Ride for Palestine 2009

oldwelshman

mikedobson wrote:

But the simple truth is that the Palestinian people are a normal people with normal aspirations. They are no better but they are no worse than any other national group. What they aspire to, above all, is a piece of land to call their own on which to live in freedom and dignity.
quote]

Very one dimensional view on the state of affairs there.
Do you really believe that Palestinians are all normal peple with normal aspirations? Utter crap. I agree there are probably some like that, but not the majority for sure.
Have you not seen the interviews with Palastinian children who when asked what their aspirations were when grown up replied " To kill as many Jews as possible and become a martyr". Is this the view of a normal child or one of a child brainwashed. Have you not seen the children in schools being brainwashed and taught how to be suicide bombers? Is this normal?
When asked if they had met any jews, the children said no, !! So how do they acquire such hatred of people they never met?
Is it normal for "terrorists" to hide and fire from schools, hospitals and mosques and also shelter behind children ? Is it normal to use women and even retartded people and children as suicide bombers? All of these are facts and do not try to say they are propoganda.
I was actually in Israel and very close to the pub blown up by two UK terrorists.
I have also been there on three other occasions of suicide bombings. Thius is hardly normal.
Dou you not agree Hamas are an organisation funded by Iran with little interest in peace or the future of Gazza? Did they not state they do not recognise Israel as a state and never will?
The history of the region goes back thousands of years so will never help to resolve the current situation.
The closest to peace they have got was during the Clinton administration and the sticking point was when the Palastinians wanted complete control of Jerusalem, which will never happen. Israel agreed multi national control but that was rejected.
Can you really see Jerusalem under the control of Palastinians? Not a chance, the city has to much importance to the Jewish and Christian faiths for it to be given up, remember Islam is only almost 1400 years old, christianity is 700 years older and Jewish faith a couple of thousand years older.
Jerusalem has so many sacred sites important to all religions and unfortunately the Plastinians have little respect for such sites ( look at the ancient tombs they desecrated in the West Bank).
I once visited the dome of the rock and was mobbed by Palastinians trying to tact as guides and to tell me how the site is sacred to Muslims ( which it is) but that there was never a temple on the site, really? !!
As long as Hamas are in Gaza unfortunately I see no chance of peace for Gazza.
I know many people in Israel and almost every one of them wants peace, but every one of them supports the current action becuase of the threat from Hamas and terrorism.
If the people of Gaza are normal, surely they would not have voted for Hamas and surely they would realise that the only hope for peace is to get rid of them, which is not so easy now, which is probabkly why Israel are trying to do it!

It is interesting the way the press report this current situation as it is very similar to events in Iraq and Afghanistan with respect to civilian casualties but here less reported about them in those countries? Why is that are they less worthy?

The state of affairs in Israel and West Bank and Gazza is dreadful and such a shame as the entire area is beautiful and would be great for tourism if the area was in peace.

Anyway what has this to do with cycling? I am going to be there soon and would have loved to do such a ride but believe politics and cycling should be kept appart other than in forums in right category
Guess I will be riding on my own out there.

mr_hippo

toontra wrote:

mr_hippo wrote:

mikedobson wrote:

mr hippo

I'm talking about the slaughter of children. You?

Are you? Can't see any mention of it!

The figures are pretty simple. In 3 weeks:
900 Palestinians killed - 300 of which children
13 Israelis killed - 10 of which soldiers (at least 3 of those "friendly fire")

I'm actually pretty amazed by the level of ignorance, apathy and outright racism (i.e. arab-hate) displayed on this thread. I hope you never find yourself in a position of oppression and need the help of others.

There was no previous mention of the slaughter of children so how do we know that he was talking about it? Just what is your experience of the Arabs? Mine? about 12 years in Saudi & Oman - love the people and the region.

mikedobson wrote:

Aah, the "land with no people for a people with no land" argument.
Why did the original Balfour Declaration refer to the "indigenous people" of the region?

Ever heard of Mandatory Palestine? The land defined by the British as "Arab" territory following the dismantling of the Ottoman Empire? This was the territory split by the UN partition plan 58% - 42% and immediately thereafter appropriated by Greater Israel to form the annexed West Bank and Gaza Strip. Nobody denies that Israel is occcupying Palestine,

Why did the original Balfour Declaration refer to the "indigenous people" of the region? What would you call the jndigenous people who live in the geographic area called Palestine?
Have I ever heard of Mandatory Palestine? No but I am familiar with the Palestine Mandate, also known as the Mandate for Palestine, the British Mandate for Palestine or the British Mandate of Palestine.

stjohnswell

Hi Mike,

Personally, I'm lucky enough to have spent some time working in Jerusalem. Undoubtedly you're going to be riding through some of the most historically significant and spitritually inspiring countryside on the planet. I'm sure you'll have a truly amazing ride.

As it has a politcal angle, I'd just be more convinced if it was a Peace Ride for the sake of Peace, rather than for the Peace Ride for the sake of the Palestinans.

Perhaps if the ride took a small detour & spent just one night in Sderot, a town on the receiving end of 7500 Kassam rockets since 2001 people might be more credulous of it's agenda.

Good Luck with the organisation & stay safe.

Mark_K

Some well writen posts here. Good reading !

Gotte

Bugly wrote:

ah religion wouldnt the world be a simpler safer place if there were not so many gods each demanding that the way to salvation is to kill the infidel?

I've never really understood the argument that God is responsible for the horrors of the world. I imagine that politics and greed, rather than God, have accounted for a lot more horror.


And I said I was keeping my head down...

mikedobson

Mr Hippo,

Are you denying that Palestinians lived in the region? Do you think they were just on vacation for 10,000 years?

My credentials, since you ask, my partner is Gazan. She was unable to visit her dying father because of the Israeli blockade of the borders. She hasn't seen her mother for 6 years for the same reason. I am Jewish, a citizen of this country, grandson of a holocaust survivor, I spent three years studying at Ben Gurion university and a further two in reservist capacity for the IDF, I have roughly 300 relatives living in Jerusalem, Sderot and Tel Aviv. My uncle is a serving member of the Knesset. I talk every day to friends and relatives on both sides of the conflict, this very morning I have spoken to a brother in law in Khan Younis, a doctor, who spent last night bandaging the faces of people with third degree burns caused, most probably, by white phosphorus. They have had no fresh water now for 14 days, water supply, along with fuel and electricity is controlled by Israel.

This is not the time for hollow retributive point scoring. The suffering of the Palestinians is indisputable, anyone who doubts that has only to ask what they would accept in similar circumstances.

Now, Oldweshman,

First point, no, I think the Palestinians are an oppressed people with normal aspirations, plus the aspirations of an oppressed people. In other words, a desire to live in freedom and to resist in any way they can the limitation of the same by an external power.

Point two. Have you seen the children of the settlers in the West Bank who spit on old Palestinian women and call them dogs and devils? Have you seen the Palestinian children taunted by settlers as they attempt to get themselves to school through the maze of road blocks and border controls, a journey that often takes them more time than they actually spend at school while Israeli children are whisked along brand new Israeli-only highways to pristine Israeli-only schools on Palestinian land, where they are taught the Zionist view of the Middle East in which the Palestinian people are effectively erased from history? Have you seen the dead children killed by IDF guns as they played in the street? (since 2005 557 Palestinian children have been killed in the West Bank and Gaza - NOT including the current conflict). Whatever the rhetoric of these children the fact on the ground is that Palestinian children ARE slaughtered by Israelis. Would you think it a bit odd if these children praised the Israelis for what they are doing? If you were one of them, wouldn't you want to avenge the death of so many of your fellow countrymen?

Suicide bombing is an horrendous and depserate crime, tragic in every regard. But incalculably more Palestinians have died through the systematic military oppression of the IDF than have ever suffered through this crude mecahnism. I'm happy to condemn both, are you?

Point three. How do you think they acquire haterd of the Jews? Might it have something to do with the fact that Jews are killing them? Tough one, I can understand your confusion!

Point four. During my training in the IDF we were taught to seek shelter during close combat as close to civilian centres as possible in order to reduce the amount of ordinance fired at us. By this method greater progress would be made towards whatever objective we had. We have only the IDF view of this conflict. They are not allowing journalists to enter Gaza and any reports are censored prior to broadcast. Why would you accept their word over that of the Palestinians? In any event, sheltering among civilan centres and firing AT civilan centres are two different things! Unless Gaza has changed a lot in the last few years it would be pretty difficult to fight anywhere that could NOT be termed a civilan area, but that doesn't seem to deter the IDF from launching wave after wave of indiscriminate rocket attacks from the air, sea and ground. This is such a ludicrous point.

Point five. Hamas is funded by Iran/wants to eradicate Israel etc etc.

Why should Iran not fund a political party that seeks to defend the people who elected it? The US funds Israel for the exact same reason. Please inform me of the danger Iran poses to the rest of the region?

The Hamas charter which is tediously repeated by the Israelis is now over 25 years old and has been dismissed many times by the incumbent Hamas leadership. Simply put, it is not true. Hamas are looking for the establishment of the two state solution with Israel respecting the pre 1967 borders. It has even accepted the principle that some changes to the original 1967 lines would be necessary in order to facilitate the new reality on the ground created by Israel's settlement programme.

What Hamas will not do at present is recognise Israel with the land appropriated since 1067 as this would be tantamount to accepting that this land formed part of greater Israel. But of course, if you just say Hamas doesn't recognise Israel it fits in so much better with most people's already blinkered view of the situation.

All the rest of your points are sort of covered by the fact that Hamas wants to adopt the Arab States solution which inclused provision for Jerusalem being an International city governed by district officials reflecting the ethnic/religious make up of the citizens. Seems like a good solution to me. And has been adopted by Hamas, Fatah and the majority of the Arab countries.

The Palestinians want and deserve justice. Then we can all ride with our heads held high.

STEFANOS4784

What they said.............. :roll: :arrow:

toontra

Mike, don't expect your factual analysis and personal experience to count for much. Often generally right-thinking people seem to have a blind spot when it comes to middle-east injustice.

Also let's not forget that Israel probably spend more on PR and misinformation than Hamas spend on education and healthcare put together. They go to incredible lengths to plant their misinformation in every outlet possible around the world. No wonder some of it is swallowed whole, as witnessed above.

mikedobson

Thanks Toontra, sometimes feels like a voice in the wilderness, good to get your support.

Mike

toontra

You're welcome, and good luck with the ride. The only thing that will resolve this issue is for public opinion around the world to show their governments that what is happening isn't acceptable, very much in the same way as the anti-apartheid movement in the 70's & 80's.

jam1e

toontra wrote:

jam1e wrote:

IMHO the main difference between the 2 sides killing is intent. The Israelis intend to kill terrorists and kill innocents by mistake, Hamas etc pretty much just want to kill anyone Jewish, regardless of age, profession etc.

You really have swallowed the whole Israeli PR line whole haven't you. What they say and what they do are two entirely different things. Read the (undisputed) casualty figures I quoted above and what conclusion do you come to?

I'll reiterate if you can't be bothered to scroll:

3 Israeli civilians killed (none before the recent bombing started BTW)
900 Palestinians (300 of which children) and probably at least another 400 entirely innocent civilians

You really have swallowed the whole Palestinian PR line whole haven't you? What they say and what they do are two entirely different things. (Works both ways!)

What conclusion do I come to when I read the (unconfirmed by independent sources) casualty figures? How about...

Hamas have only managed to kill a handfull of military and civilians targets despite their best efforts.

Israel has killed 900 people including civilians despite their efforts to avoid civilian casualties. A large amount of these could probably have been avoided if Hamas didn't use "human shields". There is no accurate figure for the amount of Hamas fighters included in this number.

Do you seriously believe the IDF is targetting civillians just to get the bodycount up - if they were I'm sure there would be more than 900 dead.

I was never diisputing your figures, I just made the point that lobbing rockets at a city full of civillians, or sticking a suicide vest on a kid and sending them onto a rush hour bus in the hope of killing somebody, (anybody) is different to lobbing some counter- battery artillery fire at a known firing point and killing the people that the rocket firers used as cover.

Unfortunately, generally right (left?) - thinking people seem to have a blind spot when it comes to middle-east injustice...

However I might be biased having been on the receiving of some of these rockets fired into a small town and having seen the aftermath of suicide bombers targetting civillians...

toontra

Well if their intention is not to kill civilians then they are are just spectacularly, monumentally incompetent. Is that your claim?

The real issue here, as I'm sure you really know, is that Israel isn't interested in peace or negotiation, whether it be Hamas, Fatah or anyone else. They will work to de=stabilise any Palestinian representative party.

The reason? Under any meaningful peace negotiation they would be required to hand back illegally occupied land. To avoid this they keep the area in a constant state of disruption, quoting the "war on terror", as espoused by the US, as justification.

That is why they broke the cease fire on 4th November by killing 4 Palestinians, although that is (by clever contrivance) rarely reported.

Until the US (under pressure from their own population and other counties) quit funding and politically supporting the Israeli right-wing apocalypse merchants then nothing will change

meagain

"and it was their land before they were persecuted and expelled by the Romans"

Can I launch attacks on Italy then please? I SO want Wales back!

jam1e

It's more likely than the deliberate targetting of civillians. For a modern military to deliberately target a city full of civillians and "only" kill 900 is an even greater act of incompetence than killing 900 by accident. I'm fairly certain that attempting to manage that particular peice of complex, rapidly changing battlespace is a right pain in the tits.

Mistakes get made, given the amount of firepower chucked into Gaza (which as the bbc never ceases to tell us - is amongst the most densely populated places on earth) by the IDF, the amount of casualties seems to be quite low. Clearly everyone would be happier if the figures were even lower.

As a previous poster said - Ride for Peace? Yes. Ride for Palestine? No.

mr_hippo

mikedobson wrote:

Mr Hippo,
Are you denying that Palestinians lived in the region? Do you think they were just on vacation for 10,000 years?.

The geographical area is called Palestine therefore the natives are Palestinians - is that too difficult to understand?

jam1e

An addition as my edit function isn't working.

The fundamental problem is one of trust. The Israelis (probably rightly based on past experiences) don't trust Hamas etc to stick to any agreement if they make concessions.

The Palestinian authorities don't trust the Israelis to make concessions if they stop their attacks. If they stop the attacks and get no reward they'll probably be overthrown by more extreme elements. (Then they'll have to give their UN aid money funded limos back...)

mikedobson

jam1e

Do you think the French Resistance was justified in blowing up civilian centres where German and Vichy soldiers and officials were stationed during the Nazi occupation of France?

mikedobson

jam1e - what concessions?!?!?!?!

jam1e

mikedobson wrote:

jam1e

Do you think the French Resistance was justified in blowing up civilian centres where German and Vichy soldiers and officials were stationed during the Nazi occupation of France?

My bold - I'm sure you'll see my point.

mikedobson

Mr hippo.


I'm sorry but I really don't understand what you're saying! Are you asserting that there were no Palestinians in the area before 1948? That they magically appeared to defend the otherwise empty land as soon as it was gifted to the Jewish immigrants by the UN?

Please clarify.

mikedobson

jam1e

No, I don't!

French resistance was to the occupation of its land - ditto Hamas.

ram038

redddraggon wrote:

mikedobson wrote:

Has it never crossed your minds to ask why Israel is targetted in this way?

It's because they are surrounded by anti-semitic enemies, who'd do anything to protect their land (and it was their land before they were persecuted and expelled by the Romans), they are outnumbered, and I don't blame them for their aggressive defensive stance. Just look at Iran, their leader declaring that Israel and Jews should be wiped off the Earth.

The Jews have been persecuted for Millennia, so now they've got the ability to defend themselves I don't blame them for what they are doing.

There's two sides to every story, and the Palestinians are definitely not whiter than white.

If you could be bothered to do some research you would find that what the iranian leader said was deliberatley translated wrongly so as to whip up anti-arab feelings to justify american\Isreali objectives in that area. Everyone knows that the Jews were persecuted ( by europeans not Arabs) so you would think they would know to treat other people as equals and with justice . Don't lose sight of the fact that Palestinian lands are being occupied by a foreign aggressor and that they the Palestinians have nothing to bargain with so the terms of Peace are dictated by the conqueror. We would not stand for this type of ethnic cleasing , and this is what it is, on European soil (bosnia\Serbia) but it seems to be ok because it is against the Arabs. seems to me to be Double standrads on the part of the British Goverment\people.

GeorgeShaw

oldwelshman wrote:

Do you really believe that Palestinians are all normal people with normal aspirations? Utter crap. I agree there are probably some like that, but not the majority for sure.

I'd like to see you withdraw this, oldwelshman. It's borderline racist. I think most people everywhere are normal people with normal aspirations. It's only a small minority that aren't, even when they suffer the most appalling circumstances.

toontra

GeorgeShaw wrote:

oldwelshman wrote:

Do you really believe that Palestinians are all normal people with normal aspirations? Utter crap. I agree there are probably some like that, but not the majority for sure.

I'd like to see you withdraw this, oldwelshman. It's borderline racist. I think most people everywhere are normal people with normal aspirations. It's only a small minority that aren't, even when they suffer the most appalling circumstances.

It's not borderline racist, it's pure racism in it's strictest sense.

mr_hippo

mikedobson wrote:

Mr hippo.


I'm sorry but I really don't understand what you're saying! Are you asserting that there were no Palestinians in the area before 1948? That they magically appeared to defend the otherwise empty land as soon as it was gifted to the Jewish immigrants by the UN?

Please clarify.

I will write this slowly as you do not seem to be able to read fast. What do you not understand? The geograohical area between the River Jordan and the Mediterranean Sea has been known since ancient times as Palestine, the people living there are called Palestinians - I cannot put that in simpler terms.

Slurp

The geograohical area between the River Jordan and the Mediterranean Sea has been known since ancient times as Palestine, the people living there are called Palestinians - I cannot put that in simpler terms.

Hmmmm.... not simpler, but perhaps more complete. My understanding is that the area between the Jordan and the Med was known in ancient times as Canaan. Source=Old Testament, which contains no mention of "Palestine" to the best of my knowledge, which is as far back as I'm capable of going. During the times of the first & second Jewish commonwealths in that area (monarchies that also encompassed large parts of today's Lebanon, Syria and Jordan) the land was known as Judah or Israel. During that time a tribe known as the Philistines existed and was frequently, though not always, at war with the Jewish majority. That tribe eventually disappeared, perhaps wiped out, perhaps assimilated, I don't know.

My understanding is that the name Palestine was bestowed by those peace-loving, non-aggressive Romans, who conquered the land and deported many of the Jews. Note that their Palestine also included today's Jordan (which was split off by the British in the 1920s). They based the name on the by-then-long-gone Philistines and did so deliberately to remove any Jewish association. So "ancient" is actually only about 2,000 years old and today's Palestinians get that name from the land, not the other way round as you appear to imply.

This, I believe, is factual, rather than opinion. (apart from my characterization of the Romans and where I've indicated that I'm not sure).

As for the bike ride, not sure going through Gaza is a good idea, but I'd be happy to ride through most parts of Israel, which has a very lively bike scene.

cee

i was going to make a joke about humus/hummus/houmus/humous (there are loads of different spellings on t'intertubes)...but will hold myself back.

I was under the impression that the argument over whose land was whose goes back an awful lot longer than stated in this thread so far, and has been fought over by pretty much every religion going.

Someone (can't be bothered to look again) suggested that it all could have been fixed by giving a state/country to a religion, but i disagree with this. I believe religion and state should be kept apart...unless we start giving countries to the jedi, scientology, wikka etc....

I do believe that the security council needs to do more, but with so many hands tied in rope, with regard to the US position on Israel, the Iranian position on Hammas etc.....

This has been going on for as long as I was old enough to notice the news and feel that the worldwide press has chosen now to bring it back into the spotlight.

I also think the US has to admit it's liability in this. The whole issue would seem to be much simpler if other countries would stop looking after their own interests in the region and start looking out for the interests of the people who live on any side of the various borders.........

It does seem like the palestinians get the rough end of the stick, but only if the press reports the reality of the situation and not what its political goals require.

Upsetting.

finchy

cee wrote:

Someone (can't be bothered to look again) suggested that it all could have been fixed by giving a state/country to a religion, but i disagree with this. I believe religion and state should be kept apart...unless we start giving countries to the jedi, scientology, wikka etc....
(

I agree. Added to this, the fact that even if a state were set up with one religion, there would eventually be divisions within that religion (Catholic vs. Protestant, Shia vs. Shiite, the three Abrahamic religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, etc.) that would lead to just as many deaths as the wars between completely different religions.

oldwelshman

toontra wrote:

GeorgeShaw wrote:

oldwelshman wrote:

Do you really believe that Palestinians are all normal people with normal aspirations? Utter crap. I agree there are probably some like that, but not the majority for sure.

I'd like to see you withdraw this, oldwelshman. It's borderline racist. I think most people everywhere are normal people with normal aspirations. It's only a small minority that aren't, even when they suffer the most appalling circumstances.

It's not borderline racist, it's pure racism in it's strictest sense.

Utter rubbish.I am not racist at all.
How is saying that not all Palestinians do not aspire to peace racist? Some of the Palastinians do aspire to peace but unfortunatley a large number do not, that is a fact, not a racist comment.
Also where is this hatred of Arabs mentioned? I have not seen it mentioned and to think Iran is no threat to the Middle East or anywhere else is very naive.
The biggest problem is the fundamentalists ( nothing to do with Arabs or race ) who have no interest in peace and keep niggling away starting conflicts which escalate.
They cannot even live ampngst themselves peacefully and certainly do not want a democracy and they do not accept the state of Israel.
In Iraq they are forever blowing each other up.
There are moderates and extremists on both sides as in all conflicts and the current problem has certainly escalated following the arrival of hamas in Gaza. If they were got rid of there may be a chance for peace there.
Eventually the peace will have to be negotiated by the moderates of both sides as the current situation will not resolve anything, in fact it makes it worse. The only problem is I cannot really see Hamas negotiating becuase they do not recognise Israel so how can they negotiate.
A lot of the hatred between the Jews and their Neighbours goes back centuries so is not going to be resolved easily or quickly and it will realistically yake generation before mutual trust will be gained.
It can be done as there is a better relationship with Israel and Egypt and Jordan than before the 67 war obviously. I know it is not exactly the same but who would have said those countries would have got on as reasonably well as they do now?
Hopefully when Bush has left the USA presidancy then that might open some doors for forcing a ceasefire through, a real ceasefire.

jam1e

mikedobson wrote:

jam1e

No, I don't!

French resistance was to the occupation of its land - ditto Hamas.

How about if I shorten it to - "where German and Vichy soldiers and officials were stationed"

and then underline the important bits...

"where German and Vichy soldiers and officials were stationed"

would that make it clearer...?

The French Resistance didn't deliberately target innocent civillians, some were "collateral damage" when it was unavoidable. They didn't (unless I'm very much mistaken) deliberately enter Germany and then blow themselves up on a bus full of civillians outside a cafe - a favoured Hamas tactic. The Nazis were conducting a state sanctioned continent wide program of invasion, ethnic cleansing, murder, rape and torture. Despite what many people like to believe this isn't really the same as the Palestinian situation. (If it were, the inhabitants of Gaza would all have been killed twice)

The whys of the conflict have ceased to be a deciding issue for many people - it's the conduct of the two sides which is polarizing opinion.

Just to play the what if game for a second...

If Israel stopped the assault, grounded its planes, reopened the borders to workers etc and rushed food, aid and medicine to the Palestinians how long would it be before the first indiscriminately aimed rocket hit a border town or the first brainwashed suicide bomber detonated themselves on a Tel Aviv bus? - I reckon it wouldn't take long.