Ride for Palestine 2009

Gotte

There seem to be a lot of people here who know a lot about the middle east. Can someone put into perspective (hopefully without adding fuel to the fire), the role of Britain in all of this.
I saw a US documentary in the early 90s which seemed to suggest the British were somewhat reluctant to grant a state of Israel, and that it was only the continued pressure of the US that ended with the state of Israel being set up. There seemed the suggestion that Bevin (was it Bevin?) was anti-Semitic in his reluctance to smooth the process.
Indeed, I seem to remember the documentary suggest the British as a whole were antisemitic in their reluctance to grant the Jews a homeland.

What was the cause of Britain's reluctance to help create thed state of Israel? Was it simply the colonial hangover, or was it perhaps an idea that a Jewish state might be somewhat troublesome, given the politics of the area, or was it something else?

I suppose I could look it up on Wikipedia, but I do actually like to hear people's opinions as to the rights and wrongs of the thing. Then I can make my mind up where I stand.

Thanks

GeorgeShaw

Really oldwelshman, you should try to do better. But before responding. I'd like to say that I condemn without reservation the Hamas rockets and suicide bombers, and I, too think that this can only be resolved by getting moderates on both sides together and creating a political settlement, as there is no possibility of a military settlement, unless it is intended to force the Palestinians from the whole of (modern) Palestine. But to get to a few points:

How is saying that not all Palestinians do not aspire to peace racist? Some of the Palastinians do aspire to peace but unfortunatley a large number do not, that is a fact, not a racist comment.

No, what you said was that the majority of Palestinians were not normal people with normal aspirations. That is racist.

... and to think Iran is no threat to the Middle East or anywhere else is very naive.

Hamas are Sunnis, not Shias. The link between Hamas and Iran is purely practical.

The biggest problem is the fundamentalists ( nothing to do with Arabs or race ) ...

Hamas are not fundamentalists, and have no connection with Al Quaeda, for example. The former leading party in Palestine is Fatah, who are secular, and have had many Christians in their leadership. It's not a well-known fact that many Palestinians are Christians.

... who have no interest in peace and keep niggling away starting conflicts which escalate.

I think you need to be more balanced here about who "starts" conflicts. The start of the current escalation came about after the end of the previous ceasefire. Almost no rockets were launched during the ceasefire. However Israel had imposed a heavier blockade of Gaza, rather then reducing it (which was part of the ceasefire agreement). In reality both parties probably found it convenient to end the ceasefire, as a way to boost their political position internally - Israel has an election coming up, and wars are always popular.

... and certainly do not want a democracy ...

Hamas were democratically elected, in a free election that was passed by EU monitors. Now I admit that this is problematic - but you can't dictate to a people that you want them to have a democracy, and them complain when they elect people you don't like. And the truth is that Hamas are popular because Fatah are now corrupt and have delivered little for their people.

... and they do not accept the state of Israel.

That's fair enough, but you have to remember that Israel was created by stealing 78% of Palestine from it's existing population, and we are currently negotiating about the other 22%, which Israel is still building new settlements on, even today. After so many years, it's no surprise that the Palestinians might be desperate.

In Iraq they are forever blowing each other up.

Well not before Saddam was deposed, but that's a different story.

A lot of the hatred between the Jews and their Neighbours goes back centuries ...

In fact Jews lived in the old Ottoman Empire without too many problems (comparatively with other countries in the same era). Far more Jews have been killed by Christians in Europe and pre-Soviet Russia.

It can be done as there is a better relationship with Israel and Egypt and Jordan than before the 67 war obviously. I know it is not exactly the same but who would have said those countries would have got on as reasonably well as they do now?

Except that they don't. Egypt is effectively a dictatorship, propped up by US money and the military. If there was a fair election tomorrow, then most likely the Muslim Brotherhood would win. Jordan is better, but also a monarchy, i.e. non-democratic.

The problem in the Middle East is that the Israel/Palestine conflict poisons the whole area, and the internal politics of Israel and all of the Arab countries. Until we get a proper political solution, and hopefully the new US President can re-start this process after the buffoon Bush has departed.

toontra

Thanks for the detailed and level-headed analysis George.

The extremes on both sides need to be isolated and proper representatives forced into meaningful negotiations. The Palestinians have to give up terrorism and the Israelis have to give up land - in fact the borders need re-drawing.

mikedobson

Jam1e

Still a bit confused mate, I think, if you read what you've written again, you'll see that you're making my point for me!

drewfromrisca

Anyone from the boards actually go to the demo on the weekend?

Anyone see the unbelievable violence that the protester's used?

A friend of mine was working on Sat night and witnesses an arabic male drag a shield of a police officer, whack him in the head with it then helped along with a number of others drag him into the crowd and seriously assault him. He then proceeded to hold the shield above his head and shout " KILL THE WHITE SCUM".

Why is it these idiots always seem to tag along to demo's??? :x

Royal Dragoon

drewfromrisca wrote:

Anyone from the boards actually go to the demo on the weekend?

Anyone see the unbelievable violence that the protester's used?

A friend of mine was working on Sat night and witnesses an arabic male drag a shield of a police officer, whack him in the head with it then helped along with a number of others drag him into the crowd and seriously assault him. He then proceeded to hold the shield above his head and shout " KILL THE WHITE SCUM".

Why is it these idiots always seem to tag along to demo's??? :x

At last, some one who noticed that this peace protest wasn't exactly peacefull........... :? :?


Now how will the posters blame THAT on the Jewish people, 'cos blame them they will :roll: :roll:

jam1e

If you think I'm agreeing with your misguided attempt to draw moral equivalency between the French Resistance targetting German/Vichy soldiers and officials and Hamas targetting innocent Israeli civilians I suggest you read my post again.

The resistance didn't deliberately target purely civilian targets, some civilians were collateral damage. (On a side note, those civilians killed were French so a true equivalent would be Hamas killing Palestinian civilians, whilst striking Israeli military and governmental targets.)

Israel does not deliberately target purely civilian targets, some civilians are collateral damage. Anyone who believes the IDF has deliberately targetted civilans and yet "only" killed 900 is clearly unaware of how many people would be killed if the Israelis really went after innocents.

Hamas does deliberately target civilians.

Like I said, intent.

toontra

jam1e wrote:

Israel does not deliberately target purely civilian targets, some civilians are collateral damage. Anyone who believes the IDF has deliberately targetted civilans and yet "only" killed 900 is clearly unaware of how many people would be killed if the Israelis really went after innocents.

Hamas does deliberately target civilians.

Like I said, intent.

I prefer the body count to your spurious "intent" theory. I guess we should be grateful that they're only killing women and children in the hundreds, yes? If they really meant business then it would be thousands. Stalin would be proud of you.

An Irsaeli gunship pilot was interviewed on the BBC news this evening. He said he knew that each missile he fired would result in civilian casualties, but hey, that was war. Sounds pretty much like intent to me, or such callous disregard for life that it's tantamount to intent.

drewfromrisca

Another 'peaceful' way of getting a point across is to throw bricks through starbucks windows (whilst people are in it) with notes attached saying - "Stop Supporting Israeli Bombers - This Will Not Stop Until The War Stops"

Crazy...

jam1e

So what was he actually aiming at?

Would you change sides if the Hamas managed to pull off some sort of spectacular and outstripped the israelis in the innocents killed competition?

I just prefer to identify with those who at least make an effort to avoid civilian deaths - you prefer to support those deliberately targetting jewish civilians. Fine, we'll just agree to disagree.

On a seperate note, do you believe that if Hamas switched tactics and only attacked "legitimate" Israeli military and governmental targets they would gain more respect from the rest of the world and increase pressure for a political settlement?

toontra

drewfromrisca wrote:

Another 'peaceful' way of getting a point across is to throw bricks through starbucks windows (whilst people are in it) with notes attached saying - "Stop Supporting Israeli Bombers - This Will Not Stop Until The War Stops"

Crazy...

What are you trying to say here? What makes your related incident worthy of repetition. Are you suggesting that the behaviour of a handful of protesters undermines the validity of the Palestinian cause? If not, what exactly are you saying?

I don't think it's particularly useful to reduce an entrenched conflict currently responsible for the slaughter of hundreds of innocent civilians into a discussion about what a couple of nutters did to a Starbucks window in West London. Try and get some perspective for heavens' sake.

mikedobson

jam1e

Read it again my friend, this time try to use more than your primitive brain stem.

drewfromrisca

I've got plenty of perspective don't worry.

Good luck to the real demonstrators.

Tell you what, how about instead of demonstrating at venues across the country thousands of miles away (which don't make a blind bit of difference the majority of the time), why don't these people give up their time and go over there and volunteer to help with the wounded/sick etc etc???

jam1e

Maybe he's highlighting the fact that at the minute very few supporters of Israel have gone on any kind of vandalism spree whereas some supporters of the Palestinian cause think they have the right to indiscriminately attack and intimidate random innocent people...

Palestinian supporters chucking rocks at innocents in Starbucks - Hamas chucking rockets at innocents in Serdot and Ashquelon...

I'm not saying there's a link but it's not making the Palestinian cause any easier or more likely to have a successful outcome.

toontra

jam1e wrote:

I just prefer to identify with those who at least make an effort to avoid civilian deaths - you prefer to support those deliberately targetting jewish civilians. Fine, we'll just agree to disagree.

Show me where I have even implied that I support targeting Jewish civilians. Any death is reprehensible. All I would say is that if you imprison, impoverish, starve and subjugate an animal, don't expect it to behave like a lap-dog.

Proportionality in war is one of the tenets of civilisation and is embedded in the Geneva Convention. It is flouted only by the worst despots through history and, currently, Israel. An eye for an eyelash is their modus operandi.

jam1e wrote:

On a seperate note, do you believe that if Hamas switched tactics and only attacked "legitimate" Israeli military and governmental targets they would gain more respect from the rest of the world and increase pressure for a political settlement?

I guess we'll never know. With their military inferiority (it's a joke to actually think of it as a capability) they're unable to do more than lob fertiliser fireworks with the accuracy of a drunken dart player. They wouldn't be able to carry out targeted attacks if they wanted to.

On the other hand, the Israelis have a state-of-the-art military capacity yet they are either totally, monstrously incompetent or they are they are happy to kill civilians. Your "intent" is a red herring.

jam1e

mikedobson wrote:

jam1e

Read it again my friend, this time try to use more than your primitive brain stem.

Shame - your argument has descended to the personal abuse stage, the first sign someone has run out of ideas...

Point at the bits you're struggling with, I'll try and crayon you up a simpler explanation.

toontra

drewfromrisca wrote:

I've got plenty of perspective don't worry.

Good luck to the real demonstrators.

Tell you what, how about instead of demonstrating at venues across the country thousands of miles away (which don't make a blind bit of difference the majority of the time), why don't these people give up their time and go over there and volunteer to help with the wounded/sick etc etc???

Apartheid was partly ended by ordinary people protesting around the world, thus bringing pressure to bear on their governments to exercise the real power. I was proud of the part protests in the UK played in that process.

What we are starting to see now in London and around the world is the start of the same process. Dismiss it if you will and concentrate on the "tragedy" of the broken window, but sitting on your arse getting things way out of perspective sure isn't going to help anyone.

jam1e

toontra wrote:

jam1e wrote:

I just prefer to identify with those who at least make an effort to avoid civilian deaths - you prefer to support those deliberately targetting jewish civilians. Fine, we'll just agree to disagree.

Show me where I have even implied that I support targeting Jewish civilians. Any death is reprehensible. All I would say is that if you imprison, impoverish, starve and subjugate an animal, don't expect it to behave like a lap-dog.

Proportionality in war is one of the tenets of civilisation and is embedded in the Geneva Convention. It is flouted only by the worst despots through history and, currently, Israel. An eye for an eyelash is their modus operandi.

jam1e wrote:

On a seperate note, do you believe that if Hamas switched tactics and only attacked "legitimate" Israeli military and governmental targets they would gain more respect from the rest of the world and increase pressure for a political settlement?

I guess we'll never know. With their military inferiority (it's a joke to actually think of it as a capability) they're unable to do more than lob fertiliser fireworks with the accuracy of a drunken dart player. They wouldn't be able to carry out targeted attacks if they wanted to.

On the other hand, the Israelis have a state-of-the-art military capacity yet they are either totally, monstrously incompetent or they are they are happy to kill civilians. Your "intent" is a red herring.

Not going to scan through the posts again but I don't remember you specifically condeming it. (If you have then fair enough.)

You believe intent is a red herring - good for you. A lot of people don't.

redddraggon

toontra wrote:

They wouldn't be able to carry out targeted attacks if they wanted to.

Surely one knows when to blow oneself up in the right place? So are you really telling me they can't target accurately? Surely they know the difference between barracks and a cafe/public transport/synagogue?

don key

mikedobson wrote:

Thanks Toontra, sometimes feels like a voice in the wilderness, good to get your support.

Mike

Another voice from from the bewilderedness available from me.

mikedobson

jam1e

Not run out of arguments at all, but I fear they may be too subtle to penetrate your ossified brain.

You freely admit that French resistance killed civilians in their defence of Free France, albeit accidentally, or collaterally. Nevertheless, they killed civilians, and they knew they would kill civilians, and nobody suggests that it was right but everybody accepted that it was justified because they were under an occupation that robbed them of their liberty and rights and the free world supported them in this and on and on and for god's sake man are you starting to see the trap you set for yourself?

Palestinians, stripped of any military power, stripped of hope, stripped of dignity, stripped of life have every right to resist HOWEVER THEY CAN their occupation.

I served in the IDF, I stood on Palestinian soil and ordered old men to strip off in the street, turned grieving relatives away at checkpoints, hosed down youths. I'm guessing you have not. I know the sort of degradations and humiliations these people suffer - quite aside from the slaughter now taking place - and I am telling you as someone who loves Israel that I do not blame the Palestinians for lashing out at us. Because I know that the world is more or less the right way up and that we teach our children the difference between good and evil, because everybody loves a happy ending, because the good guy always gets the girl, because evil MUST be resisted wherever it is realised and and and and that anyone who has a chance to opine on what is going on and who DOES NOT condemn the onslaught in Gaza is just plain old fashioned honest to goodness...wrong!

Peace brother, look into your soul, inshalla you may find some little chink of light bright enough to illuminate your thoughts.

jam1e

Seriously, how do you not understand my point? The resistance killed innocents by accident, Hamas do it on purpose.

Unless your subtle yet elusive arguments have some way of making the above untrue... As for our children knowing right from wrong, does this include the ones with a c4 vest and a 1 way ticket to Tel Aviv?

Despite your flowery and emotional rhetoric yours is not the only opinion around, the sooner you realize that the more credibility your views will have. I've presented mine as an opinion, you present yours as fact. But hey, it's that kind of intolerance the tolerant left love so much.

toontra

So your contention is that all this slaughter is collateral damage and all that Israelis wants is to live in peace alongside their Palestinian neighbours? A lot is made of the Hamas charter and various claims to "wipe Israel off the map"

For balance, please read the following:

Quote:
"Ours will be a brutal land of pens stretching between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean that will make South African apartheid pale."
(Yigal Bronner, 17 September 2003)

Quote:
We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population." Israel Koenig, "The Koenig Memorandum"

Quote:
"We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves." Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983

Quote:
"We Jews, we are the destroyers and will remain the destroyers. Nothing you can do will meet our demands and needs. We will forever destroy because we want a world of our own." (You Gentiles, by Jewish Author Maurice Samuels, p. 155).

Quote:
"We enthusiastically chose to become a colonial society, ignoring international treaties, expropriating lands, transferring settlers from Israel to the occupied territories, engaging in theft and finding justification for all these activities. Passionately desiring to keep the occupied territories, we developed two judicial systems: one - progressive, liberal - in Israel; and the other - cruel, injurious - in the occupied territories. In effect, we established an apartheid regime in the occupied territories immediately following their capture. That oppressive regime exists to this day."
(Michael Ben-Yair, 3 March 2002)

Quote:
" [The Palestinians are] beasts walking on two legs." Menahim Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the Beasts". New Statesman, 25 June 1982.

Quote:
The Palestinians" would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls." " Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

Quote:
"The thesis that the danger of genocide was hanging over us in June 1967 and that Israel was fighting for its physical existence is only bluff, which was born and developed after the war." Israeli General Matityahu Peled, Ha'aretz, 19 March 1972

Quote:
" ... we should prepare to go over to the offensive with the aim of smashing Lebanon, Trans-jordan and Syria... The weak point in the Arab coalition is Lebanon [for] the Moslem regime is artificial and easy to undermine. A Christian state should be established... When we smash the [Arab] Legions strength and bomb Amman, we will eliminate Transjordan, too, and then Syria will fall. If Egypt still dares to fight on, we shall bomb Port Said, Alexandria, and Cairo." " David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978

Quote:
"We'll make a pastrami sandwich of them, ... we'll insert a strip of Jewish settlements in between the Palestinians, and then another strip of Jewish settlements right across the West Bank, so that in 25 years' time, neither the United Nations nor the United States, nobody, will be able to tear it apart."
(Ariel (Arik) Sharon, 1973)

Quote:
"Let us approach them [the Palestinian refugees in the occupied territories] and say that we have no solution, that you shall continue to live like dogs, and whoever wants to can leave -- and we will see where this process leads. In five years we may have 200,000 less people - and that is a matter of enormous importance."
(Moshe Dayan, September 1967)

Quote:
"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves .. politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country. ... Behind the terrorism [by the Arabs] is a movement, which though primitive is not devoid of idealism and self sacrifice."
(David Ben-Gurion, 1938)

Quote:
"Israel, having ceased to care about the children of the Palestinians, should not be surprised when they come washed in hatred and blow themselves up in the centres of Israeli escapism. They consign themselves to Allah in our places of recreation, because their own lives are torture. They spill their own blood in our restaurants in order to ruin our appetites, because they have children and parents at home who are hungry and humiliated."
(Avraham Burg, 15 September 2003)

Whereas the Hamas oratory is arguably aspirational and ideological, what you read above is more like a 50-year plan of operation. The difference is that the Israelis actually have the power to accomplish their aims, and seem to be doing a fairly good job of it.

Please drop this rubbish about "intent".

jam1e

No.

Regardless of the rights and wrongs of the Palestinian cause I'm never going to support people who view the use of children to blow up innocents as acceptable.

Now stop your attempts to tell me this view is less valid than yours...

finchy

jam1e wrote:

No.

Regardless of the rights and wrongs of the Palestinian cause I'm never going to support people who view the use of children to blow up innocents as acceptable.

Now stop your attempts to tell me this view is less valid than yours...

jam1e - I think the point that other posters are making is that the Palestinians have, over several decades, been subjected to far more brutal treatment than they have handed out to the Israelis.

As a secular left-winger, I have no time for political Islam (or any other religion mixed with politics), but I can understand why Palestinians would see Hamas as a legitimate resistance movement. And please, don't anyone come out with that "you're a left winger therefore you must be an intolerant anti-semite" rubbish - I'm not justifying deaths, I'm just saying that given the treatment of the Palestinians, violent extremism is inevitable.

phil s

I haven't read through all the posts, it makes me increasingly depressed. All I will say is that there is NO justification for the deaths of innocents and above all children, be they Israeli or Palestinian. We in Britain are increasingly desensitized to the horrors of real life out there and some of you would not be so casual or cynical in your remarks if you experienced war and death and lives being ripped apart at close hand.
Peace and tolerance, please, on all sides.

lateralus

phil s wrote:

I haven't read through all the posts, it makes me increasingly depressed. All I will say is that there is NO justification for the deaths of innocents and above all children, be they Israeli or Palestinian. We in Britain are increasingly desensitized to the horrors of real life out there and some of you would not be so casual or cynical in your remarks if you experienced war and death and lives being ripped apart at close hand.
Peace and tolerance, please, on all sides.

+1. Well said.

mikedobson

...and justice?

jam1e - what is the intemt of a burglar? To get rich or to break the law?

NickCalv

Wish I hadn't bothered reading some of the posts here. I only read page 1 after seeing the topic on the main BikeRadar site, but clearly some real f*cking idiots (special mention goes to gkerr4) frequent this forum - makes me remember why I stay away from forums and the general losers who frequent them and have their silly little arguments with each other.

Over and out. For good.

Bugly

good luck you obviously believe in your cause - accept that many others have contrary views and a cycling forum is not going to change minds.

Hope you dont fall to friendly fire :evil: