me a house in a town called La Chapelle-sur-Erdre. He promised that it would be furnished. When we showed up in January 9th… no furniture. So we spent 2 weeks in a hotel and then my wife moved in with a mattress and a cooking pan. I went off for 4 weeks to a training camp and left my wife there all by herself. Fortunately my mom came over for a week or 2 and spent some time with her. But the furniture…they kept saying next week, next week. It was the middle of April when we finally got furniture. It was not a pleasant experience.
CB: You got a quick dose of the French and Italian sense of urgency? The Italians have a word, “Subito” which is literally translated as “right now”, but really means soon, if it is convenient.
GL: [laughs] Exactly.
CB: What was your first pro race?
GL: I think it might have been the Étoile de Bessèges.
CB: Very early, in February, in the South of France?
GL: Got dropped.
CB: You were riding a Campagnolo-equipped Gitane? Do you know who built your bike?
GL: Gitane. It was from the factory, but it was custom-made.
CB: We’ve talked to lots of pros who found that first year as a pro with the longer races and higher sustained speeds was quite a shock and took some adjusting. How about you?
GL: Had I trained like I normally did and not taken my Belgian friend’s advice and kept myself in shape, it would not have been a bad transition. It took me through February and that training camp to really drop about 10 pounds. By March I starting to feel good. April I felt actually quite good in Paris-Roubaix. I was really helping Hinault. He won his first Paris-Roubaix and only Paris-Roubaix that year.
CB: And he hated it…
GL: Yeah....I loved it. I did a big final attack that split the race up for Hinault and then I just bagged it after 230 kilometers.
CB: So you were in pretty good shape by April?
GL: By April I was. And then I went back to the U.S. for a break. I came back and did my first race, the Tour de l’Oise. I won a stage in it in front of Phil Anderson. That was my first pro victory. And then 10 days later I started the Dauphiné Libéré. I ended up getting 4th place but the 3rd place rider was caught doping so I moved up to 3rd place.
And then just shortly after that we flew back with the Renault team to the Coors Classic which had the Russian Olympic Gold Medalist.
CB: Soukouroutchenkov?
GL: Soukouroutchenkov and Barinov [1980 Olympic bronze medallist] and the whole Russian team, which for me was, for me, a test to see who would have been the Olympic champion. This was my real revenge on missing the Olympics. I can’t believe we actually boycotted the Olympics because they invaded Afghanstan. We’ve invaded 2 countries and nobody has boycotted anything right now.
That race I ended up winning, I don’t know how much time I took out of Soukouroutchenkov, something like 10 minutes. We went head to head. Me against 4 Russians on the Morgul Bismark course. They tried every which way to drop me and every time they would attack I’d chase one guy down. I would slow down just before I caught him. And then as the other group caught up, just before they caught up I’d do an attack and drop everybody. Then I’d slow down and then when they would catch me they’d send somebody off and the immediately I’d go after him.
I just played this game with them and they couldn’t drop me and I ended up second in that stage. I won that race. That was my big victory for ’81, the Coors Classic.
After that I stayed in the United States until August, came back and did some criteriums with Hinault, who won the Tour de France that year. I raced the World’s and that was my last race and came home after that.0 -
KK and FVP, do us all a favor and go back to cyclingforums.com0
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I thought MG had, for once, put his tongue in his cheek wit that one. A case of the virtual pub debate losing something over the ether[net]. As you were.0
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Well i didnt expect to get such an err interesting response to the original post??
Ive asked a question on this forum before and it might be an unwritten rule not to ask this particular one so i appologise if that is the case but.....
In light of all the previous information on this and other threads does this mean that the Brits are doing this stuff too?
Are Hammond, Cavendish et al also on the sauce?
If theyre not how can they win against the others and if DB wants a UK tour winner is he going to embrace artificial preparation. Indeed is it not reasonable to question the sucess achieved so far?
In short why does all this vitriol and assumption of guilt seem to apply to a much greater extent to "foreign" riders? (appologies to non brits)0 -
For the Brits, look no further than Millar. He now seems to be an anti-doping evangelist but he's proof that a Brit will dope of course.
To return to an earlier point, I mentioned that Allan Davis has been saying "I'll give my blood for testing" as a way to exonerate himself. I said above that all this proves is that he had no blood stored with Fuentes.
MorayGub replied I was saying this was "guilt by association" when I just meant that proving a negative didn't have to put the guy in the clear...
...which brings us to the actual Puerto documents. In the files that have been seen by the Spanish press, Davis's name does not appear alongside the notation for blood doping and the storage of blood. But "Document 23" does list his name and then make reference to EPO, growth hormone and IGF-1 and "Document 31" mentions him again under a sheet explaining the "individualisation" of the doping program. So no blood doping but some serious questions to answer as from the documents it appears Fuentes was detailing a full doping programme.
Of course I can suggest alternative views, that the documents are false or perhaps Fuentes was just doodling. Hopefully we'll see in court one day. But in the meantime, if you believe the documents are true then like I say, offering a blood test can prove the blood is not yours but it doesn't go very far to explain why words like "hormona de crecimiento" and "EPO" appear next to your name.0 -
Kléber wrote:For the Brits, look no further than Millar. He now seems to be an anti-doping evangelist but he's proof that a Brit will dope of course.
To return to an earlier point, I mentioned that Allan Davis has been saying "I'll give my blood for testing" as a way to exonerate himself. I said above that all this proves is that he had no blood stored with Fuentes.
MorayGub replied I was saying this was "guilt by association" when I just meant that proving a negative didn't have to put the guy in the clear...
...which brings us to the actual Puerto documents. In the files that have been seen by the Spanish press, Davis's name does not appear alongside the notation for blood doping and the storage of blood. But "Document 23" does list his name and then make reference to EPO, growth hormone and IGF-1 and "Document 31" mentions him again under a sheet explaining the "individualisation" of the doping program. So no blood doping but some serious questions to answer as from the documents it appears Fuentes was detailing a full doping programme.
Of course I can suggest alternative views, that the documents are false or perhaps Fuentes was just doodling. Hopefully we'll see in court one day. But in the meantime, if you believe the documents are true then like I say, offering a blood test can prove the blood is not yours but it doesn't go very far to explain why words like "hormona de crecimiento" and "EPO" appear next to your name.
OMG Gustav finished 73rd 49 sec down.... Thats F-d up! Somebody who was 3rd at the Amgen TT is not going to sandbag like that unless not blood-refilled or sick....
Wiggins is jacked and Contradoper beat him by 7 sec.... And Wiggins is a short TT specialist and he peaked for that TT and he is jacked like hell and he is MUCH heavier than Contra.... Thats F-d is all I have to say. Especiall Gustov's un-jacked 73rd...0
