WADA wants the purto bags

markwalker

does this mean other sports are potentialy in the firing line?
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id= ... mar02news2

KKspeeder

I dont they'll get them because the whole process line to "approve" that is corrupt and selective. cycling

Cheers!

KKspeeder

Allan Davis
Joseba Beloki
Alberto Contador
David Etxebarría
Isidro Nozal
Unai Osa
Sérgio Paulinho
Michele Scarponi
Marcos Serrano
Ángel Vicioso
Vicente Ballester
David Bernabeu
David Blanco
José Adrián Bonilla
Juan Gomis
Eladio Jiménez
David Latasa
Javier Pascual Rodríguez
Rubén Plaza
Francisco Mancebo
Constantino Zaballa
Alejandro Valverde
Ivan Basso
José Ignacio Gutiérrez
José Enrique Gutiérrez
Santiago Botero
Carlos Zárate
Koldo Gil
Óscar Sevilla
Tyler Hamilton
Jörg Jaksche
Carlos García Quesada
Michele Bartoli
Ángel Casero
Roberto Heras
Santiago Pérez
Marco Pantani
Many were cleared but code names dont lie.

Cheers

richard wants a baum

Im pretty certain (actually i know) Allan Davis offered his blood to be matched against the blood taken. I would think thats a pretty good indication that the likely hood of him having been a patient where very slim in at all.

don key

richard wants a baum wrote:

Im pretty certain (actually i know) Allan Davis offered his blood to be matched against the blood taken. I would think thats a pretty good indication that the likely hood of him having been a patient where very slim in at all.

Double bluff, they nearly all deny it until the crocodiles are coming out of the water. There are different levels of denial and stating your intention without actually having any at all is common inhuman naturale.

Having said this , I am not saying Allan is filthy, just that it is a sewer we are observing and trying to emulate of a Sunday on Spag and espresso, failure being judged on how long it takes you to stop talking to yourself on the driving yourself nuts trip home.Also, going on what Kleber says below, those guilty of intent often behave in a more innocent than thou fashion, Oscars all round.

Kléber

Manolo Saiz was caught buying materials for his Liberty Seguros team. Perhaps these were destined for selected riders but just because no blood from Davis was banked does not mean he was outside the "training plans" and medical programmes of Dr Fuentes.

richard wants a baum

I dont disagree, and yes they all say how clean they are up to and even after they are busted. Having said that i think that saying here take a DNA sample and check is one of those things you would want to be a 100% certain you were clean or that they had no chance what so ever of matching you. Kleber if he didnt have blood banked then what would Fuentes been doing? Not saying his clean but i dont look at him as any less clean than anyone else in the peloton.

moray_gub

Kléber wrote:

Manolo Saiz was caught buying materials for his Liberty Seguros team. Perhaps these were destined for selected riders but just because no blood from Davis was banked does not mean he was outside the "training plans" and medical programmes of Dr Fuentes.

So basically its guilty by nothing other than association then.......mmmm


MG

le_patron

don key wrote:

richard wants a baum wrote:

Im pretty certain (actually i know) Allan Davis offered his blood to be matched against the blood taken. I would think thats a pretty good indication that the likely hood of him having been a patient where very slim in at all.

Double bluff, they nearly all deny it until the crocodiles are coming out of the water.

Birillo did that when he joined Disco....when everybody is listening (especially prospective employers) offer to take blood tests etc. You don't need to have any intention to actually do it, might get caught.

There's nothing that a genuinely clean rider can do, speak up : suspicious, say nothing : suspicious, offer proactive tests : suspicious.....best just to get dropped in the mountains and finish near the back in the TT's.

skavanagh.bikeradar

MG, you are right it is a bit cynical. However for the last 10 years it's been shown that the cynics are generally right. I think cycling enthusiasts are entitled to be cynical and trust nobody and especially not to trust what anyone in pro cycling says. For me the sad thing is that the pro peleton and it's administrators (Wiggum et al) have let it get to a state where the default setting for fans is mistrust and cycnicism. Someone should have done something long ago about this decline.

blazing_saddles

Moray Gub wrote:

Kléber wrote:

Manolo Saiz was caught buying materials for his Liberty Seguros team. Perhaps these were destined for selected riders but just because no blood from Davis was banked does not mean he was outside the "training plans" and medical programmes of Dr Fuentes.

So basically its guilty by nothing other than association then.......mmmm
MG

No.
He was caught buying thousands of Euro's of doping products for his dog.
Obviously, this is why he is now facing criminal charges.

It is not guilt by association, but a deep suspicion.
Take careful note of what Kleber has posted and that's what he says.
The whole squad fell under the same cloud.
The way out is DNA comparisions.

As don key says, offers of "good faith" have been made by a number of riders in the case, but I can't recall an actual sample being taken for comparison.
Empty words forming part of the denial process.

In the case of some riders, I'm quite sure that the Spanish powers will be quite happy for it to remain that way.

dave_1

Moray Gub wrote:

Kléber wrote:

Manolo Saiz was caught buying materials for his Liberty Seguros team. Perhaps these were destined for selected riders but just because no blood from Davis was banked does not mean he was outside the "training plans" and medical programmes of Dr Fuentes.

So basically its guilty by nothing other than association then.......mmmm


MG

indeed...guilt by association is used by the likes of classics expert AndyP and co...and some others on here when it comes to LA, his team etc....but we dare not bring it up when for example riders like Cancellera used Cecchini...you get dismissed as a tw@t for that..

andyp

If the hat fits Dave_1.

I'd love to see the statement where I said Cancellara was clean. He rode for Ferreti's team and for Riis. Hmmm. Well known clean teams there.

I think it's easier to assume that every professional cyclist is doping as on the balance of probabilities they probably are. It might be improving, and I hope it is, but generally when a criminal investigation is opened then evidence of dope taking is uncovered.

don key

andyp wrote:

If the hat fits Dave_1.

I'd love to see the statement where I said Cancellara was clean. He rode for Ferreti's team and for Riis. Hmmm. Well known clean teams there.

I think it's easier to assume that every professional cyclist is doping as on the balance of probabilities they probably are. It might be improving, and I hope it is, but generally when a criminal investigation is opened then evidence of dope taking is uncovered.

What Cancelara gets up to on a bike is more outrageous than anything Flandis or the rest of the pelotbomb ever did . I saw him doing it in Liege in 2004 and have slowly realised that it's miraculous there are no puncture marks on either of his three tyres, yes, including the spare.

Kléber

Moray Gub wrote:

So basically its guilty by nothing other than association then.......mmmm

I think you read too much into my post, I was not condemning him, just saying that Saiz was caughy buying a lot of steroids and hormones, something that wouldn't turn up in a blood test.

So talk of a blood or DNA test is not the same as total exoneration and a rider who was under the management of Saiz has a lot to answer for, it involves a leap of faith to think a rider on a team renowned for its sophisticated doping methods was kept away from everything. This does not imply guilt, just a lot of unanswered questions, that's all.

To view Puerto as a blood doping affair only is wrong, Fuentes is linked to the cyclists because he was storing their blood. But apparently his other clients, non-cyclists, were not using this method but the more traditional hormone and steroid use. So just because you didn't have a blood bag in his fridge does not mean you were not involved. Something a few footballers, tennis players and athletes might be reminded of soon...

micron

Yes, let's hope that WADA is interested in all those other sports as well - or will the UCI allow cycling to be scapegoated again? There really is something very rotten in the state of l'Aigle

Martin Van Nostrand

There is one big upshot of watching pro cycling: the public's knowledge of law, hematology and endocrinology has never been better.

moray_gub

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Moray Gub wrote:

Kléber wrote:

Manolo Saiz was caught buying materials for his Liberty Seguros team. Perhaps these were destined for selected riders but just because no blood from Davis was banked does not mean he was outside the "training plans" and medical programmes of Dr Fuentes.

So basically its guilty by nothing other than association then.......mmmm
MG

No.
He was caught buying thousands of Euro's of doping products for his dog.
Obviously, this is why he is now facing criminal charges.

It is not guilt by association, but a deep suspicion.
Take careful note of what Kleber has posted and that's what he says.
The whole squad fell under the same cloud.
The way out is DNA comparisions.

A.

I was talking about Alan Davis not Manilo Saiz take careful note of what MG says.

MG

moray_gub

Martin Van Nostrand wrote:

There is one big upshot of watching pro cycling: the public's knowledge of law, hematology and endocrinology has never been better.

Well thats certainly the case for the experts in here anyway, or so they would like you to believe.

MG

moray_gub

Kléber wrote:

Moray Gub wrote:

But apparently his other clients, non-cyclists, were not using this method but the more traditional hormone and steroid use. So just because you didn't have a blood bag in his fridge does not mean you were not involved. Something a few footballers, tennis players and athletes might be reminded of soon...

There is absolutely nothing to condemn AD on other than association to MS. So the point i made mainly that he stands guilty by association in the court of King Kleber.



MG

andyp

Moray Gub wrote:

There is absolutely nothing to condemn AD on other than association to MS. So the point i made mainly that he stands guilty by association in the court of King Kleber.

Is there any evidence to suggest that the team wide doping programme that Saiz operated at all his teams was optional?

Put it this way, if you were a team manager running a team which operated such a policy would you hire riders who didn't want to be part of it? That would be a waste of money surely?

RichN95.

andyp wrote:

Moray Gub wrote:

There is absolutely nothing to condemn AD on other than association to MS. So the point i made mainly that he stands guilty by association in the court of King Kleber.

Is there any evidence to suggest that the team wide doping programme that Saiz operated at all his teams was optional?

Put it this way, if you were a team manager running a team which operated such a policy would you hire riders who didn't want to be part of it? That would be a waste of money surely?

So Christophe Bassons was dirty all along then. He must have been. He rode for Festina.

blazing_saddles

Moray Gub wrote:

I was talking about Alan Davis not Manilo Saiz take careful note of what MG says.

MG

Why?
You don't take any notice of what others say. Kleber was clear.
A Glib response.
It seems that people can't even express doubts, without getting a verbal castigation from you.

Kléber

RichN95 wrote:

So Christophe Bassons was dirty all along then. He must have been. He rode for Festina.

Of course not. The point is that Bassons stood out a mile. Even before the Festina scandal he was the "clean one", speaking out against doping and lamenting the pressure on riders to take EPO, just to be able to do their job.

I've never heard Davis call Saiz a rat for pushing him out of work, I've never heard him bemoan the doping culture in Liberty Seguros.

I'll repeat again, all this does not imply guilt, only he has plenty of questions to answer. Did he know what his team and roommates were up to? Had he heard of Saiz's reputation before signing? What was his relationship like with Neil Stephens? Did he ever meet Fuentes?

andyp

RichN95 wrote:

So Christophe Bassons was dirty all along then. He must have been. He rode for Festina.

Despite riding for a team with an institutionalised doping system, Bassons spoke out about widespread doping and was castigated by his peers for doing so. His pro career lasted just 5 seasons.

Allan Davis hasn't, to my knowledge, been a vociferous critic of doping. He's gone from one team with a dodgy reputation to another, keeping quiet on the issue.

I don't know if he doped or not but I think it's reasonable to ask questions given the teams he's ridden for.

moray_gub

andyp wrote:

Moray Gub wrote:

There is absolutely nothing to condemn AD on other than association to MS. So the point i made mainly that he stands guilty by association in the court of King Kleber.

Is there any evidence to suggest that the team wide doping programme that Saiz operated at all his teams was optional?

Is there evidence to suggest it wasnt optional ? Is there evdience out there that says AD was forced to participate in drug programme ?

MG

moray_gub

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Moray Gub wrote:

I was talking about Alan Davis not Manilo Saiz take careful note of what MG says.

MG

Why?
You don't take any notice of what others say. Kleber was clear.
A Glib response.
It seems that people can't even express doubts, without getting a verbal castigation from you.

Its not a glib response he was implying guilty by association, a level of guilt he only reserves for certain riders. Its the inconsistency in here that makes me laugh .


MG

andyp

Moray Gub wrote:

Is there evidence to suggest it wasnt optional ? Is there evdience out there that says AD was forced to participate in drug programme ?

No, there's not. However, on the balance of probabilities it is more likely that he doped than didn't dope, at least if the Festina example is typical.

He's not alone though is he? I can think of a member of a current team with a strong anti-doping ethos who rode for Liberty Seguros and at least two other teams believed to have had a doping programme in place.

Kléber

Moray Gub wrote:

he was implying guilty by association

I think you are leaping to conclusions. Try not to read between the lines. If in doubt, just ask me by posting on here or even use the "PM" feature to ask.

Like I say, Fuentes was not just running a blood doping scheme. So offering to supply your DNA to be matched against the blood storied in Fuente's fridges is not proof of innocence, it is only proof that you didn't have blood stored with Fuentes, that's all it means. Anything else beyond that, whether Davis was doping or whether he likes jazz music, hates Vegemite, that is just a guess. Or do you know?

moray_gub

Kléber wrote:

Moray Gub wrote:

he was implying guilty by association

I think you are leaping to conclusions. Try not to read between the lines. If in doubt, just ask me by posting on here or even use the "PM" feature to ask.

Like I say, Fuentes was not just running a blood doping scheme. So offering to supply your DNA to be matched against the blood storied in Fuente's fridges is not proof of innocence, it is only proof that you didn't have blood stored with Fuentes, that's all it means. Anything else beyond that, whether Davis was doping or whether he likes jazz music, hates Vegemite, that is just a guess. Or do you know?

So how does he go about dispoving your guilt by association line of thought (and yes thats exactly how i see it i dont need to pm you to think that) if your not willing to accept a negative DNA match and there is no evidence anywhere else to say he doped.
So to sum up its GBA.

MG

Arkibal

Moray Gub wrote:

Kléber wrote:

Moray Gub wrote:

he was implying guilty by association

I think you are leaping to conclusions. Try not to read between the lines. If in doubt, just ask me by posting on here or even use the "PM" feature to ask.

Like I say, Fuentes was not just running a blood doping scheme. So offering to supply your DNA to be matched against the blood storied in Fuente's fridges is not proof of innocence, it is only proof that you didn't have blood stored with Fuentes, that's all it means. Anything else beyond that, whether Davis was doping or whether he likes jazz music, hates Vegemite, that is just a guess. Or do you know?

So how does he go about dispoving your guilt by association line of thought (and yes thats exactly how i see it i dont need to pm you to think that) if your not willing to accept a negative DNA match and there is no evidence anywhere else to say he doped.
So to sum up its GBA.

MG

+1 MG