Ride for Palestine 2009

mikedobson

just push

welcome to the wilderness!

jam1e

Yep, the toontra post wasn't there when I posted...

All of us are merely repeating ourselves - You've both given your opinions from a pro palestinian perspective, I've given mine from an anti Hamas perspective. Your reasons are valid to you and mine are valid to me. Both our points of view have some agreement from other posters, forumites and the world at large.

I've made an attempt to answer any questions you guys have had, some of mine have been ignored for whatever reason. In addition I'm not the only one repeating my position, there is a fair amount of that coming in my direction as well, I guess the reason it's ok coming from you is that you believe your position to be the only "correct" one.

So unless you've got something dramatically different to say which will convince me of the error of my ways then I'll bid you all a good evening. (By dramatically different I don't mean more of the same "Oh won't somebody pleeease think of the children" type whining, dubious examples of moral equivalency and childish name calling)

PS I "highlighted" certain parts of the text in order to make it harder for you to willfully gloss over the fundamental point behind my position - but credit to you, you still tried...


Goddam it - just seen the new post!

JustPush

I think you'll find I've already condemmed any deliberate targetting of Palestinian civillians by Israeli forces. If you're going to join in at least catch up.

mikedobson

I don't know if you think it's different but I would still like to know the answer to my last question to you regarding motive and strategy in Vichy France.

jam1e

mikedobson wrote:

I don't know if you think it's different but I would still like to know the answer to my last question to you regarding motive and strategy in Vichy France.

And I'd still like an answer to my earlier question when I asked you:

Do you believe there is a moral difference between deliberately targetting civilians and civilian casualties caused during an attack on a military target?

But clearly we can't have everything we want.

And that is my final word - I'm sure you'll manage without me.

mikedobson

Happy to answer it.

The various French Resistance units were established to disrupt and destroy the German occupation of their land in such a way as to a) weaken the resolve of the occupier, b) create an additional (albeit minor) front in the Allied campaign. Their primary strategic aim was to assist in the destruction of the German war effort and thereby contribute to its eventual defeat by the combined Allied forces.

Note, they did not have as a primary objective the destruction of the German occupation. It was always an ancillary and largely symbolic effort, valuable but not decisive.

So, even though the achieved objective was less ambitious than that of the Palestinian people (they don't have a combined Allied force fighting Israel for them), you still consider it was justifiable for them to deliberately target and kill civilians.

Now, if you consider it was ok for them to do it and yet you condemn the killing of civilians per se, there is a strand in your logic that would argue that you can condemn and justify all at the same time, and if that's the case and if the odds stack up you are forced to condemn and justify the suicide bombers as well. QED.

bobpzero

http://www.myspace.com/sjbikeparty heres a kind of cycling would be great to try out in the uk

Justpush

jam1e wrote:

JustPush

I think you'll find I've already condemmed any deliberate targetting of Palestinian civillians by Israeli forces. If you're going to join in at least catch up.

Utter nonsense.
You've posed questions of other peoples views.
This is totally different to making a statement of your postiton yourself.

Let me remind you what you've said.

jam1e wrote:

Israel has killed 900 people including civilians despite their efforts to avoid civilian casualties.
.

jam1e wrote:

Israel does not deliberately target purely civilian targets, some civilians are collateral damage. Anyone who believes the IDF has deliberately targetted civilans and yet "only" killed 900 is clearly unaware of how many people would be killed if the Israelis really went after innocents.
.

jam1e wrote:

I just prefer to identify with those who at least make an effort to avoid civilian deaths. .

jam1e wrote:

unavoidable collateral damage caused during an attack on a military target,
.

I have pointed out that there are numerous examples of Israel DELIBERATELY TARGETING civilians and medical aid workers,in total beach of international humanitarian law
You can look up these up on the International Red Cross website yourself.

How are civillans not deliberately targetted when sewage works, fuel dumps, electricity stations, medical centres, the whole infrastucture is being bombed to bits.

This is what the UN said
''Around two-thirds of the territory's 1.5m people have no electricity; the rest have only an intermittent supply, the UN said. Hospitals are overloaded with the injured, and 500,000 Gazans still have no access to running water. "Israeli bombardment is causing extensive destruction to homes and to public infrastructure throughout the Gaza Strip and is jeopardising water, sanitation and medical services," the UN said.



The first to suffer and die in these inhuman conditions will be the most vulnerable: infants, children, the elderly, the sick. THE CIVILIANS. What else can they do? Where can they go? Not to the medical centers being destroyed in the attack.


Did you ever stop to think why one of the first targets of the Israeli Army was to take Gaza TV of the air? Why they have stopped international journalists going into Gaza?
They have wanted to control the news. But in a modern war, such a sterile clincial sanatised collateral damage manufactured view cannot completely exclude all others – the cameras are inside the strip, in the middle of the hell, and cannot be controlled. Aljazeera broadcasts the pictures around the clock.

The truth is out there if you look.

mikedobson

just push

Well said.

Al Jazeera is heroic at the moment.

finchy

mikedobson 8) to you for being a Jew and ex-IDF sticking up for Palestinian rights. It's very important when we see the images on our TVs every night that there is a Jewish movement dedicated to solidarity with the Palestinian people and the promotion of their human rights.

It is totally unfair on Jews that Jewish anti-violence voices go unreported in the western media, with the only comment coming from Jews who believe that Israel is right no matter what the facts. This only helps to reinforce anti-Semitic stereotypes, and prevents Westerners who don't deliberately look for a balanced understanding to properly grasp the complexities of the situation. (This also applies to Muslims - they only ever get on the news when they're advocating violence!)

jam1e - the problem is that there is considerable evidence from past campaigns that the Israeli military has NOT tried to limit civilian casualties. For example, using cluster bombs and phosphorus in civilian areas, plus acts which haven't been fully investigated, such as allowing Christian militants to slaughter Palestinian refugees in Lebanon. No doubt that after the latest violence has finished there will be more evidence, even if international media access is currently being prevented.

Also there have been acts of violence carried out by Jewish extremists, ranging from walking into a mosque and machine gunning worshippers to burning down Palestinian farms. (To their credit, the Jewish peace movement intervened to stop Palestinians being targetted on farms, especially at harvest time when attacks became more frequent). This passes under the radar in the West, which partly explains why the Palestinians are often portrayed as the aggressors and Israelis as the victims, instead of a deeper understanding of the politics of the region.

I suppose at the end of the day, Christian nations have caused untold suffering to both Jews and Arabs, and it is the responsibility of our governments to try to put right some of the damage by really making a massive effort to find a JUST peace. If we could help Palestine to develop economically and politically, remove some of the anger and sense of hopelessness with the current situation, peace may be achieved.

Unfortunately, I expect the same old blame game to be carried on, despite the removal of the the neo-cons ( ) from the White House.

mikedobson

John Finch

Thanks for kind words. I concur with your comments.

jam1e, as I'm writing this I'm listening to reports of IDF bombing the UN compound in Gaza City using artillery, tank rounds and aerial ordinance. I'm struggling to see how this fits in to your paradigm.

Mark_K

Problem is and I think where jam1e is coming from (bear in mine I have no affiliation with one side or the other IMHO I think they both use some barbaric tactics ) when Hamas use civilians to hide behind or operating from civilian areas (I know not easy not to in Gaza) people in the west that are being drip feed news cant help but think well if they didn't do x y z then they wouldn't get hit by Israel !! I know because I,ve bothered to find out and because of threads like this and I dare say others now know more about the horrors ocuring on both side.
But the the vast majority off people listening to the news in their nice warm car on the way to their well paid jobs or sat in the comfort of their homes stuffing their belly's watching the news while their 2.4 children play the latest computer game this war just raises a tut and a shake of the head with no idea of the suffering that the people of Palestine are going through and that's that!
Why! well I cant help but think from a layman's terms and with the info we in the west get that most people see the horror off kids being blown up on school buses by suicide bombers and that tactic is laid purely at the door of Hamas therefore don't be surprised if the general public don't rush to support Hamas's cause !

suze

redddraggon wrote:

mikedobson wrote:

This is a great opportunity to show solidarity with those suffering from aggression and will give a greater insight to all participants into the reality of life on the ground in this troubled but beautiful part of the world.

Perhaps if the Palestinians refrained from Firing rockets at the Israelis..........

Or building and storing ammunitions in schools and hospitals etc...

mikedobson

Suze,

Who told you that Hmas stockpile ammo in schools and hospitals?

suze

coleague on mine who works in the area.

toontra

suze wrote:

coleague on mine who works in the area.

How would they know? Have they seen these stockpiles? Did Hamas invite them in for a viewing of their "capability"? I somehow doubt it. I'm afraid the Irsaelis run a very effective PR campaign, which issues misinformation around the world to anyone who'll listen. I'd say that's a far more likely source for your friend's "information".

Remember the WMD's in Iraq which didn't exist, but which the "certain" evidence of was enough to justify an invasion? Could the same be true for these stockpiles of weapons in schools, hospitals and churches, do you think? Sometimes it suits an aggressor to make claims to justify it's behaviour, I'm sure you would agree. Hell, practically every defendant in the UK criminal courts has a defence or mitigating factor. It doesn't make them innocent.

Just cause a man in a suit says it's so, doesn't mean it's true. The Israelis have an extensive record of lying to suit their aims. Why should I believe them in this case?

Away from the claim and counter-claim there are a few undisputed facts. 1,000 dead Palestinians, the vast majority civillians and rising by the hour. That is fact and that is where the tragedy (and blame IMO) lies.

Justpush

mikedobson wrote:

John Finch

Thanks for kind words. I concur with your comments.

jam1e, as I'm writing this I'm listening to reports of IDF bombing the UN compound in Gaza City using artillery, tank rounds and aerial ordinance. I'm struggling to see how this fits in to your paradigm.

I ve just come on here after seeing Aljazeera to say exaclty the same thing.
They are also targetting journalists now. 4 have been kiiled now.
They are holding a protest on the 8th floor of a hotel which is acting as their studios.
No doubt that soon will be a 'military collateral damage target'
Fire fighters have also been targetted. So now Fires are burning uncontrolled.
These BASTARDS are just going crazy, with fecking blood lust.
To say I'm seething with rage is an understatement.

It does totally answer the oppresion apolgist on this board.
Like all of the acts of state terror falsely called "counterterrorism," the Israeli attacks will breed much more of the very thing they are purporting to combat.

Where are our political leaders? Nick Clegg apart

mikedobson

Suze,

Colleague of mine works in the area too. He's a doctor in Gaza. He told me he and his brother spent Saturday morning dragging children out of a school the IDF had bombed. They got most of them out in fewer than three pieces but some they had to leave behind. I don't believe him now though, not since I was overthrown by the weight of your argument.

Hamas are all jolly naughty and should be sent to bed with no supper for their rude behaviour towards those nice Israeli soldiers and their war mongering politicians. Honestly, I can't believe I've been so blind all these years. I'll call all the people I know in Gaza (assuming the phone lines are up - the pesky things keep breaking down, oddly always about the same time that Israel is carrying out airstrikes, which is, well, always!) and I'll tell them that Suze's colleague has sussed it all out, it's the bloody occupied people's fault NOT the occupiers! I'm sure this will provide great comfort to them as they piece together the broken bodies of their children so they can bury them.

By the way, as a nice touch, the Israeli's bombed one of the main graveyards overnight with tank busting missiles, as a result a lot of the recently buried bodies were thrown out of their graves onto the surrounding ground in a scene of such grotesque horror I cannot begin to imagine. God's chosen people. He has odd taste doesn't he!

oldwelshman

Mike, the original post was for ride for palastine, but after the first page has just ended up as a complete rant . First few pages at least had some interesting views from both sides of the argument but has since become just very repetative. It is clear that there are strong views both sides and that neither are going to be convinced to change views, so if that is the case in the forum, what does that say for the chances of peace?
It is going to have to be from scratch with a cease fire and political agreement and not by goiong back over history whether one day agoe or 1500 years ago.
With respect to the ride, as some other poster mentioned if it was a ride for peace in general I think it would be a far better idea as a ride promoted for one side is going to antagonise the other side.

mikedobson

What aspect of the Israeli side would you like to support?

Bikefotos

oldwelshman wrote:

Mike, the original post was for ride for palastine, but after the first page has just ended up as a complete rant . First few pages at least had some interesting views from both sides of the argument but has since become just very repetative.

On the contrary. I have followed this thread for the last few days and found it very informative. I had no affiliations one way or the other but I can say that I find the way that the Israelis are treating the Palestinians bordering on the inhuman.

I would like to thank Mike Dobson for his informative views and for highlighting the plight of the Palestinians through this forum.

I for one would be unable to afford to travel to Gaza to take part in a peace ride but would be willing to take part if it was UK based. Good luck Mike.

toontra

oldwelshman wrote:

Mike, the original post was for ride for palastine, but after the first page has just ended up as a complete rant . First few pages at least had some interesting views from both sides of the argument but has since become just very repetative.

Not true. Go back and read the first page again - it's full of comments implying that the OP was talking rubbish. I actually wasn't going to post in this thread at all but after the way Mike was treated in those early posts (by several of the "regulars" here) I felt obliged to respond for the sake of balance.

Mike's original post wasn't in any way inflammatory, but instead of just ignoring it several people felt the need to respond in a pretty pathetic way IMO.

What has followed has been an exploration of the issues, and as with any argument there has been a certain amount of repetition and raised voices, but overall I think there has at least now been a balanced expression of opinion.

Gotte

bobpzero wrote:

http://www.myspace.com/sjbikeparty heres a kind of cycling would be great to try out in the uk

I agree.

mikedobson

I think the wilderness is a little less lonely now.

Thank you guys for the supportive comments in this thread. I'm not afraid of the negative ones, quite often they are revealing of a person's own misunderstanding of the situation and not reflective of true malice.

Peace and respect to all.

Mike

Ruari

I think one thing to keep in mind for any political debate, is that one mans' freedom fighter is another mans' terrorist...

mikedobson

but the one man's terrorist in this case is Israel

davelakers

The problem with threads like this on a cycling message board is that everyone is an expert on their own opinion. It seems to me that certain posters are blind in their anger and can not and will not accept or listen someone else's opinion.

IN MY OPINION cycling for Palestine is a bloody stupid idea that will not change a single thing in the grand scheme of things. It just means people can think that they're doing their bit but in reality do buggar all!!

Ruari

mikedobson wrote:

but the one man's terrorist in this case is Israel

Ah, so in Irelands' case the terrorists are the English...
And in Afghanistan it's the coalition forces...

This can go on and on you know, and I think this might be the wrong place to advocate political leanings.

Happy riding to all.

Naz

What wheels would people recommend for this sportive? Aero or built for strength?

Will I need a triple?

Can I get Campag spares there or should I stick with Shimano?

Can I get a link to the route so that I can upload it onto my GPS?

mikedobson

Ruari,

Yes. I couldn't have made the point better myself. Except of course I'd have used the correct apostrophe.

W5454

Mr.Dobson,do me a favour.
Go to effin' Palestine and stay there.
Thank you.