Shimano and Campagnolo systems

lost_in_thought

OK, look here you lot.

I don't want to start a 'Shimano is better than Campagnolo' or a 'Campagnolo is brilliant Shimano sucks' debate here.

If anyone starts debating I will come round there and kick you in the shins. OK? So don't.

What I do want to know is this:

What is the actual difference between the two? Again if anyone jumps in and says either one is better I will refer you to the above.

What is the difference, most importantly, between the two sets of shifter/brake lever assemblies and how you go about shifting up and down.

To give you some background, I have never used either system, or really seen them used, so I have no idea how either one actually physically works, the extent of my current knowledge is that I know you have to push the brake lever. That's it.

And I'm currently in the process of creating an uber-bike, so need to know.

Thanks in advance.

No arguing.

il_principe

You're getting a Viner aren't you? Viner's are Italian so you have to get Campagnolo. End of debate.

Good article on Campag gears here:

http://bicycleswest.com/page.cfm?pageID=431

biondino

Campag is all expensive style over substance, and every time you change gear it sounds like someone has just run a plough into your rear mech.

whyamihere

Shimano:
Most systems: The brake lever swings to the side and changes to larger cassette cogs and larger chainrings. There is a second lever behind the brake lever which shifts the other way
Sora: Brake lever is the same, but instead of the small lever there is a small thumb button on the side
Dura Ace Di2: Electric, the brake lever doesn't move sideways, 2 buttons behind the brake lever.

Campagnolo:
Brake lever doesn't move sideways. There is a lever behind the brake lever which changes to larger cogs/chainrings, and a thumb button for smaller cogs/rings. The button is lower than Sora, so can actually be reached from the drops by people with human anatomies.

Sram:
Brake lever doesn't move sideways. There is a single lever behind the brake lever. If you tap this, you shift into a smaller cog/ring. If you push it further, you go into a larger cog/ring.

Sunrace:
See Shimano most systems

whyamihere

biondino wrote:

Campag is all expensive style over substance, and every time you change gear it sounds like someone has just run a plough into your rear mech.

Except that it's cheaper than Shimano.

Jen J

From a user's point of view, and having very little bike knowledge, the main difference is in the placement of the levers. With Campag, there is a button for your thumb to move up the sprockets and down the front rings and a lever behind the brake lever to do the opposite. With Shimano, both up and down is controlled by levers next to each other - the brake lever is the equivalent of the Campag one, and the lever behind is the equivalent of the Campag button.

In very simple terms, that's about it.

biondino

(actually I just say that instinctively these days. I love my Dura-Ace and can recommend it but not compare it in any meaningful sense. I think the thing to do is work out what the material differences are - cables visible vs hidden, for example, 11 sprockets or 10, or Campy's weird button upshift thing - and figure out which suits you best)

jonginge

Now I like my Shimano DuraAce but I concur with Jash. The clean lines of the concealed gear cables is a plus and you can dial it up to 11 now

Littigator

I've got a vague idea i read somwhere that campag hoods are less user friendly for women due to the reach required to operate them and women (only on average) have shorter fingers than men...something like that anyway

always_tyred

jashburnham wrote:

You're getting a Viner aren't you? Viner's are Italian so you have to get Campagnolo. End of debate.

Good article on Campag gears here:

http://bicycleswest.com/page.cfm?pageID=431

That's helpful. :roll:

Main functional differences - shape of hoods, position of uppy and downy gear levers (LiT-speak).

All the three main manufacturers produce groups that (a) look okay (b) have 10+ gears at the back (c) shift flawlessly if set up correctly. Hence, none are "crap".

The rest is personal preference, but the pros manage to get used to one or the other when they switch teams.

Campag has a reputation for better aesthetics, but I think their latest shifters look odd. The rest of the stuff is lovely though. Shimano go for function over form, but seem to be catching up on gratuitous and unnecessary use of carbon fibre in parts of the groupset that really should not be made out of (expensive) plastic. Sram seems okay, but they are new to the game and I personally don't like the look of their stuff. My guess is that even in terms of how well it all works, Sram will improve a lot in the next couple of years and for that reason, even if it works well now, I'd hold fire on dropping a lot of money on their current stuff.

gtvlusso

jashburnham wrote:

You're getting a Viner aren't you? Viner's are Italian so you have to get Campagnolo. End of debate.

Good article on Campag gears here:

http://bicycleswest.com/page.cfm?pageID=431

If you get a top spec Viner, you will get Miche stuff on it too!!!! Really fecking good! I am jack's jealous streak!

gtvlusso

Personally - After riding an SRAM powered bike - I would definitely go for that shifting system - double tap is logical, easy and cool!! The bike I tested had SRAM Red - top spec!

always_tyred

whyamihere wrote:

biondino wrote:

Campag is all expensive style over substance, and every time you change gear it sounds like someone has just run a plough into your rear mech.

Except that it's cheaper than Shimano.

? No it isn't - its notoriously over priced! ?

I'd steer clear of Sunrace. The mechanism seems to be the one that is left available by every one else's patents and the up and down shift levers seem very close together and I imagine that they would be annoying to use wearing winter gloves, for example.

Also note that the latest Shimano shifters have cable routing under the bar tape like the other manufacturers'.

lost_in_thought

Now listen here, I said NO debating!

OK, ok, I know it's hard. But bear in mind that I have a plaster cast right now so if I kick you in the shins it will really hurt.

So I realise I should have been a tad more specific with which type of Shimano at least - are there different systems like what whyamihere describes with Campagnolo? I'd be looking at the high-end ones.

Thanks though! So, with the levers and buttons on either system, when you push them do they spring back to the middle?

Is it hard to shift the front mech with your thumb on the Campag system? I ride almost exclusively on the hoods, if that helps.

Is the campag button a lever or a button? i.e. are you pushing it into the hood or along?

Can you shift more than one sprocket with one push with both systems?

Are the concealed gear cables a problem for adjustment/servicing?

If you could stick to the simple terms, please, this is all completely new to me.

Thanks again!

gtvlusso

lost_in_thought wrote:

Now listen here, I said NO debating!

OK, ok, I know it's hard. But bear in mind that I have a plaster cast right now so if I kick you in the shins it will really hurt.

So I realise I should have been a tad more specific with which type of Shimano at least - are there different systems like what whyamihere describes with Campagnolo? I'd be looking at the high-end ones.

Thanks though! So, with the levers and buttons on either system, when you push them do they spring back to the middle?

Is it hard to shift the front mech with your thumb on the Campag system? I ride almost exclusively on the hoods, if that helps.


Is the campag button a lever or a button? i.e. are you pushing it into the hood or along?

Can you shift more than one sprocket with one push with both systems?

Are the concealed gear cables a problem for adjustment/servicing?

If you could stick to the simple terms, please, this is all completely new to me.

Thanks again!

I think only SRAM you can go up and down multi sprockets both ways.

Shimano: push the brake lever and innner lever for shifting - Brake lever to move to lower gears (harder) and inner to move to higher gears (easier). All returns to same position when shifted - spring loaded. Move up multiple sprockets, but down one at a time.

il_principe

lost_in_thought wrote:

Now listen here, I said NO debating!

OK, ok, I know it's hard. But bear in mind that I have a plaster cast right now so if I kick you in the shins it will really hurt.

So I realise I should have been a tad more specific with which type of Shimano at least - are there different systems like what whyamihere describes with Campagnolo? I'd be looking at the high-end ones.

Thanks though! So, with the levers and buttons on either system, when you push them do they spring back to the middle?

Is it hard to shift the front mech with your thumb on the Campag system? I ride almost exclusively on the hoods, if that helps.

Is the campag button a lever or a button? i.e. are you pushing it into the hood or along?

Can you shift more than one sprocket with one push with both systems?

Are the concealed gear cables a problem for adjustment/servicing?

If you could stick to the simple terms, please, this is all completely new to me.

Thanks again!

AlwaysTyred seems to have missed the point of my rather tongue in cheek post.

If you ride on the hoods then Campag would be better for you, the button is easily reached from hoods and drops. You can drop multiple cogs with one push. On both systems the levers/buttons spring back. Well perhaps not spring, but they return in a satisfyingly mechanical way.

Concealed cables don't really cause problems, and are much much tidier.

il_principe

Also ignore biondino comments about Campag being clunky. I run Shimano Ultegra on one bike and Campagnolo Chorus on the other. Honestly, Chorus is better, not by much but it is, shifts are crisper, brakes are better and I'm convinced the cables stretch less, plus Campag stuff is far more asthetically pleasing.

Any way this is all moot. Viner = Campag. Don't be a heretic.

Jen J

jashburnham wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

Now listen here, I said NO debating!

OK, ok, I know it's hard. But bear in mind that I have a plaster cast right now so if I kick you in the shins it will really hurt.

So I realise I should have been a tad more specific with which type of Shimano at least - are there different systems like what whyamihere describes with Campagnolo? I'd be looking at the high-end ones.

Thanks though! So, with the levers and buttons on either system, when you push them do they spring back to the middle?

Is it hard to shift the front mech with your thumb on the Campag system? I ride almost exclusively on the hoods, if that helps.

Is the campag button a lever or a button? i.e. are you pushing it into the hood or along?

Can you shift more than one sprocket with one push with both systems?

Are the concealed gear cables a problem for adjustment/servicing?

If you could stick to the simple terms, please, this is all completely new to me.

Thanks again!

AlwaysTyred seems to have missed the point of my rather tongue in cheek post.

If you ride on the hoods then Campag would be better for you, the button is easily reached from hoods and drops. You can drop multiple cogs with one push. On both systems the levers/buttons spring back. Well perhaps not spring, but they return in a satisfyingly mechanical way.

Concealed cables don't really cause problems, and are much much tidier.

See! I behaved!

And as for tongue in cheek, there's no room for that here, this is srs bsns...

whyamihere

Always Tyred wrote:

whyamihere wrote:

biondino wrote:

Campag is all expensive style over substance, and every time you change gear it sounds like someone has just run a plough into your rear mech.

Except that it's cheaper than Shimano.

? No it isn't - its notoriously over priced! ?

Price up a Veloce groupset against 105 (same component level) or Centaur against Ultegra. You'll see.

lost_in_thought

Littigator wrote:

I've got a vague idea i read somwhere that campag hoods are less user friendly for women due to the reach required to operate them and women (only on average) have shorter fingers than men...something like that anyway

Interesting... Now is there somewhere I can get numbers on this?

Due to unfortunate genetics I am 'blessed' with hands the size of shovels, size 8 in gloves, so I would be interested to know if my hands fit into the 'small' category.

Jen J

lost_in_thought wrote:

Littigator wrote:

I've got a vague idea i read somwhere that campag hoods are less user friendly for women due to the reach required to operate them and women (only on average) have shorter fingers than men...something like that anyway

Interesting... Now is there somewhere I can get numbers on this?

Due to unfortunate genetics I am 'blessed' with hands the size of shovels, size 8 in gloves, so I would be interested to know if my hands fit into the 'small' category.

I have found Campag hoods absolutely fine, but I too have huge hands...

biondino

jashburnham wrote:

.Viner = Campag. Don't be a heretic.

Alternatively, don't be a sheep

No. 1 thing, on balance - have a decent test ride on both systems - if they're both set up well they should both be perfectly functional, but you'll get a quick idea of which hood shape you find the most comfortable (for me Shimano is better x 1000000 in this area). This is probably the single most important and practical factor.

il_principe

whyamihere wrote:

Always Tyred wrote:

whyamihere wrote:

biondino wrote:

Campag is all expensive style over substance, and every time you change gear it sounds like someone has just run a plough into your rear mech.

Except that it's cheaper than Shimano.

? No it isn't - its notoriously over priced! ?

Price up a Veloce groupset against 105 (same component level) or Centaur against Ultegra. You'll see.

But that's cos Campag levels are a bit above/better than Shimano's!

biondino

When I joined bikeradar, Ultegra = Chorus and Dura-Ace = Record (and Campag was therefore the more expensive, using these criteria). What's changed?

whyamihere

biondino wrote:

jashburnham wrote:

.Viner = Campag. Don't be a heretic.

Alternatively, don't be a sheep

No. 1 thing, on balance - have a decent test ride on both systems - if they're both set up well they should both be perfectly functional, but you'll get a quick idea of which hood shape you find the most comfortable (for me Shimano is better x 1000000 in this area). This is probably the single most important and practical factor.

Agreed. Everything else pales into insignificance compared to comfort. Shimano crucify me (though I'm yet to try 7900, which looks better). 2nd gen Ergos are good (08 and previous), 3rd gen Ergos (09) are perfection in a shifter.

il_principe

biondino wrote:

When I joined bikeradar, Ultegra = Chorus and Dura-Ace = Record (and Campag was therefore the more expensive, using these criteria). What's changed?

Nope Chorus = Ultegra (cept a bit better). Record is in a category of its own.

whyamihere

biondino wrote:

When I joined bikeradar, Ultegra = Chorus and Dura-Ace = Record (and Campag was therefore the more expensive, using these criteria). What's changed?

Ultrashift's been brought back on Veloce (and so the entire range) instead of Escape. Can shift from 10th to 1st and back again in 4 shifts.

whyamihere

jashburnham wrote:

biondino wrote:

When I joined bikeradar, Ultegra = Chorus and Dura-Ace = Record (and Campag was therefore the more expensive, using these criteria). What's changed?

Nope Chorus = Ultegra (cept a bit better). Record is in a category of its own.

Chorus=DA mate. Record's the choice of God, and even God wishes for Super Record.

biondino

Well I guess if they finally managed to make a Campy mech that doesn't feel like someone dropped a parking metre into a wood chipper then maybe there is a place for Super Record.

Littigator

So LiT...once you've got your super dooper zippy bike.................

will you start wearing a helmet (hee hee)

ducks and runs for cover

il_principe

whyamihere wrote:

jashburnham wrote:

biondino wrote:

When I joined bikeradar, Ultegra = Chorus and Dura-Ace = Record (and Campag was therefore the more expensive, using these criteria). What's changed?

Nope Chorus = Ultegra (cept a bit better). Record is in a category of its own.

Chorus=DA mate. Record's the choice of God, and even God wishes for Super Record.

That's what I meant. Brain not working this arvo.

I pine for Super Record, but cannot justify it on any grounds. Perhaps when credit is less crunchy...