Shimano and Campagnolo systems

whyamihere

lost_in_thought wrote:

Now I get the thumb bit - that article was very good - but don't understand about sweeping the middle finger across.

Sorry, that was for shifting the other way, using the lever behind the brake lever. You just push it with your middle finger and it shifts easily

Also, am I right in thinking that with campagnolo you can move several gears at once in either direction, but with shimano you can only do it to bigger gears?

Correct

Lastly (for now) how true are the rumours about Campagnolo unreliability? Who's had problems and who hasn't?
I've never had any problems with either personally. Worth bearing in mind though, that Shimano bits aren't serviceable. If you break a spring, with Camapg you're paying a couple of quid for a new one. With Shimano you're paying hundreds for new shifters...

For clarity, I'd be looking at either record or super, and dura-ace from Shimano. Not sure about the electrical ones though... seems a bit overcomplicated. Thoughts?

I wouldn't go electrical yet. Wait a while and it will come down in price, while reliability and battery life go up. You know you want Super Record anyway.

Thanks again, this is really helpful!

Ian.B

lost_in_thought wrote:

Lastly (for now) how true are the rumours about Campagnolo unreliability? Who's had problems and who hasn't?

I've not had a problem with Campag (current bike is about 4 years old)

lost_in_thought wrote:

For clarity, I'd be looking at either record or super, and dura-ace from Shimano. Not sure about the electrical ones though... seems a bit overcomplicated. Thoughts?

Lucky you! Just Centaur for me on my new bike

Ian

lost_in_thought

whyamihere wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

Lastly (for now) how true are the rumours about Campagnolo unreliability? Who's had problems and who hasn't?
I've never had any problems with either personally. Worth bearing in mind though, that Shimano bits aren't serviceable. If you break a spring, with Camapg you're paying a couple of quid for a new one. With Shimano you're paying hundreds for new shifters...

Seriously? I don't disbelieve you, but that's really surprising!

So if, for example, I ding one of the levers, on the campagnolo I just buy a new lever, but with Shimano I have to buy the whole assembly again? And presumably you can't buy just one side? If this is a bad example, please replace 'ding one of the levers' with something applicable...

Blimey.

whyamihere

Yeah, it's true unfortunately. Definitely an argument in favour of Campag being cheaper in the long run.

biondino

This thread is basically an excuse to say "okay, I am completely justified in getting Super Record", isn't it

itboffin

biondino wrote:

This thread is basically an excuse to say "okay, I am completely justified in getting Super Record", isn't it

Are you trying to justify it...

Just kidding

lost_in_thought

biondino wrote:

This thread is basically an excuse to say "okay, I am completely justified in getting Super Record", isn't it

Actually, no! Cheeky Blondie...

I really don't care what people think is better or worse, it's more to understand the differences between the two main systems... hence the strict 'no debating' rules which you so blatantly disregarded

Bike shop guy tried to explain the different shifting systems and lost me completely with technical terms. Hence this thread!

I have to say I'm really a bit shocked that you can't replace bits of the shimano systems. That seems quite impractical... Is that only true of the shifters, or the mechs/other bits too?

itboffin

lost_in_thought wrote:

I have to say I'm really a bit shocked that you can't replace bits of the shimano systems. That seems quite impractical... Is that only true of the shifters, or the mechs/other bits too?

Especially when you see how expensive those Shimano shifters are, all the other components seem cheap by comparison, I've even considered buying a whole bike and selling the rest just to get the shifters.

whyamihere

lost_in_thought wrote:

I have to say I'm really a bit shocked that you can't replace bits of the shimano systems. That seems quite impractical... Is that only true of the shifters, or the mechs/other bits too?

You can replace certain small bits of DA mechs etc. For example, the non-drive crank arms are available as spares, as are the bearing adjusters, and springs, bolts and some parts of the cage for the rear mech. It's still not as serviceable as Campag (even my old Mirage can be taken completely to bits). Problem is that the shifter units are easily the most expensive part, and not at all serviceable. Have a search on the roadie board for the problems people have been having with Tiagra shifters, a tiny bit of plastic breaks and there's a £100 repair bill.

ratherbeintobago

whyamihere wrote:

Problem is that the shifter units are easily the most expensive part, and not at all serviceable. Have a search on the roadie board for the problems people have been having with Tiagra shifters, a tiny bit of plastic breaks and there's a £100 repair bill.

Is this also true of SRAM?

RBIT

dennisn

The OP is trolling and knew before this post was started that it would turn into a Campy
vs. Shimano thing. Anyone who wants to know how these systems work has only to
walk into just about any bike shop and ask to be shown. If you are even on this forum
I would assume that you know how they work. Even the lowliest beginner knows how this stuff works or if they don't they go to a shop to find out(it would take the shop all of 10 minutes to show the basics). Troll big time.

Dennis Noward

itboffin

dennisn wrote:

The OP is trolling and knew before this post was started that it would turn into a Campy
vs. Shimano thing. Anyone who wants to know how these systems work has only to
walk into just about any bike shop and ask to be shown. If you are even on this forum
I would assume that you know how they work. Even the lowliest beginner knows how this stuff works or if they don't they go to a shop to find out(it would take the shop all of 10 minutes to show the basics). Troll big time.

Dennis Noward

How very dare you sir, the OP is a delightful person and a past master of the SCR, I suggest you read the 506 pages of the SCR thread before making such claims.

whyamihere

ratherbeintobago wrote:

whyamihere wrote:

Problem is that the shifter units are easily the most expensive part, and not at all serviceable. Have a search on the roadie board for the problems people have been having with Tiagra shifters, a tiny bit of plastic breaks and there's a £100 repair bill.

Is this also true of SRAM?

RBIT

As far as I know, yes. I'm very willing to be proven wrong though, as I'd love to try a Sram groupset at some point.

alfablue

Serviceability of shifters could be an issue (and I have noted some of the Tiagra woes), but in testament to the durability of Shimano shifters, I have a set of RSX shifters (probably Tiagra/105 level in its day) that are now in their 12th year on my audax bike that has done tens of thousands of miles and has crashed a few times (once painfully seriously), and whilst the shifters have been knocked out of place they still work perfectly. So whilst you may not be able to repair them, you may be lucky and never have to! Any components that can survive my abuse over this length of time has proven itself beyond the call of duty IMHO.

greg66_tri_v2.0

I'd steer clear of Super Record. Not because of quality, but image. It's the sort of kit that loaded American dentists lavish on their über-specced Sunday bike. Which they don't ride any other day, and that's the only day they ride.

Record 11 is perfectly good. And there's a substantial body of opinion that Chorus competes with DA, rather than Record, although that may have changed since Shimsno brought out their DA7900 (which is v pricey, but which has concealed cabling from the STIs - at long last).

I've got Chorus and a Chorus/Centaur mix on the bikes here, and Ultegra on another one. In truth, whatever you start with is what you'll like. I prefer the shifting of Campag, even though Shimano is quieter. I like the solid feedback/sound of the Campag shift. Otoh, the older non concealed cabling Shimano shitters offer more hand positions and for that are marginally preferable for long (>65 mile) rides.

Ian.B

itboffin wrote:

dennisn wrote:

The OP is trolling and knew before this post was started that it would turn into a Campy
vs. Shimano thing. Anyone who wants to know how these systems work has only to
walk into just about any bike shop and ask to be shown. If you are even on this forum
I would assume that you know how they work. Even the lowliest beginner knows how this stuff works or if they don't they go to a shop to find out(it would take the shop all of 10 minutes to show the basics). Troll big time.

Dennis Noward

How very dare you sir, the OP is a delightful person and a past master of the SCR, I suggest you read the 506 pages of the SCR thread before making such claims.

I must confess I had to look up what a troll is in this context (Wikipedia: "Someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the intention of provoking other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion")

It seems to me on this definition that Dennis Noward is the troll, disrupting a perfectly amiable and genuine discussion we have all been having with an abusive post.

ratherbeintobago

Ian.B wrote:

It seems to me on this definition that Dennis Noward is the troll, disrupting a perfectly amiable and genuine discussion we have all been having with an abusive post.

Based on some of his other postings elsewhere, I can only agree.

RBIT

dennisn

Ian.B wrote:

itboffin wrote:

dennisn wrote:

The OP is trolling and knew before this post was started that it would turn into a Campy
vs. Shimano thing. Anyone who wants to know how these systems work has only to
walk into just about any bike shop and ask to be shown. If you are even on this forum
I would assume that you know how they work. Even the lowliest beginner knows how this stuff works or if they don't they go to a shop to find out(it would take the shop all of 10 minutes to show the basics). Troll big time.

Dennis Noward

How very dare you sir, the OP is a delightful person and a past master of the SCR, I suggest you read the 506 pages of the SCR thread before making such claims.

I must confess I had to look up what a troll is in this context (Wikipedia: "Someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the intention of provoking other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion")

It seems to me on this definition that Dennis Noward is the troll, disrupting a perfectly amiable and genuine discussion we have all been having with an abusive post.

Let me ask you this. Who posts 2268 times in one year, on a cycling forum, and doesn't
know the difference between Campy and Shimano? Could it be "lost in thought"?
And yes, I have been called a troll on this forum many times, so it sort of makes me an
expert on it wouldn't you say? In any case ease up, no one really cares, as there are trolls all over this forum. I'm simply calling one out. :roll: :roll:

Dennis Noward

lost_in_thought

Greg66 wrote:

Otoh, the older non concealed cabling Shimano shitters offer more hand positions and for that are marginally preferable for long (>65 mile) rides.

Freudian slip?

Only joking

Well, thanks people! I am now a very well-informed young lady! Not a troll though... not intentionally anyway!

I have to say (sorry Biondino) that based on this I am leaning towards the Campagnolo option. I will still have a look at both at the next beers, where I owe you all a pint!

One more question...

When you're shifting on either system and want to do the several-gears-at-once thing, do you feel the 'clicks' for each gear as you go through/to it? Does that make sense?

And how hard/easy is it with the campagnolo system to shift several gears with your thumb? It may have become obvious that I am slightly concerned about my thumb strength.

itboffin

I've not double or even triple shifted on the campy kit but do quite a lot on my shimano I think that's part of why some people choose sides, with the shimano I sometime have to look back because i've over shifted, with SRAM & campy I can hear the clicks.

The situation is made worse on my MTB & hybrid they both have shimano but reversed up/down shifting to a lower gear going up hill is not a mistake to make twice :?

You know I wonder if he has ever been to Coventry ...?

Jen J

dennisn wrote:

The OP is trolling and knew before this post was started that it would turn into a Campy
vs. Shimano thing. Anyone who wants to know how these systems work has only to
walk into just about any bike shop and ask to be shown. If you are even on this forum
I would assume that you know how they work. Even the lowliest beginner knows how this stuff works or if they don't they go to a shop to find out(it would take the shop all of 10 minutes to show the basics). Troll big time.

Dennis Noward

I'm quite stunned.

Anyone who has spent any time at all frequenting this forum will know LiT, and know that she is as far from a troll as you can get. If you know this then how dare you make such an accusation?

If you haven't spent any time here, and so have a genuine excuse for not knowing LiT, then how dare you just wade in here and start accusing people you don't know?

ratherbeintobago

Jen J wrote:

I'm quite stunned.

Anyone who has spent any time at all frequenting this forum will know LiT, and know that she is as far from a troll as you can get. If you know this then how dare you make such an accusation?

If you haven't spent any time here, and so have a genuine excuse for not knowing LiT, then how dare you just wade in here and start accusing people you don't know?

Jen,

DNFTT. He has form. If we ignore him, he might go away.

RBIT

alfablue

I do like reading Dennis's posts, usually, he has a wealth of experience and often has a valid, if alternative perspective. I don't much like name calling of any kind however, and in LiT's defence (as if she needs it) she rides SS as far as I know, so would not have the experience of such things as shifters like many of us do, also, as far as I can tell from reading her posts she rates extremely highly in the integrity stakes IMHO. Peace bro's.

coffeecup

I just like having carbon everywhere, and the campy stuff performs really, really well

Campy Chorus - Carbon shifters, carbon crank, even carbon on the rear mech
weighs 2281g , costs about £699



Shimano Dura Ace - metal shifters, metal crank and metal everywhere else
weighs 2305g (OK not much weight difference) and costs about £740

alfablue

The pictures compare double with triple, are the weights and prices correct for double/double?

Clearly the campag looks nicer, but for me it would be about hood comfort and the quality of the feel when shifting. Never tried campag, so I don't know, though I am averse to the thumb lever, yet like the concealed cables.

2009 Dura Ace looks different, weighs less than 2000g and has concealed cable options

http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/s ... ased-16751

always_tyred

whyamihere wrote:

Always Tyred wrote:

whyamihere wrote:

biondino wrote:

Campag is all expensive style over substance, and every time you change gear it sounds like someone has just run a plough into your rear mech.

Except that it's cheaper than Shimano.

? No it isn't - its notoriously over priced! ?

Price up a Veloce groupset against 105 (same component level) or Centaur against Ultegra. You'll see.

Those aren't equivalent levels. There are currently 2 DA and 2 Ultegra groupsets, a 105 and Tiagra and below. There's Super Record, Record, Chorus and so on. All you have done is take a shimano group and make the next cheapest campag group its equivalent. Of course, if you are predisposed to believe that campag is "better" then you might suppose that DA is the same as Chorus, for example.

And its not all about the mass of the groupset, by the way, unless you are stuck in a weight weenie folly.

Anyway, for as long as I've been cycling (which is longer than you!) the top Campy stuff has been rather more expensive than anything else available. So there.

il_principe

dennisn wrote:

The OP is trolling and knew before this post was started that it would turn into a Campy
vs. Shimano thing. Anyone who wants to know how these systems work has only to
walk into just about any bike shop and ask to be shown. If you are even on this forum
I would assume that you know how they work. Even the lowliest beginner knows how this stuff works or if they don't they go to a shop to find out(it would take the shop all of 10 minutes to show the basics). Troll big time.

Dennis Noward

:shock:

Only just in 2009 and we have a contender for the most ill informed post of the year! Ridiculous statement Dennis, many posting on this topic have met LiT in person and she is emphatically not a troll, although she had a gollum once. Might want to LBYL next time
:?

cjcp

alfablue wrote:

Clearly the campag looks nicer, but for me it would be about hood comfort and the quality of the feel when shifting. Never tried campag, so I don't know, though I am averse to the thumb lever, yet like the concealed cables.

This is exactly why I like Shimano, having previously had Campag Veloce on my first road bike. I never really got on with the thumb lever. (I've got a spare 105 Chainset which I'll put on my commuter once it's time to put the present Ultegra one out to pasture. I quite like the "lots of metal" look on it. But I've never been very good on the style front. For example, I also drive a people carrier.)

cjcp

jashburnham wrote:

dennisn wrote:

The OP is trolling and knew before this post was started that it would turn into a Campy
vs. Shimano thing. Anyone who wants to know how these systems work has only to
walk into just about any bike shop and ask to be shown. If you are even on this forum
I would assume that you know how they work. Even the lowliest beginner knows how this stuff works or if they don't they go to a shop to find out(it would take the shop all of 10 minutes to show the basics). Troll big time.

Dennis Noward

:shock:

Only just in 2009 and we have a contender for the most ill informed post of the year! Ridiculous statement Dennis, many posting on this topic have met LiT in person and she is emphatically not a troll, although she had a gollum once. Might want to LBYL next time
:?

+1

LiT is sound.

DonDaddyD

lost_in_thought wrote:

For clarity, I'd be looking at either record or super, and dura-ace from Shimano. Not sure about the electrical ones though... seems a bit overcomplicated. Thoughts?

:shock:

So I take it you turned down the option of a private jet then?

A bike!!!!?? JEEZ you must be the black sheep of the family... what with not wanting to fly to Tesco's and Lidl... :roll: