Paul Kimmage rattles Laid back Lance!!

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Comments

  • 3SpeedsRtheonlyBike
    3SpeedsRtheonlyBike Posts: 24
    I don't think people really dislike Floyd; in a way, we can relate, caught in the act, caught in the wheels of the way the sports runs after all it's not like any of these kinds are really committing violent felonies. I read somewhere Floyd talked about as the "likeable scoundrel" and he does kind of seem that way.

    With Lance, it's someone who plays to the hilt, that he's innocent, that he's such a great athlete of which he must be, if a lot of the other riders are also using. In some ways, with him it's like he's saying "Come and get me, I dare ya" and playing in ways a Saint yet, his personal life seems to conflict with that. He's not very humble, self-effacing or anything. I mean even if and it is an open question to many, used substances for 7 years and won, there could be ways to be a more likeable individual.

    Millar's somewhat likeable, Carrot top Floyd is to some extent, Hamilton, riding the Olympics with a lock of his dogs hair, all of this while Lance is a bit arrogant and confrontational. And these are just Americans except for Millar, I always kind of liked watching Jan, Vino and others. Lots of Rasmussen fans around as well.

    The bbc boards will filter out statements that would look outright slanderous or just too bold though there is room for casting doubt. Lance fans could do well to go there.
  • Kléber
    Kléber Posts: 6,842
    3SpeedsRtheonlyBike wrote:
    I read somewhere Floyd talked about as the "likeable scoundrel" and he does kind of seem that way.

    With Lance, it's someone who plays to the hilt, that he's innocent...
    I thought Landis still maintains to the hilt that he is innocent? Since when did he stick his hands up and say "aww, shucks, you got me, I darn knew it would happen some day"
  • 3SpeedsRtheonlyBike
    3SpeedsRtheonlyBike Posts: 24
    Kléber wrote:
    3SpeedsRtheonlyBike wrote:
    I read somewhere Floyd talked about as the "likeable scoundrel" and he does kind of seem that way.

    With Lance, it's someone who plays to the hilt, that he's innocent...
    I thought Landis still maintains to the hilt that he is innocent? Since when did he stick his hands up and say "aww, shucks, you got me, I darn knew it would happen some day"

    I'm not defending him. I guess that's the only way for him to play it in possibly his eyes.

    I find problems with him, Bicycling magazine did a cover story on him and his defence. If I were fortunate enough to make the cover of that magazine for some reason, I guarantee you, I wouldn't open up the conversation dropping the f-bomb :lol: , I know that is humourous but still, it does stand to reason. These guys should have played it straight laced, throw themselves on the mercy of the court.

    (be gone for awhile if there is an immediate response)

    CAS busted the heck out of him and I have another CAS case, I want to probably put under the WADA thread. Maybe I'll get to it this weekend.
  • aurelio_-_banned
    aurelio_-_banned Posts: 1,317
    3SpeedsRtheonlyBike wrote:
    I don't think people really dislike Floyd
    Personally, I think he is almost as bad as Armstrong. His blatant denials in the face of overwhelming evidence, his resort to xenophobic anti-French 'conspiracy' theories, his attempts to undermine the whole system of doping control, from the labs to the tests themselves and his willingness to pay high-flying lawyers to exploit any minor loop hole or technicality have set the cause of eradicating doping from the sport back by years. Oh, and he is a doper to boot!
    3SpeedsRtheonlyBike wrote:
    With Lance, it's someone who plays to the hilt, that he's innocent...
    And how is Fraud Landis any different in this respect?
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    aurelio wrote:
    dennisn wrote:
    Got an idea. How about we switch things around and get aurelio, micron, etc. to take on the job of defending Lance and the rest of us do the slamming. It would improve everyone's debating skills,
    Could be fun. [Enter Armstrong fan-boy mode]

    Whadda mean Lance doped NO WAY MAN Just look at his wikipedia page and you will see that Lance had a GODDAMN BIG HEART he is a GENETIC FREAK man that's all, not like those pinko commie faggot froggies there just out to get Lance cos THEY HATE HIM and cant bear to SEE A REAL WINNER like Lance. NO WAY would Lance dope he had cancer and if you had cancer NO WAY would you dope.

    GO LANCE and GOD BLESS AMERICA.

    [/Armstrong fan-boy mode]

    Over to you Dennis... :wink:

    Your rampant anti americanism doesnt really do you any favours. I suspect thats what this is really all about.

    MG
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    Blazing Saddles wrote:
    Oh, I have......seen hundreds of posts exactly like Aurelio's.
    Fortunately, not by hundreds of fanboys, just a handful of extremists on various cycling forums.
    Actually, I think they hit more of a "peak", when "Innocent" Floyd was the flavour of the month.

    This is a pretty "soft core" site, on both sides, in that respect.

    However, the number of xenophobic rants increases, when one reads US based articles on LA and their follow up comments.
    A little knowledge and all that.......

    A lot of opinions on Lance particularly against him are driven by xenophobia.

    MG
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • colint
    colint Posts: 1,707
    This is so boring, tiresome and pointless that I almost bought a golf mag today. You see what you people are doing to me !! GOLF FFS. Now let it go, PLEEEEEEASE
    Planet X N2A
    Trek Cobia 29er
  • rockmount
    rockmount Posts: 761
    OK dope sleuths ... just so as we know, and for future reference, who of today's riders are dopers ?

    I'm sure I'm not alone in wanting to know, after all how else will I know who to cheer for, and admire ..


    :wink::wink:
    .. who said that, internet forum people ?
  • micron
    micron Posts: 1,843
    And what about the 'French Conspiracy' - that and any number of anti-French comments don't count as xenpophobic, I assume?

    Actually, there is something that would convonce me to change my mind and that's retests of the 99 samples, under conditions set by Armstrong. If they came back clean in the face of the LNDD findings then it would be difficult to accept he wasn't clean. And if, on top of that, he posted all the parameters of his recent tests with a clear explanation of how they show he's clean then I would accept that. But half measures, and over the top answers to innocent questions don't contribute to an air of openness.

    Armstrong can prove he's clean - some may argue he shouldn't have to - but he could quite easily put a spoke in the arguments of those who don't believe the miracle.

    I'm quite open to changing my mind but, like those who want proof of his doping, I'd like to see the proof that he's not.
  • aurelio_-_banned
    aurelio_-_banned Posts: 1,317
    Moray Gub wrote:
    A lot of opinions on Lance particularly against him are driven by xenophobia.
    If this were true it would only be fitting, given that Pharmstrong has so often fed and exploited anti-French xenophobia in order to strengthen his position....
  • camerone
    camerone Posts: 1,232
    rockmount wrote:
    OK dope sleuths ... just so as we know, and for future reference, who of today's riders are dopers ?

    I'm sure I'm not alone in wanting to know, after all how else will I know who to cheer for, and admire ..


    :wink::wink:

    Well Kimmage was very pleased with Slipstream last summer, so thats them 100% clean obviously. or is it........i am sure i have seen some slight finger pointing towards VdV on this forum simply by his assosiation with previous teams/teammates . therefore obviously he and all his current teammates are dopers. isn't that how it works? :idea:
  • rockmount
    rockmount Posts: 761
    Another rider I love to watch, and admire is Jens Voigt, what's the verdict on him, dope sleuths ?? he's been around a while. How does he fit in with the guilty by association / just must have / couldn't not have / set of criteria ???
    .. who said that, internet forum people ?
  • Kléber
    Kléber Posts: 6,842
    camerone wrote:
    Well Kimmage was very pleased with Slipstream last summer, so thats them 100% clean obviously. or is it........i am sure i have seen some slight finger pointing towards VdV on this forum simply by his assosiation with previous teams/teammates . therefore obviously he and all his current teammates are dopers. isn't that how it works? :idea:
    What's your point. Clearly riders like Millar have doped in the past, we know that. Vaughters too admitted this in a roundabout way. Have they changed? Well it seems they're trying their hardest.

    I'd look to a lot of Italian and Spanish teams for unreformed riding.
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    micron wrote:
    And what about the 'French Conspiracy' - that and any number of anti-French comments don't count as xenpophobic, I assume?

    Actually, there is something that would convonce me to change my mind and that's retests of the 99 samples, under conditions set by Armstrong. If they came back clean in the face of the LNDD findings then it would be difficult to accept he wasn't clean. And if, on top of that, he posted all the parameters of his recent tests with a clear explanation of how they show he's clean then I would accept that. But half measures, and over the top answers to innocent questions don't contribute to an air of openness.

    Armstrong can prove he's clean - some may argue he shouldn't have to - but he could quite easily put a spoke in the arguments of those who don't believe the miracle.

    I'm quite open to changing my mind but, like those who want proof of his doping, I'd like to see the proof that he's not.

    This is where a lot of people differ. Me I tend to go with "if you think I did something that needs to be punished(somehow, someway), YOU need to prove it. I don't have to disprove anything". You can't disprove something that never happened. I'm with the
    laws of the land, so to speak, on this one. If my wife disappears and the police think I killed her but I didn't(maybe she took off with a boyfriend), THEY must come up with a body and proof that I did. I am under no obligation to spend time and money disproving something I didn't do. Maybe I could have worded that a bit better but you get my idea?
    Even if I did do it, you and or they must provide the proof.

    Dennis Noward
  • aurelio_-_banned
    aurelio_-_banned Posts: 1,317
    Moray Gub wrote:
    Your rampant anti americanism doesnt really do you any favours. I suspect thats what this is really all about.
    If posting a mild amalgam of numerous 'Fuck the French' posts I have seen in support of Armstrong (and not just on cycling sites) is evidence of 'anti-Americanism', what are we to make of the sort of material I was paying a minor 'homage' to? Proof of there being rampant anti-French xenophobia across the USA perhaps? (Not that I believe such a thing myself).

    Lance is the Man…..
    Could hop on the bike and climb the podium at the tdf right now!
    An awesome inspiration to me personally, and no question about it, he is the best conditioned athlete of all time, in body and mind.
    Seven TDF mellow johnny’s in a row, and he did it clean…….
    It’s no wonder the French hate him.
    Fuck the French; Long Live Lance!
    Thank you Lance.

    http://www.ride-strong.com/mellow-johnny’s-lance-armstrongs-bike-shop/

    FUCK the french. They are just pissed that one of their own cant win a race in their own country.

    http://www.microdoted.com/microdot-foru ... hp?p=73448

    The Associated Press Friday, August 5, 2005; 11:00 PM PARIS, France

    Lance Armstrong’s record setting seventh Tour de France victory, along with his entire Tour de France legacy, may be tarnished by what could turn out to be one of the greatest sports scandals of all time. Armstrong is being quizzed by French police after three banned substances were found in his South France hotel room while on mvacation after winning the 2005 Tour de France.

    The three substances found were toothpaste, deodorant, and soap which have been banned by French authorities for over 75 years.

    Armstrong’s girlfriend and American rocker Sheryl Crowe is quoted as saying “We use them every day in America, so we naturally thought they’d be ok throughout Europe.” Along with these three banned substances, French authorities also found several other interesting items that they have never seen before, including a backbone and testicles.

    http://right-thinking.com/index.php/web ... stent_ils/

    All across France this morning, the sounds of hand-smacking-against-forehead were heard, followed by a forceful Merde! uttered by Pere; while Maman tried to calm down the crying children. Meanwhile, in the local cafe, Monsieur Francois poured himself an extra cognac — only done when something serious has happened like, for instance, the country being invaded by les bouches or the latest edition of L'Equipe not arriving on time.

    The reason for all that consternation was un Americain. Naturellement.

    For this morning, Lance Armstrong, seven time winner of France's most famous bicycling event, L    e Tour, has declared that he's coming back to join — and win — the game once more.

    They SURRENDERED to the Germans. TWICE!
    We had to BAIL OUT there asses. TWICE!
    They undermined our efforts to prevent TERRORISM.
    They are FROGS. Fucking ugly, stupid FROGS.

    Fuck the french.

    Go LANCE!

    http://www.plastic.com/article.html?sid ... 2/20324213


    And that was from just the first page of a Google search. And I didn't even look for the phrase 'Armstrong', 'Screw the French'!
  • leguape
    leguape Posts: 986
    Kléber wrote:
    camerone wrote:
    Well Kimmage was very pleased with Slipstream last summer, so thats them 100% clean obviously. or is it........i am sure i have seen some slight finger pointing towards VdV on this forum simply by his assosiation with previous teams/teammates . therefore obviously he and all his current teammates are dopers. isn't that how it works? :idea:
    What's your point. Clearly riders like Millar have doped in the past, we know that. Vaughters too admitted this in a roundabout way. Have they changed? Well it seems they're trying their hardest.

    I'd look to a lot of Italian and Spanish teams for unreformed riding.

    The same thing was said in some quarters about trying to be clean when Bjarne threw the anchors over the side to avoid CSC's slide into ignominy in 2006. Now look at where we are with them. If there's one thing that cycling's history teaches us, is that there is an incredible propensity for what is being said publicly and what is actually happening to be totally at odds with each other.
    http://www.atomicecho.com/cycling
  • Kléber
    Kléber Posts: 6,842
    dennisn wrote:
    This is where a lot of people differ. Me I tend to go with "if you think I did something that needs to be punished(somehow, someway), YOU need to prove it. I don't have to disprove anything". You can't disprove something that never happened. I'm with the
    laws of the land, so to speak, on this one. If my wife disappears and the police think I killed her but I didn't(maybe she took off with a boyfriend), THEY must come up with a body and proof that I did.
    That's fine Dennis. But what if you lived in an area where a lot of people were being murdered every day. You might ask the police to do something about it. What if the police tried but just couldn't catch the criminals because the gangsters were above the law and able to escape justice?

    Because this is what has been happening in cycling. The likes of the UCI have been struggling to catch the cheats. Let's not pretend doping has been rare: many, many top riders have eventually been caught. But often due to judicial action, not the UCI tests. So if doping is widespread, it can be hard to prove.

    Now maybe you'll sit back and say "I don't see the proof so all is well with pro cycling" but many don't think like that, they want a cleaner sport, they want improved tests, they want less cynicism from the riders (see Schumacher or Valverde this week alone), they want a healthier sport.
  • LangerDan
    LangerDan Posts: 6,132
    rockmount wrote:
    Another rider I love to watch, and admire is Jens Voigt, what's the verdict on him, dope sleuths ?? he's been around a while. How does he fit in with the guilty by association / just must have / couldn't not have / set of criteria ???

    I like Jens too. The "verdict"? Well, you can always go with the quote from his former team-mate "Bella Jorg" Jaksche in Issue 109 of ProCycling. As both are German and pro-cyclists, you can probably exclude xenophobia and envy as motives.

    On Jens Voight a former CSC team mate. When the Festina scandal broke during the 1998 Tour, Jaksche alleges he had a discussion with the then-GAN rider who said a team-mate had suggested "burying all the stuff along the Tour race route"

    "I don't want to talk about other riders, but Jens Voight is the exception. I never had any problems with him and always thought he was an honest soul. But I was at CSC, and I, for my part, know what happened there. And I know what happened, back in the days when EPO wasn't detectable yet"
    'This week I 'ave been mostly been climbing like Basso - Shirley Basso.'
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,711
    Moray Gub wrote:
    A lot of opinions on Lance particularly against him are driven by xenophobia.

    MG

    Erm...........I don't suppose there's any point in asking for the evidence supporting this statement?

    I have to be honest and say I dislike Lance a lot less since all his rivals have been unmasked as dope cheats.
    After all, the underpinning logic to this forum "war of words"; that Lance cheated both the followers of the sport and his rivals.
    Turns out, only half of that can be true.

    Again, I'd have to say there is at least as much xenophobia towards Euro riders, if not much more, than is shown towards those who speak English.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • camerone
    camerone Posts: 1,232
    Kléber wrote:
    camerone wrote:
    Well Kimmage was very pleased with Slipstream last summer, so thats them 100% clean obviously. or is it........i am sure i have seen some slight finger pointing towards VdV on this forum simply by his assosiation with previous teams/teammates . therefore obviously he and all his current teammates are dopers. isn't that how it works? :idea:
    What's your point. Clearly riders like Millar have doped in the past, we know that. Vaughters too admitted this in a roundabout way. Have they changed? Well it seems they're trying their hardest.

    I'd look to a lot of Italian and Spanish teams for unreformed riding.

    My point really was that there have been aspersions cast on VdV(not by me I hasten to add) simply by his associations on previous teams - CSC etc.these aspersions contradict the common view that slipstream are clean.
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    aurelio wrote:
    3SpeedsRtheonlyBike wrote:
    I don't think people really dislike Floyd
    Personally, I think he is almost as bad as Armstrong. His blatant denials in the face of overwhelming evidence, his resort to xenophobic anti-French 'conspiracy' theories, his attempts to undermine the whole system of doping control, from the labs to the tests themselves and his willingness to pay high-flying lawyers to exploit any minor loop hole or technicality have set the cause of eradicating doping from the sport back by years. Oh, and he is a doper to boot!

    I've read Floyds book and he's a lot more scatching towards the Americans than he was towards the French to be honest. He even mentions in the book how the AFLD were quite accomodating and helpful compared to their counterparts in the US.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    aurelio wrote:

    And that was from just the first page of a Google search. And I didn't even look for the phrase 'Armstrong', 'Screw the French'!

    But i am not asking about them this is about YOU.

    MG
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    Blazing Saddles wrote:
    [


    Erm...........I don't suppose there's any point in asking for the evidence supporting this statement?

    Evidence .......... when was the ever a factor regarding lance ? anyway you read enough forums to have seen the anti american nature of a lot of the anti Lance brigade.

    MG
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • aurelio_-_banned
    aurelio_-_banned Posts: 1,317
    iainf72 wrote:
    I've read Floyds book and he's a lot more scatching towards the Americans than he was towards the French to be honest. He even mentions in the book how the AFLD were quite accomodating and helpful compared to their counterparts in the US.
    Maybe. But he still tried to pull the old 'French conspiracy' number as a part of his 'defence'.

    From the The North American Court of Arbitration for Sport/AAA Panel verdict on Landis' case:

    255. It was submitted by the Respondent that the LNDD technicians deleted test results they found to be “incorrect” or that “did not correspond.” Particularly, the Respondent alleges that the Lab deleted test results related to the quality control steps including the result from the Mix Cal Acetate and Blank Urine runs. The Respondent further asserts that the LNDD manipulated the destruction and deletion of data such that the total picture presented by the Lab made the testing and IRMS sequences look as if they were uninterrupted.

    256. This evidence was apparently introduced to suggest that there was a conspiracy within the Lab to ensure that the samples of Floyd Landis would be found positive. The difficulty with the theory of conspiracy is that the Lab was conducting the analysis of the Stage 17 sample without knowing on whose sample they were working.

    257. The Panel rejects the theory of a Lab conspiracy as being without foundation and facts to come to such a conclusion.

    http://www.usantidoping.org/files/activ ... 0(20-09-07)%20(3).pdf
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    aurelio wrote:
    iainf72 wrote:
    I've read Floyds book and he's a lot more scatching towards the Americans than he was towards the French to be honest. He even mentions in the book how the AFLD were quite accomodating and helpful compared to their counterparts in the US.
    Maybe. But he still tried to pull the old 'French conspiracy' number as a part of his 'defence'.

    From the The North American Court of Arbitration for Sport/AAA Panel verdict on Landis' case:

    That only works if you interpret LNDD to mean "The French". I don't. They're a lab which have been shown to do good work but also to be sloppy and not follow protocol (see Landaluze)

    Would be interesting to find out why the AFLD used a lab in Switzerland for the testing in last years Tour.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,711
    Moray Gub wrote:
    Blazing Saddles wrote:
    [
    Erm...........I don't suppose there's any point in asking for the evidence supporting this statement?

    Evidence .......... when was the ever a factor regarding lance ? anyway you read enough forums to have seen the anti american nature of a lot of the anti Lance brigade.

    MG

    So that's a no, then.

    Au contraire. I have seen a minimal amount of postings that can be directly tagged as anti-US.
    Usually, this appears as another trot out excuse from the opposite side of the fence.

    As for Aurelio, the answer is obvious.
    How is it possible to be xenophobic towards a nation, when comments are restricted to an solitary individual? :wink:

    Anyhow, I'm off to sunny California, now............
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • aurelio_-_banned
    aurelio_-_banned Posts: 1,317
    Moray Gub wrote:
    aurelio wrote:
    And that was from just the first page of a Google search. And I didn't even look for the phrase 'Armstrong', 'Screw the French'!
    But i am not asking about them this is about YOU.
    So, by the same 'logic', if someone posted a parody of for example, anti- American sentiments that they found on, say, an Iraqi based web-site, this would prove, in your mind at least, that the poster was anti-Iraqi? :roll:

    For what it's worth, some of the people I most respect in the world are, or were Americans. I have no time at all for Republicans, fundamentalist Christians, white supremacists and gun nuts. 'Americans' per say, though, are another matter altogether. :roll:
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    Blazing Saddles wrote:
    Moray Gub wrote:
    Blazing Saddles wrote:
    [

    Au contraire. I have seen a minimal amount of postings that can be directly tagged as anti-US.
    Usually, this appears as another trot out excuse from the opposite side of the fence.

    As for Aurelio, the answer is obvious.
    How is it possible to be xenophobic towards a nation, when comments are restricted to an solitary individual? :wink:

    Anyhow, I'm off to sunny California, now............

    Yea sure you constantly say you are on other forums so youve seen the post i have seen no doubt.As for aurelio it is when those comments are primarily becuase of an individuals nationality . One other thing why do always jump to the defence of the ALB ?

    MG
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • aurelio_-_banned
    aurelio_-_banned Posts: 1,317
    iainf72 wrote:
    That only works if you interpret LNDD to mean "The French". I don't.
    Fair point, but many of Landis' followers certainly took the 'Armstrong line' and generalised from the LNDD to 'The French' in general, just as Armstrong did with the LNDD, the ASO and so on.
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    Kléber wrote:
    dennisn wrote:
    This is where a lot of people differ. Me I tend to go with "if you think I did something that needs to be punished(somehow, someway), YOU need to prove it. I don't have to disprove anything". You can't disprove something that never happened. I'm with the
    laws of the land, so to speak, on this one. If my wife disappears and the police think I killed her but I didn't(maybe she took off with a boyfriend), THEY must come up with a body and proof that I did.
    That's fine Dennis. But what if you lived in an area where a lot of people were being murdered every day. You might ask the police to do something about it. What if the police tried but just couldn't catch the criminals because the gangsters were above the law and able to escape justice?

    Because this is what has been happening in cycling. The likes of the UCI have been struggling to catch the cheats. Let's not pretend doping has been rare: many, many top riders have eventually been caught. But often due to judicial action, not the UCI tests. So if doping is widespread, it can be hard to prove.

    Now maybe you'll sit back and say "I don't see the proof so all is well with pro cycling" but many don't think like that, they want a cleaner sport, they want improved tests, they want less cynicism from the riders (see Schumacher or Valverde this week alone), they want a healthier sport.

    I know what you're saying. People get tired of what they view as the inability of police(or governing sport bodies) to get rid of the "bad apples"(for lack of better words). Still what you seem to be asking for comes close to vigilante justice. If your neighbor gets mad at you for whatever, calls the police, tells them you're dealing drugs, 2 AM a squad kicks you door in, terrorizes you and your family, ransacks your house, finds nothing, says
    they are sorry but someone said...... This is OK by you?? And I know this is a bit far fetched but then again is it? I'm going with the rights of people on this one. Plus it won't be much of a sport to be in if the governing bodies start "kicking doors in" and riders out
    on speculation alone.

    Dennis Noward

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