WADA wants the purto bags

Kléber

I never said he was guilty.

Still, feel free to discuss hypothetical situations. What are your views on Davis, Saiz and Fuentes?

andyp

What kind of rider is Allan Davis? A good sprinter, but not top drawer, but who can handle himself on the climbs so when the course is a bit tough for the top sprinters he'll prosper. In other words, an ideal rider to be the leader for races like Milan-San Remo, the Tour of Piedmont and other hilly races/stages.

If you're running a team which has a widespread doping program would you expect one of your leaders to opt out? He's going to be on a good wage as he'll get you wins so you're going to want to get your money's worth out of him. If he doesn't deliver you'll have to ship him out at the end of the season as he's not providing value for money. Saiz didn't, despite the fact that his 2003 season was only so-so, whereas in 2004 he won some good races.

So, if you were to ask me if he was part of the Liberty Seguros doping program, then I'd conclude that it was highly likely given his status in the that team.

blazing_saddles

Saiz had an intent to supply his riders, but specifically which ones is unprovable, without confessions.

An offer of DNA is not proof of innocence.
A DNA sample compared against the Fuentes blood bags should be considered proof of innocence, in no match is found.

Exactly the reason why WADA should get access to DNA the bags and name those involved.
You would have thought the innocent would be demanding action. It would remove any perceived guilt through association with either Fuentes or Saiz.

So why the silence?

I can't see how anyone can argue against such action.

moray_gub

andyp wrote:

What kind of rider is Allan Davis? A good sprinter, but not top drawer, but who can handle himself on the climbs so when the course is a bit tough for the top sprinters he'll prosper. In other words, an ideal rider to be the leader for races like Milan-San Remo, the Tour of Piedmont and other hilly races/stages.

If you're running a team which has a widespread doping program would you expect one of your leaders to opt out? He's going to be on a good wage as he'll get you wins so you're going to want to get your money's worth out of him. If he doesn't deliver you'll have to ship him out at the end of the season as he's not providing value for money. Saiz didn't, despite the fact that his 2003 season was only so-so, whereas in 2004 he won some good races.

So, if you were to ask me if he was part of the Liberty Seguros doping program, then I'd conclude that it was highly likely given his status in the that team.

Lol this gets more ludicrous by the hour so now its not just GBA but what type of rider his is that determines if he doped or not............what about the colour of his hair or his height or say whether he has facial hair............yea thats a good one we can run with say all riders with facial hair must have doped. Dress it up any way (and you sure are trying to) you want you aint got nothing on AD other than GBA. ...........Oh and the fact he is a decent sprinter who can get himself over moderate hills.................come on you can do better.

MG

moray_gub

Kléber wrote:

I never said he was guilty.

Still, feel free to discuss hypothetical situations. What are your views on Davis, Saiz and Fuentes?

Davis a decent rider who imo has not doped, i say that there as there is no one bit of evidence to say he did .Well there isnt if you discount the association and type of rider line that a few are coming away. As for Fuentes and Saiz up to their necks in it as has been well documented elsewhere the sport is better off without either of them being involved.


MG

moray_gub

Blazing Saddles wrote:

An offer of DNA is not proof of innocence.
A DNA sample compared against the Fuentes blood bags should be considered proof of innocence, in no match is found.

Davis cant win here as even if he did offer and there was no match the experts in here still say he doped.

MG

blazing_saddles

Moray Gub wrote:

Blazing Saddles wrote:

An offer of DNA is not proof of innocence.
A DNA sample compared against the Fuentes blood bags should be considered proof of innocence, in no match is found.

Davis cant win here as even if he did offer and there was no match the experts in here still say he doped.

MG

I take it, we are now having the, "so why bother" gambit from the apologist handbook.

If any rider on the OP list puts his DNA up for comparison against the bags and we find there is no match, then I for one would stand up for their innocence.
I think there are a lot more here, who would feel the same.

Anybody who still argued he doped, would do so against direct evidence to the contrary.

Of course, the consequences of such a cooperative action by riders wishing to clear their name might have reprocussions, elsewhere, that some around here may wish to avoid at all costs.

andyp

Moray Gub wrote:

Lol this gets more ludicrous by the hour so now its not just GBA but what type of rider his is that determines if he doped or not............what about the colour of his hair or his height or say whether he has facial hair............yea thats a good one we can run with say all riders with facial hair must have doped. Dress it up any way (and you sure are trying to) you want you aint got nothing on AD other than GBA. ...........Oh and the fact he is a decent sprinter who can get himself over moderate hills.................come on you can do better.

How is it ludicrous? You don't dope a rider unless he is going to win or is going to help someone win. There's no point doping domestiques if the team leader can't stay with them when the put the pressure on.

I've never said anything to suggest he is guilty other than by association. The trouble is, if you look at it from a dispassionate point of view then it looks likely that he doped as he associated with teams who ran programs.

KKspeeder

RichN95 wrote:

andyp wrote:

Moray Gub wrote:

There is absolutely nothing to condemn AD on other than association to MS. So the point i made mainly that he stands guilty by association in the court of King Kleber.

Is there any evidence to suggest that the team wide doping programme that Saiz operated at all his teams was optional?

Put it this way, if you were a team manager running a team which operated such a policy would you hire riders who didn't want to be part of it? That would be a waste of money surely?

So Christophe Bassons was dirty all along then. He must have been. He rode for Festina.

Bassons went into Festina with a clause in his contract stating he must ride in the team with no doping. He had immense talent, and the team management believed if they could ween him into doping he would be the next Hinault. The men who VO2 max tested Bassons even said, watch this one "he has the same ability as Hinault."
It didnt work, he wouldnt dope. Bassons became a PR story for Festina and he 'chronicled' daily on his experiences to the media.

He never doped, and he always finished around 40th-DNF range apart from a stage win at the Dauphine. Physically speaking, its safe to say his 85 V02 max un-doped is much higher than that of a LAnce Armstrong or Ullrich. Both of these men (Lance and Jan) had good natural talent but not great natural talent. Both of them responded very well to drug-therepy and were able to "jack" higher than everybody else who didnt have the expensive 02 carrying products or could not blood dope and then take blood out again to sleep.

Now, with no doping even a very talented pro will NOT exeed 5.5 or 5.6 w/kg and this wont get you inside the top 50 places overal in any Grand Tours (mostly from lack of recovery ability against riders jacked with a high crit & on recovery drugs) and you wont get inside the top 20 in any one-day classics unless a total FREAK thats at the highest possible un-jacked level-- 5.8 w/kg at FTP (max 1-hour sustained wattage.)

KKspeeder

andyp wrote:

Moray Gub wrote:

Lol this gets more ludicrous by the hour so now its not just GBA but what type of rider his is that determines if he doped or not............what about the colour of his hair or his height or say whether he has facial hair............yea thats a good one we can run with say all riders with facial hair must have doped. Dress it up any way (and you sure are trying to) you want you aint got nothing on AD other than GBA. ...........Oh and the fact he is a decent sprinter who can get himself over moderate hills.................come on you can do better.

How is it ludicrous? You don't dope a rider unless he is going to win or is going to help someone win. There's no point doping domestiques if the team leader can't stay with them when the put the pressure on.

I've never said anything to suggest he is guilty other than by association. The trouble is, if you look at it from a dispassionate point of view then it looks likely that he doped as he associated with teams who ran programs.

This is Truth. Decanio was in a team clean while his teammate/roomate had 27 vials of EPO in the fridge. They were both competing in the team to see which one would get selection for the Giro. His teammate got selection only to drop out on the first stage to avoid testing positive for anabolic steroids.

We all know the story about Lance dumping Floyd's 800cc blood refill down the toilet in FRONT OF HIM, at the 04 TdF because Floyd was riding just a little bit to.... "well."

richard wants a baum

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Moray Gub wrote:

Blazing Saddles wrote:

An offer of DNA is not proof of innocence.
A DNA sample compared against the Fuentes blood bags should be considered proof of innocence, in no match is found.

Davis cant win here as even if he did offer and there was no match the experts in here still say he doped.

MG

I take it, we are now having the, "so why bother" gambit from the apologist handbook.

If any rider on the OP list puts his DNA up for comparison against the bags and we find there is no match, then I for one would stand up for their innocence.
I think there are a lot more here, who would feel the same.

Anybody who still argued he doped, would do so against direct evidence to the contrary.

Of course, the consequences of such a cooperative action by riders wishing to clear their name might have reprocussions, elsewhere, that some around here may wish to avoid at all costs.

This was my point, he did offer it and as far as i can tell they couldnt because the spanish wont realise the bags. As soon as you get access to one bag you can probably get to the rest. It seems like the entire spanish system is hell bent on making sure none of those bags are touched though Valverde looks like his well and truly caught. There no more evidence that Davis didnt dope than he did but the fact that HE offered his DNA goes along way in my book but ive been wrong before :roll:

moray_gub

[quote="KKspeeder"
Now, with no doping even a very talented pro will NOT exeed 5.5 or 5.6 w/kg and this wont get you inside the top 50 places overal in any Grand Tours (mostly from lack of recovery ability against riders jacked with a high crit & on recovery drugs) and you wont get inside the top 20 in any one-day classics unless a total FREAK thats at the highest possible un-jacked level-- 5.8 w/kg at FTP (max 1-hour sustained wattage.)[/quote]

So basically you are saying any rider who finished in the top 20 in any one day classic the last few years is doped or some kind of freak ? If so thats a mighty big list you got going there mister

top 20 from 2008 MSR

1 Fabian Cancellara (Swi) Team CSC
2 Filippo Pozzato (Ita) Liquigas
3 Philippe Gilbert (Bel) Française des Jeux
4 Davide Rebellin (Ita) Gerolsteiner
5 Mirco Lorenzetto (Ita) Lampre
6 Anthony Geslin (Fra) Bouygues Telecom
7 Rinaldo Nocentini (Ita) AG2R La Mondiale
8 Oscar Freire Gomez (Spa) Rabobank 0.05
9 Thor Hushovd (Nor) Crédit Agricole
10 Kurt-Asle Arvesen (Nor) Team CSC
11 Alessandro Bertolini (Ita) Serramenti PVC Diquigiovanni-Androni Giocattoli
12 Enrico Gasparotto (Ita) Barloworld
13 Raffaele Illiano (Ita) Serramenti PVC Diquigiovanni-Androni Giocattoli 0.08
14 Inigo Landaluze Intxaurraga (Spa) Euskaltel - Euskadi 0.11
15 Franco Pellizotti (Ita) Liquigas 0.12
16 Alessandro Ballan (Ita) Lampre 0.13
17 Erik Zabel (Ger) Team Milram 0.14
18 Alessandro Petacchi (Ita) Team Milram
19 Baden Cooke (Aus) Barloworld
20 Nick Nuyens (Bel) Cofidis - Le Crédit par Téléphone

top 20 from Flanders 2008

1 Stijn Devolder (Bel) Quick Step 6.24.02 (41.246 km/h)
2 Nick Nuyens (Bel) Cofidis - Le Crédit par Téléphone 0.15
3 Juan Antonio Flecha Giannoni (Spa) Rabobank
4 Alessandro Ballan (Ita) Lampre 0.21
5 George Hincapie (USA) Team High Road
6 Filippo Pozzato (Ita) Liquigas
7 Kurt-Asle Arvesen (Nor) Team CSC
8 Greg Van Avermaet (Bel) Silence - Lotto
9 Simon Spilak (Slo) Lampre
10 Allan Johansen (Den) Team CSC
11 Bernhard Eisel (Aut) Team High Road
12 Martijn Maaskant (Ned) Slipstream Chipotle Presented By H30
13 Grégory Rast (Swi) Astana
14 Niki Terpstra (Ned) Team Milram
15 Philippe Gilbert (Bel) Française des Jeux
16 Dmitriy Muravyev (Kaz) Astana
17 Tom Boonen (Bel) Quick Step
18 Sebastiaan Langeveld (Ned) Rabobank
19 Leif Hoste (Bel) Silence - Lotto
20 Andreas Klier (Ger) Team High Road

lombardy 2008

Damiano Cunego (ITA/Lampre) 5 h 37:04, 2. Janez Brajkovic (SLO/AST) at
24 sec, 3. Rigoberto Uran (COL/GCE) 24, 4. Giovanni Visconti (ITA/QST) 33, 5.
Karsten Kroon (NED/CSC) 33, 6. Mauro Finetto (ITA/CSF), 7. Chris Horner (USA/AST), 8. Stefano Garzelli (ITA/ASA), 9. Morris Possoni (ITA/COL), 10.
Francesco Failli (ITA/ASA), 11. Craig Lewis (USA/COL), 12. Christian Pfannberger (AUT/BAR), 13. Alexandr Kolobnev (RUS/CSC), 14. Alessandro Ballan (ITA/LAM), 15. Matteo Tosatto (ITA/QST), 16. Federico Canuti (ITA/CSF), 17.
Andrea Noè (ITA/LIQ), 18. Matthew Lloyd (AUS/SIL), 19. Luca Mazzanti (ITA/TCS), 20. Rinaldo Nocentini (ITA/A2R) a

2008 Paris Tours

1 Philippe Gilbert (Bel) Française des Jeux 5.47.43 (43.484 km/h)
2 Jan Kuyckx (Bel) Landbouwkrediet - Tönissteiner
3 Sébastien Turgot (Fra) Bouygues Telecom
4 Nicolas Vogondy (Fra) Agritubel
5 Tyler Farrar (USA) Team Garmin-Chipotle p/b H30 0.04
6 Robbie McEwen (Aus) Silence - Lotto
7 Erik Zabel (Ger) Team Milram
8 Daniele Bennati (Ita) Liquigas
9 Kristof Goddaert (Bel) Topsport Vlaanderen
10 Tom Boonen (Bel) Quick Step
11 Mathieu Drujon (Fra) Caisse d'Epargne
12 Roy Curvers (Ned) Skil-Shimano
13 Mark Renshaw (Aus) Crédit Agricole
14 Sven Krauss (Ger) Gerolsteiner
15 Borut Bozic (Slo) Cycle Collstrop
16 Arnaud Coyot (Fra) Caisse d'Epargne
17 Matti Breschel (Den) Team CSC - Saxo Bank
18 Oscar Freire Gomez (Spa) Rabobank
19 Pablo Lastras Garcia (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne
20 Anthony Geslin (Fra) Bouygues Telecom


2008 LBL

1 Alejandro Valverde Belmonte (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne 6.44.04 (38.756 km/h)
2 Davide Rebellin (Ita) Gerolsteiner
3 Frank Schleck (Lux) Team CSC
4 Andy Schleck (Lux) Team CSC 0.30
5 Christian Pfannberger (Aut) Barloworld 0.40
6 Thomas Dekker (Ned) Rabobank
7 Cadel Evans (Aus) Silence - Lotto
8 Joaquim Rodriguez (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne 0.48
9 Paolo Bettini (Ita) Quick Step 1.03
10 Vincenzo Nibali (Ita) Liquigas
11 Oscar Freire Gomez (Spa) Rabobank
12 Kim Kirchen (Lux) Team High Road
13 Robert Gesink (Ned) Rabobank
14 Benoît Vaugrenard (Fra) Française des Jeux
15 Leonardo Piepoli (Ita) Saunier Duval - Scott
16 Matthew Lloyd (Aus) Silence - Lotto
17 Karsten Kroon (Ned) Team CSC
18 Rinaldo Nocentini (Ita) AG2R La Mondiale
19 Bert De Waele (Bel) Landbouwkrediet - Tönissteiner
20 Riccardo Riccò (Ita) Saunier Duval - Scott

a few suspicious characters amongst that lot but all dopers to a man or a freak eh ..............jeezo who would have though it eh ! even Pip Gilbert though maybe he can be categorised a s a freak !!!

MG

dave_1

andyp wrote:

What kind of rider is Allan Davis? A good sprinter, but not top drawer, but who can handle himself on the climbs so when the course is a bit tough for the top sprinters he'll prosper. In other words, an ideal rider to be the leader for races like Milan-San Remo, the Tour of Piedmont and other hilly races/stages.

If you're running a team which has a widespread doping program would you expect one of your leaders to opt out? He's going to be on a good wage as he'll get you wins so you're going to want to get your money's worth out of him. If he doesn't deliver you'll have to ship him out at the end of the season as he's not providing value for money. Saiz didn't, despite the fact that his 2003 season was only so-so, whereas in 2004 he won some good races.

So, if you were to ask me if he was part of the Liberty Seguros doping program, then I'd conclude that it was highly likely given his status in the that team.

your usual conjecture...oh well...classics coming so you can trash Hincapie and call him a doper if he does well and trash him anyway if he doesn't...lol ...as though you know anything about even riding as a half decent amatuer . Also, get it into your not so thin skull...was not saying you said the likes of cancellera was clean...was just asking you to remember to apply your guilt by association equally not selectively e.g against certain Americans.

forearms Van Petegem

if anyone thinks anyone on Liberty Seguros and Once were clean, you really need to be institutionalised.

Dont have to have blood in the Fuentes fridge to be doping. I also offer to have my DNA tested to be matched to the blood bags.

Means jack shit if he never got blood out, or the Spaniards are unlikely to test him. Or, indeed, if they would test him, to then get in a lawyer to appeal to some obscure civil liberty legislation.

Hamilton put his arm out, and said "test me" and offered up his vein. And everyone knows he was up to his eyeballs in the shit. They always deny. It does not mean a thing.

It is the culture. One individual is not worse than the other. There are no explicitly bad or evil individuals, that are just alpha characters, who are driven to perform and win in their profession. They need education that Nolf never decided to dope in a vacuum, and everyone who dopes, is indeed complicit in the deaths of Nolf and Salonson, if indeed, they died due to complications with a PED program.

I don't think any individual needs to be demonised. When there are solutions. Like keirin in Japan. Sequestering riders at major events, will have a reverse red queen effect. The only individuals who should be demonised, are the guys like Bruyneel, Riis, Ferrari, Cecchini, Verbruggen, and McQuaid.

The riders are not pawns tho. They still have free will, and personal responsibility. I will not buy Landis' sob story, that he is a victim. Nolf is a victime. Bassons is a victim. Vanderaerden is a victim. All those individuals who donated to the Free Floyd Fund under the belief of his innocence, they are victims. Floyd is not a victim, he is a fraud.

Kléber

Judge Patrick Keil didn't think Saiz was running a clean team at ONCE, describing préparation systématique sans exception, or organised doping without exception. This was discovered after Alex Zulle gave court room testimony in Lille following the Festina affair.

I'd like to hope Saiz ended this policy when the team changed sponsors but that requires a bit of faith, some optimism. Something many will struggle to credit Manolo Saiz with.

moray_gub

[quote="Dave_1"

your usual conjecture..Americans.[/quote]

Thats all it is with Alan Davis pure conjecture without any evidence at all and they are willing to condemn a man on that basis.

MG

skavanagh.bikeradar

So, are WADA going to get the bags or not?

finchy

MG - I think you're right about Gilbert - he seems to be a freak, and he's been speaking out about doping long before every other rider jumped on that bandwagon.

I'd also be happy to lay a bet on Hushovd being clean - the CA team was one of the good ones, and I wish they were still around.

timoid.

Agreed on Gilbert. Hushovd I can see taking recovery products (a la Greg).

Would Gilbert monster everybody if they all weren't goofed up?

Kléber

KK just said you can't beat a doped rider unless you are freakishly talented:

you wont get inside the top 20 in any one-day classics unless a total FREAK

Clearly the likes of Gilbert, Geslin and many others possess this great talent, it can be done. Even with his broad brush style, he didn't say "everyone in the top 20 must be doping".

moray_gub

Kléber wrote:

KK just said you can't beat a doped rider unless you are freakishly talented:

you wont get inside the top 20 in any one-day classics unless a total FREAK

Clearly the likes of Gilbert, Geslin and many others possess this great talent, it can be done. Even with his broad brush style, he didn't say "everyone in the top 20 must be doping".

no he didnt but he may as well have

He said

"and you wont get inside the top 20 in any one-day classics unless a total FREAK"

I dont think gilbert and a few others are total freaks they are good talented bike riders bugger all to do with being freaks.

MG

forearms Van Petegem

Timoid. wrote:

Agreed on Gilbert. Hushovd I can see taking recovery products (a la Greg).

Would Gilbert monster everybody if they all weren't goofed up?

In one days. In GTs I think Moncoutie, Casar, Mcgee have the edge. Evans too. Evans comes with the above "Hushovd asterisk".

forearms Van Petegem

johnfinch wrote:

MG - I think you're right about Gilbert - he seems to be a freak, and he's been speaking out about doping long before every other rider jumped on that bandwagon.

I'd also be happy to lay a bet on Hushovd being clean - the CA team was one of the good ones, and I wish they were still around.

Jaan Kirsipuu said in an Estonian paper, Hushovd was the only clean guy amongst the top tier. They all dope. That was his words to effect.

Ofcourse, Kirsipuu may have been protecting a mate on CA. And we know JV reckond Moreau was clean on CA "His hematocrit is only 43!" Well, that was BS, Moreau was doping on CA. May have been doing an Evans low scale program, or at times a no scale program. Evans might be on the no scale. Anyway, Moreau has been charging all career. No doubt. JV was wrong.

KKspeeder

Dave_1 wrote:

andyp wrote:

What kind of rider is Allan Davis? A good sprinter, but not top drawer, but who can handle himself on the climbs so when the course is a bit tough for the top sprinters he'll prosper. In other words, an ideal rider to be the leader for races like Milan-San Remo, the Tour of Piedmont and other hilly races/stages.

If you're running a team which has a widespread doping program would you expect one of your leaders to opt out? He's going to be on a good wage as he'll get you wins so you're going to want to get your money's worth out of him. If he doesn't deliver you'll have to ship him out at the end of the season as he's not providing value for money. Saiz didn't, despite the fact that his 2003 season was only so-so, whereas in 2004 he won some good races.

So, if you were to ask me if he was part of the Liberty Seguros doping program, then I'd conclude that it was highly likely given his status in the that team.

your usual conjecture...oh well...classics coming so you can trash Hincapie and call him a doper if he does well and trash him anyway if he doesn't...lol ...as though you know anything about even riding as a half decent amatuer . Also, get it into your not so thin skull...was not saying you said the likes of cancellera was clean...was just asking you to remember to apply your guilt by association equally not selectively e.g against certain Americans.

Its just a message board guys.

I race with cat 1 and they all think 99.% of top pros are jacked through the roof and their right. But not all doping is equal and many drugs are more potent than others.

You cant make a complete list of riders doping in one DAY because its over 800 riders racing PRO in Europe and most are jacking.

There's a BIG diff in quality with various epo brands and how much you have to use..... Some of these racers are poor and cant afford to spend tons of money on drugs.... Especiall the low key athletes not being tested that can still use ep.

These Continental Pro And ProTour teams have to really balance their budgets out too. Its a combo of buying up the best riders (the one's that respond best to drug therepy, not neccesarily the most talented cyclists) and then getting a good blood doping program on top of that. Its a fine balance....

And... Alot of Hincapie & other top pro's advantages come down to having been on teams that had better 02 carriers and recovery drugs... Tom Boonen guys is not that good clean. He raced Redlands here in the USA as a U-23 year old rider and he GOT IT HANDED TO HIM by a bunch of cat 1s and 2s in the NRC classic. If he couldnt do it at a young age then clearly something was ADDED later on to TRANSFORM HIM into somebody who could beat guys with more talent than him & on drugs (combo of more talent and doped.) So for SURE he either has had heavier doping or is a super responder to drug therepy.

KKspeeder

forearms Van Petegem wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

MG - I think you're right about Gilbert - he seems to be a freak, and he's been speaking out about doping long before every other rider jumped on that bandwagon.

I'd also be happy to lay a bet on Hushovd being clean - the CA team was one of the good ones, and I wish they were still around.

Jaan Kirsipuu said in an Estonian paper, Hushovd was the only clean guy amongst the top tier. They all dope. That was his words to effect.

Ofcourse, Kirsipuu may have been protecting a mate on CA. And we know JV reckond Moreau was clean on CA "His hematocrit is only 43!" Well, that was BS, Moreau was doping on CA. May have been doing an Evans low scale program, or at times a no scale program. Evans might be on the no scale. Anyway, Moreau has been charging all career. No doubt. JV was wrong.

That statement has a lot of VALUE.... a very un-guarded comment...

JV hates Lance and was making Lance out as a Villain which HE IS. Lance has f-d over a lotta people over the years.... Eventually one of his ex-teamates are going to grow a portion of their shrunken balls back and come out and provide some insite into the top doping program of the world 1999- present......

KKspeeder

Timoid. wrote:

Agreed on Gilbert. Hushovd I can see taking recovery products (a la Greg).

Would Gilbert monster everybody if they all weren't goofed up?

Gilbert isnt clean unless he is a cosmic anomaly.

Hushovd is jacked through the roof guys.... He "took a refill...."
You need a high crit to win ANYTHING at the top over 1 minute.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKqU7J3Mh7g

His average watts for this VO2 max TT was like 540 watts at THE LEAST.... You have to be jacked to do that. Autologous blood doping increases VO2 max and sustainable power by 20-30% and THATS what this is dudes.... Nobody clean did that good in the TT.

Christophe Bassons had an un-doped 85 VO2 max.....(higher than Lance's) Bassons would WARMUP like insanity before his short TT prologues and would not even come close.... As a larger rider ( 10kg more) he would have had some extra power but nothing to even come close to winning.... Not even close.

He could get 71st.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/results/1999 ... logue.html

He could ride and get some results in One Day races:

57th, finisher of Paris-Roubaix

http://www.cyclingnews.com/results/1999 ... sults.html

15th in some stages of the Regio Tour...

http://www.bike-zone.com/results/2000/a ... o00p.shtml

17th

http://www.bike-zone.com/results/2000/a ... o002.shtml

forearms Van Petegem

KKspeeder wrote:

forearms Van Petegem wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

MG - I think you're right about Gilbert - he seems to be a freak, and he's been speaking out about doping long before every other rider jumped on that bandwagon.

I'd also be happy to lay a bet on Hushovd being clean - the CA team was one of the good ones, and I wish they were still around.

Jaan Kirsipuu said in an Estonian paper, Hushovd was the only clean guy amongst the top tier. They all dope. That was his words to effect.

Ofcourse, Kirsipuu may have been protecting a mate on CA. And we know JV reckond Moreau was clean on CA "His hematocrit is only 43!" Well, that was BS, Moreau was doping on CA. May have been doing an Evans low scale program, or at times a no scale program. Evans might be on the no scale. Anyway, Moreau has been charging all career. No doubt. JV was wrong.

That statement has a lot of VALUE.... a very un-guarded comment...

JV hates Lance and was making Lance out as a Villain which HE IS. Lance has f-d over a lotta people over the years.... Eventually one of his ex-teamates are going to grow a portion of their shrunken balls back and come out and provide some insite into the top doping program of the world 1999- present......

KK, I have read all your stuff on Cutting Edge, but think you are wrong on lots of counts.

One, I dont think Evans was boosting when he tested at 17 or 18, a VO2 of around 92 or 93. Walker also tested the same. Was not charging.

OGrady and Aitken I doubt were charged when they tested at above 90. OGrady has definitely used through his winning period. Like all the rest.

I have strong suspicions on Evans. He manager is Rominger for gods sake. But the guy was not boosting at 18. You really need to get a drip, you are doing Decanio shit, any insight you offer, is lost by making these ridiculous assertions.

And you really need to get with the reality, after Armstrong, everyone has come into the Tour, around 43. Basso and Landis were testing at 43. I think even at the end of the Tour, Landis was only 47. Yes, we know what this means, his crit should have decreased. But to read what you have said, every rider comes in at 49. That was the 90's paradigm. The example of Basso has shown, they have moved onto other means, of getting the same 02 takeup, whilst only testing at a 43-45 crit. And I don't believe they can infuse pre stage, and deposit post stage. The process is too invasive. Ofcourse it happens and has happened on key stages, the Vuelta bus of Astana going missing with Vino and Kash, proves that this method, can work, and goes on. But not on each and every selective stage and the chronos. Just a few.

And also the riders are now chaperoned, after the finish, they do not have time to go and "rehydrate" by dumping blood or using expanders, and adding plasma.

So, either actually get some information that is on the money, or f' off with your bombastic b-shi!t. And I should know it when I see it, cos I am similarly hubristic and know-it-all on doping. The truth is, I only have a very rudimentary knowledge. Byt I know alot of what you write is utter crap.

Kléber

Bassons was "jacking" with altitude tents by the way.

He won a stage of the Dauphine Libere, the final stage in 1999. The overall that year was won by Vinokourov. The cyclingnews.com article from the day has a very unfortunate quote:
Both Vinokourov and Bassons are part of a new generation of riders that provide a fresh image in the face of the doping scandals.

KKspeeder

forearms Van Petegem wrote:

KKspeeder wrote:

forearms Van Petegem wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

MG - I think you're right about Gilbert - he seems to be a freak, and he's been speaking out about doping long before every other rider jumped on that bandwagon.

I'd also be happy to lay a bet on Hushovd being clean - the CA team was one of the good ones, and I wish they were still around.

Jaan Kirsipuu said in an Estonian paper, Hushovd was the only clean guy amongst the top tier. They all dope. That was his words to effect.

Ofcourse, Kirsipuu may have been protecting a mate on CA. And we know JV reckond Moreau was clean on CA "His hematocrit is only 43!" Well, that was BS, Moreau was doping on CA. May have been doing an Evans low scale program, or at times a no scale program. Evans might be on the no scale. Anyway, Moreau has been charging all career. No doubt. JV was wrong.

That statement has a lot of VALUE.... a very un-guarded comment...

JV hates Lance and was making Lance out as a Villain which HE IS. Lance has f-d over a lotta people over the years.... Eventually one of his ex-teamates are going to grow a portion of their shrunken balls back and come out and provide some insite into the top doping program of the world 1999- present......

KK, I have read all your stuff on Cutting Edge, but think you are wrong on lots of counts.

One, I dont think Evans was boosting when he tested at 17 or 18, a VO2 of around 92 or 93. Walker also tested the same. Was not charging.

OGrady and Aitken I doubt were charged when they tested at above 90. OGrady has definitely used through his winning period. Like all the rest.

I have strong suspicions on Evans. He manager is Rominger for gods sake. But the guy was not boosting at 18. You really need to get a drip, you are doing Decanio shoot, any insight you offer, is lost by making these ridiculous assertions.

And you really need to get with the reality, after Armstrong, everyone has come into the Tour, around 43. Basso and Landis were testing at 43.

So, either actually get some information that is on the money, or f' off with your bombastic b-shi!t. And I should know it when I see it, cos I am similarly hubristic and know-it-all on doping. The truth is, I only have a very rudimentary knowledge. Byt I know alot of what you write is utter crap.

First of all, take it EASY.... Its only a Forum!

Floyd blood doped with his own blood.... He won the Tour the year this happend:



There are NO HBOCs that mimic the effects of autologous blood doping. But.... A combo of the two is rocket fuel "bro"!

Floyd "came in" to the controls with a 47... Lance "came in" with a 43.... 3 units of packed red cells will give you a 10% boost.... And 4 or 5 units in the 3 hours between 9:00 A.M. controls and 12:00 start is NOT a problem.... Thats a 12-16% crit boost.... And having over 50 post-stage means little because you can claim dehydraion....

And.. AND "bro", its easy for him to come in with a 49 and say it was from living in his Cabin Colorado or his hypnoxic tent... he he he!....



And the corruption withing the UCI is terrible. Absolutely horrifying! You dont really know who is being "allowed" to dope and who isnt.... Take cycling with a grain of salt and not seriously...

Its all TV entertainment and this is just a message board forum of all things....

There are no HBOCs that give a HUGE "boost" like autologous blood doping... ANd if you would have read through all the cuttingedge forums on emergency OR blood transfusions you would realize HOW QUICKLY it can be done with blood pumps....

And.... Evans & his junior company at AIS were jacked through the roof if they tested at 93 VO2 maxes.... No way he has that un-doped at 17 years old or however old.... ANd the Australian Juniors were having group injections of horse-growth hormones & other heavy sh*t at 14-19 years old in their government funded public-housing units.....

http://sixtyminutesv2.ninemsn.com.au/ar ... ?id=259182

moray_gub

KK did you get your ass whupped when you tried a to be a pro ?

MG