WADA wants the purto bags

markwalker
markwalker Posts: 953
edited March 2009 in Pro race
does this mean other sports are potentialy in the firing line?
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id= ... mar02news2
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Comments

  • KKspeeder
    KKspeeder Posts: 111
    I dont they'll get them because the whole process line to "approve" that is corrupt and selective. cycling

    Cheers!
  • KKspeeder
    KKspeeder Posts: 111
    Allan Davis
    Joseba Beloki
    Alberto Contador
    David Etxebarría
    Isidro Nozal
    Unai Osa
    Sérgio Paulinho
    Michele Scarponi
    Marcos Serrano
    Ángel Vicioso
    Vicente Ballester
    David Bernabeu
    David Blanco
    José Adrián Bonilla
    Juan Gomis
    Eladio Jiménez
    David Latasa
    Javier Pascual Rodríguez
    Rubén Plaza
    Francisco Mancebo
    Constantino Zaballa
    Alejandro Valverde
    Ivan Basso
    José Ignacio Gutiérrez
    José Enrique Gutiérrez
    Santiago Botero
    Carlos Zárate
    Koldo Gil
    Óscar Sevilla
    Tyler Hamilton
    Jörg Jaksche
    Carlos García Quesada
    Michele Bartoli
    Ángel Casero
    Roberto Heras
    Santiago Pérez
    Marco Pantani
    Many were cleared but code names dont lie.

    Cheers :wink:
  • Im pretty certain (actually i know) Allan Davis offered his blood to be matched against the blood taken. I would think thats a pretty good indication that the likely hood of him having been a patient where very slim in at all.
    Take care of the luxuries and the necessites will take care of themselves.
  • don key
    don key Posts: 494
    edited March 2009
    Im pretty certain (actually i know) Allan Davis offered his blood to be matched against the blood taken. I would think thats a pretty good indication that the likely hood of him having been a patient where very slim in at all.

    Double bluff, they nearly all deny it until the crocodiles are coming out of the water. There are different levels of denial and stating your intention without actually having any at all is common inhuman naturale.

    Having said this , I am not saying Allan is filthy, just that it is a sewer we are observing and trying to emulate of a Sunday on Spag and espresso, failure being judged on how long it takes you to stop talking to yourself on the driving yourself nuts trip home.Also, going on what Kleber says below, those guilty of intent often behave in a more innocent than thou fashion, Oscars all round.
  • Kléber
    Kléber Posts: 6,842
    Manolo Saiz was caught buying materials for his Liberty Seguros team. Perhaps these were destined for selected riders but just because no blood from Davis was banked does not mean he was outside the "training plans" and medical programmes of Dr Fuentes.
  • I dont disagree, and yes they all say how clean they are up to and even after they are busted. Having said that i think that saying here take a DNA sample and check is one of those things you would want to be a 100% certain you were clean or that they had no chance what so ever of matching you. Kleber if he didnt have blood banked then what would Fuentes been doing? Not saying his clean but i dont look at him as any less clean than anyone else in the peloton.
    Take care of the luxuries and the necessites will take care of themselves.
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    Kléber wrote:
    Manolo Saiz was caught buying materials for his Liberty Seguros team. Perhaps these were destined for selected riders but just because no blood from Davis was banked does not mean he was outside the "training plans" and medical programmes of Dr Fuentes.

    So basically its guilty by nothing other than association then.......mmmm


    MG
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • le_patron
    le_patron Posts: 493
    don key wrote:
    Im pretty certain (actually i know) Allan Davis offered his blood to be matched against the blood taken. I would think thats a pretty good indication that the likely hood of him having been a patient where very slim in at all.

    Double bluff, they nearly all deny it until the crocodiles are coming out of the water.

    Birillo did that when he joined Disco....when everybody is listening (especially prospective employers) offer to take blood tests etc. You don't need to have any intention to actually do it, might get caught.

    There's nothing that a genuinely clean rider can do, speak up : suspicious, say nothing : suspicious, offer proactive tests : suspicious.....best just to get dropped in the mountains and finish near the back in the TT's.
  • MG, you are right it is a bit cynical. However for the last 10 years it's been shown that the cynics are generally right. I think cycling enthusiasts are entitled to be cynical and trust nobody and especially not to trust what anyone in pro cycling says. For me the sad thing is that the pro peleton and it's administrators (Wiggum et al) have let it get to a state where the default setting for fans is mistrust and cycnicism. Someone should have done something long ago about this decline.
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 21,647
    Moray Gub wrote:
    Kléber wrote:
    Manolo Saiz was caught buying materials for his Liberty Seguros team. Perhaps these were destined for selected riders but just because no blood from Davis was banked does not mean he was outside the "training plans" and medical programmes of Dr Fuentes.

    So basically its guilty by nothing other than association then.......mmmm
    MG

    No.
    He was caught buying thousands of Euro's of doping products for his dog.
    Obviously, this is why he is now facing criminal charges.

    It is not guilt by association, but a deep suspicion.
    Take careful note of what Kleber has posted and that's what he says.
    The whole squad fell under the same cloud.
    The way out is DNA comparisions.

    As don key says, offers of "good faith" have been made by a number of riders in the case, but I can't recall an actual sample being taken for comparison.
    Empty words forming part of the denial process.

    In the case of some riders, I'm quite sure that the Spanish powers will be quite happy for it to remain that way.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • dave_1
    dave_1 Posts: 9,512
    Moray Gub wrote:
    Kléber wrote:
    Manolo Saiz was caught buying materials for his Liberty Seguros team. Perhaps these were destined for selected riders but just because no blood from Davis was banked does not mean he was outside the "training plans" and medical programmes of Dr Fuentes.

    So basically its guilty by nothing other than association then.......mmmm


    MG

    indeed...guilt by association is used by the likes of classics expert AndyP and co...and some others on here when it comes to LA, his team etc....but we dare not bring it up when for example riders like Cancellera used Cecchini...you get dismissed as a tw@t for that.. :)
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,048
    If the hat fits Dave_1. :wink:

    I'd love to see the statement where I said Cancellara was clean. He rode for Ferreti's team and for Riis. Hmmm. Well known clean teams there.

    I think it's easier to assume that every professional cyclist is doping as on the balance of probabilities they probably are. It might be improving, and I hope it is, but generally when a criminal investigation is opened then evidence of dope taking is uncovered.
  • don key
    don key Posts: 494
    andyp wrote:
    If the hat fits Dave_1. :wink:

    I'd love to see the statement where I said Cancellara was clean. He rode for Ferreti's team and for Riis. Hmmm. Well known clean teams there.

    I think it's easier to assume that every professional cyclist is doping as on the balance of probabilities they probably are. It might be improving, and I hope it is, but generally when a criminal investigation is opened then evidence of dope taking is uncovered.

    What Cancelara gets up to on a bike is more outrageous than anything Flandis or the rest of the pelotbomb ever did . I saw him doing it in Liege in 2004 and have slowly realised that it's miraculous there are no puncture marks on either of his three tyres, yes, including the spare.
  • Kléber
    Kléber Posts: 6,842
    Moray Gub wrote:
    So basically its guilty by nothing other than association then.......mmmm
    I think you read too much into my post, I was not condemning him, just saying that Saiz was caughy buying a lot of steroids and hormones, something that wouldn't turn up in a blood test.

    So talk of a blood or DNA test is not the same as total exoneration and a rider who was under the management of Saiz has a lot to answer for, it involves a leap of faith to think a rider on a team renowned for its sophisticated doping methods was kept away from everything. This does not imply guilt, just a lot of unanswered questions, that's all.

    To view Puerto as a blood doping affair only is wrong, Fuentes is linked to the cyclists because he was storing their blood. But apparently his other clients, non-cyclists, were not using this method but the more traditional hormone and steroid use. So just because you didn't have a blood bag in his fridge does not mean you were not involved. Something a few footballers, tennis players and athletes might be reminded of soon...
  • micron
    micron Posts: 1,843
    Yes, let's hope that WADA is interested in all those other sports as well - or will the UCI allow cycling to be scapegoated again? There really is something very rotten in the state of l'Aigle
  • There is one big upshot of watching pro cycling: the public's knowledge of law, hematology and endocrinology has never been better.
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    Moray Gub wrote:
    Kléber wrote:
    Manolo Saiz was caught buying materials for his Liberty Seguros team. Perhaps these were destined for selected riders but just because no blood from Davis was banked does not mean he was outside the "training plans" and medical programmes of Dr Fuentes.

    So basically its guilty by nothing other than association then.......mmmm
    MG

    No.
    He was caught buying thousands of Euro's of doping products for his dog.
    Obviously, this is why he is now facing criminal charges.

    It is not guilt by association, but a deep suspicion.
    Take careful note of what Kleber has posted and that's what he says.
    The whole squad fell under the same cloud.
    The way out is DNA comparisions.

    A.

    I was talking about Alan Davis not Manilo Saiz take careful note of what MG says.

    MG
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    There is one big upshot of watching pro cycling: the public's knowledge of law, hematology and endocrinology has never been better.

    Well thats certainly the case for the experts in here anyway, or so they would like you to believe.

    MG
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    Kléber wrote:
    Moray Gub wrote:
    But apparently his other clients, non-cyclists, were not using this method but the more traditional hormone and steroid use. So just because you didn't have a blood bag in his fridge does not mean you were not involved. Something a few footballers, tennis players and athletes might be reminded of soon...

    There is absolutely nothing to condemn AD on other than association to MS. So the point i made mainly that he stands guilty by association in the court of King Kleber.



    MG
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,048
    Moray Gub wrote:
    There is absolutely nothing to condemn AD on other than association to MS. So the point i made mainly that he stands guilty by association in the court of King Kleber.
    Is there any evidence to suggest that the team wide doping programme that Saiz operated at all his teams was optional?

    Put it this way, if you were a team manager running a team which operated such a policy would you hire riders who didn't want to be part of it? That would be a waste of money surely?
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,129
    andyp wrote:
    Moray Gub wrote:
    There is absolutely nothing to condemn AD on other than association to MS. So the point i made mainly that he stands guilty by association in the court of King Kleber.
    Is there any evidence to suggest that the team wide doping programme that Saiz operated at all his teams was optional?

    Put it this way, if you were a team manager running a team which operated such a policy would you hire riders who didn't want to be part of it? That would be a waste of money surely?

    So Christophe Bassons was dirty all along then. He must have been. He rode for Festina.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 21,647
    Moray Gub wrote:
    I was talking about Alan Davis not Manilo Saiz take careful note of what MG says.

    MG

    Why?
    You don't take any notice of what others say. Kleber was clear.
    A Glib response.
    It seems that people can't even express doubts, without getting a verbal castigation from you.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • Kléber
    Kléber Posts: 6,842
    RichN95 wrote:
    So Christophe Bassons was dirty all along then. He must have been. He rode for Festina.
    Of course not. The point is that Bassons stood out a mile. Even before the Festina scandal he was the "clean one", speaking out against doping and lamenting the pressure on riders to take EPO, just to be able to do their job.

    I've never heard Davis call Saiz a rat for pushing him out of work, I've never heard him bemoan the doping culture in Liberty Seguros.

    I'll repeat again, all this does not imply guilt, only he has plenty of questions to answer. Did he know what his team and roommates were up to? Had he heard of Saiz's reputation before signing? What was his relationship like with Neil Stephens? Did he ever meet Fuentes?
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,048
    RichN95 wrote:
    So Christophe Bassons was dirty all along then. He must have been. He rode for Festina.
    Despite riding for a team with an institutionalised doping system, Bassons spoke out about widespread doping and was castigated by his peers for doing so. His pro career lasted just 5 seasons.

    Allan Davis hasn't, to my knowledge, been a vociferous critic of doping. He's gone from one team with a dodgy reputation to another, keeping quiet on the issue.

    I don't know if he doped or not but I think it's reasonable to ask questions given the teams he's ridden for.
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    andyp wrote:
    Moray Gub wrote:
    There is absolutely nothing to condemn AD on other than association to MS. So the point i made mainly that he stands guilty by association in the court of King Kleber.
    Is there any evidence to suggest that the team wide doping programme that Saiz operated at all his teams was optional?

    Is there evidence to suggest it wasnt optional ? Is there evdience out there that says AD was forced to participate in drug programme ?

    MG
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    Moray Gub wrote:
    I was talking about Alan Davis not Manilo Saiz take careful note of what MG says.

    MG

    Why?
    You don't take any notice of what others say. Kleber was clear.
    A Glib response.
    It seems that people can't even express doubts, without getting a verbal castigation from you.

    Its not a glib response he was implying guilty by association, a level of guilt he only reserves for certain riders. Its the inconsistency in here that makes me laugh .


    MG
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,048
    Moray Gub wrote:
    Is there evidence to suggest it wasnt optional ? Is there evdience out there that says AD was forced to participate in drug programme ?
    No, there's not. However, on the balance of probabilities it is more likely that he doped than didn't dope, at least if the Festina example is typical.

    He's not alone though is he? I can think of a member of a current team with a strong anti-doping ethos who rode for Liberty Seguros and at least two other teams believed to have had a doping programme in place.
  • Kléber
    Kléber Posts: 6,842
    Moray Gub wrote:
    he was implying guilty by association
    I think you are leaping to conclusions. Try not to read between the lines. If in doubt, just ask me by posting on here or even use the "PM" feature to ask.

    Like I say, Fuentes was not just running a blood doping scheme. So offering to supply your DNA to be matched against the blood storied in Fuente's fridges is not proof of innocence, it is only proof that you didn't have blood stored with Fuentes, that's all it means. Anything else beyond that, whether Davis was doping or whether he likes jazz music, hates Vegemite, that is just a guess. Or do you know? :wink:
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    Kléber wrote:
    Moray Gub wrote:
    he was implying guilty by association
    I think you are leaping to conclusions. Try not to read between the lines. If in doubt, just ask me by posting on here or even use the "PM" feature to ask.

    Like I say, Fuentes was not just running a blood doping scheme. So offering to supply your DNA to be matched against the blood storied in Fuente's fridges is not proof of innocence, it is only proof that you didn't have blood stored with Fuentes, that's all it means. Anything else beyond that, whether Davis was doping or whether he likes jazz music, hates Vegemite, that is just a guess. Or do you know? :wink:


    So how does he go about dispoving your guilt by association line of thought (and yes thats exactly how i see it i dont need to pm you to think that) if your not willing to accept a negative DNA match and there is no evidence anywhere else to say he doped.
    So to sum up its GBA.

    MG
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • Arkibal
    Arkibal Posts: 850
    Moray Gub wrote:
    Kléber wrote:
    Moray Gub wrote:
    he was implying guilty by association
    I think you are leaping to conclusions. Try not to read between the lines. If in doubt, just ask me by posting on here or even use the "PM" feature to ask.

    Like I say, Fuentes was not just running a blood doping scheme. So offering to supply your DNA to be matched against the blood storied in Fuente's fridges is not proof of innocence, it is only proof that you didn't have blood stored with Fuentes, that's all it means. Anything else beyond that, whether Davis was doping or whether he likes jazz music, hates Vegemite, that is just a guess. Or do you know? :wink:


    So how does he go about dispoving your guilt by association line of thought (and yes thats exactly how i see it i dont need to pm you to think that) if your not willing to accept a negative DNA match and there is no evidence anywhere else to say he doped.
    So to sum up its GBA.

    MG

    +1 MG