I just grassed a coach driver up

CiB

Always Tyred wrote:

If it isn't then, really, so the hell what if he loses his job? He'll be a burden on the tax payer but the roads will be marginally safer.

The roads won't be 'marginally safer', just because a bus driver is out of a job, replaced by another.

Always Tyred wrote:

I think there is a diminishingly small possibility that he's not an agressive sod day in day out.

No there isn't. We have no other evidence.

Always Tyred wrote:

Think about it - he got out of a bus, which he left blocking the road, presumably full of kids with the door open, to physically remonstrate with someone. That's orders of magnitude worse than winding down the window and telling someone to p!ss off.

You're making alot of assumptions there though - he wasn't blocking the road, the cyclist was, ahead of him. We don't know that he left his door open. Bus drivers tend to get in through their own door, not the same access to the rest of the bus. We don't know if he locked his door and took the keys with him, but so what? He's in a busy street 200 yards from the school. What's going to happen? A Paedo might jump in and think all birthdays have come at once, but that's unlikely.

Always Tyred wrote:

It wasn't a momentary fit of pique, it was a sustained total loss of control. How figgin' angry do YOU have to be to stop your car in the middle of the road, get out and start having a go at someone?

He got out of a bus that couldn't go anywhere, and was involved in a short disagreement. Same event, different interpretation.

Always Tyred wrote:

In principle I have ZERO sympathy for the bus driver, none at all. I do feel sympathy for his wife though.

I have sympathy for his wife, kids & the bloke himself who's doing his job and gets caught up in an argument.

Underneath it all is this view that a self-selecting set of people on a forum like this will naturally side with the cyclists' view. But sometimes it goes overboard, like the guy who got mixed up with a dog on the pathway the other day, an dother examples I've seen on here. I'm a cyclist, but being one doesn't mean that we all have to presume cyclists can never be in the wrong.

spen666

linsen wrote:

... adn I'm now feeling a bit guilty, but I'm sure I shouldn't.

He was driving a coach full of children down a school run road with cars parked either side, 200 yards from the school. As I approached the scene there was a cyclist stopped in front of him, refusing to move. He got out of the coach, got into the cyclists personal space and was uttering words to the effect of

"kind sir would you be so gracious as to move out of my way so I can progress my vehicle along the thoroughfare" (or similar).

He had been beeping at the bike to get out of the way, you see. Bike was taking up safe and justified amount of the road.

I approached and said "with the greatest respect, there wasn't room for you to get by, so you should have waited" (I actually was that poilte). He grabbed me by the arm (not roughly though), and said something I didn't listen to. I was too busy requesting he didn't touch me....

Anyway, we took a photo of the number plate and I rang the company he drives for. I told them I was most concerned about someone with aggressive tendencies driving children around, when he clearly has a distorted view of safe driving.

The man at the end of the phone told me to take it as far as I wanted.....

You have been assaulted- report this to the police. Also report it to the traffic commissioners as he clearly is aviolent man who should not be working with children

CiB

spen666 wrote:

You have been assaulted- report this to the police. Also report it to the traffic commissioners as he clearly is aviolent man who should not be working with children

It's sad that having an arm held is now 'common assault', something that can lead to arrest, prosecution and a criminal conviction. It's a shame too that some FM's here are so keen to be dismayed at another's goings on that they would see a man be sacked and given a conviction for what was nothing more than a bit of a disagreement.

This country is going down the pan. Assault is physical violence, not being touched on the arm. Binge drinking used to mean a whole weekend on the razz, now it's half a bottle of a decent red, poverty used to be ... drones on similar vein...

I've said my bit.

spen666

ChrisInBicester wrote:

spen666 wrote:

You have been assaulted- report this to the police. Also report it to the traffic commissioners as he clearly is aviolent man who should not be working with children

It's sad that having an arm held is now 'common assault', something that can lead to arrest, prosecution and a criminal conviction. It's a shame too that some FM's here are so keen to be dismayed at another's goings on that they would see a man be sacked and given a conviction for what was nothing more than a bit of a disagreement.

This country is going down the pan. Assault is physical violence, not being touched on the arm. Binge drinking used to mean a whole weekend on the razz, now it's half a bottle of a decent red, poverty used to be ... drones on similar vein...

I've said my bit.

It has always been an assault - its nothing new at all. The merest touching of someone is a battery


You are seemingly missing the elephant in the room. Here we have a man driving a huge vehicle carrying children, in such a manner as to be causing danger and distress to lawful road users.
He sees fit to leave his vehicle and assault those who he perceives as slowing him down-despite them using the road lawfully.

He is a danger to other road users

He is a danger to the children he is transporting

He is a violent man who apparently is happy to use physical force against anyone who doesn't do as he wants

Big Red S

Reading that post, it's blindingly obvious that you're a lawyer.

That's not a good thing.

spen666 wrote:

He sees fit to leave his vehicle and assault those who he perceives as slowing him down-despite them using the road lawfully.

Those who /are/ slowing him down.
Do we know they were using the road lawfully?

He is a danger to the children he is transporting

How?

He is a violent man who apparently is happy to use physical force against anyone who doesn't do as he wants

He is a man who apparently has used some physical force against someone who did as he didn't want.
There's rather a substantial difference between your sentence and mine.

Clever Pun

ChrisInBicester wrote:

My stance is that having a bloke sacked - especially now - is not a fair and reasonable response to what happened.

<snip>

Remember this is just opinions from a pro-cycling forum, he wont get sacked, the police will take note and give lip service (if they are contacted which I doubt)

The worst that'll happen is that he gets a verbal warning imo which is fine as he'll then hopefully treat more vulnerable road users with more respect and care. if he doesn't and more complaints are leveled against him he's only himself to blame for the consequences of his actions

snooks

ChrisInBicester wrote:

My stance is that having a bloke sacked - especially now - is not a fair and reasonable response to what happened. [snip]

So the driver gets off to challenge the cyclist who is - apparently, but this might be my interpretation of the events - causing a delay by stopping in front of the bus. And then a 3rd party joins in and has her (his?) arm held, which is what I would see as 'grabbed, but not roughly'.

I see what you are saying...but think about it this way.....would the driver have grabbed (whatever the grip) Linsen's arm if she were a he, and in fact a 6ft 8 rugby player who was built like a brick out house???

No? so why should he be "allowed" to do it to a lady on a bike?

The bus driver can't just go around man-handling anyone they think is smaller/weaker than them where would it stop?

The point is, the bus driver was out of order, and what if one of the children on the bus disagreed with his point of view...would he "grab" them as well? Would you be happy if it was your daughter he grabbed? and how would you feel if he had done this to a member of the public and no action was taken?

We aren't the ones to decide the punishment, but if his manager thinks the sack is the only way forward then so be it...he might have done this sort of thing before.

Just being devils advocate here

Colzer1

I agree with Snooks on this one

biondino

God know what the cyclist was doing stopping and refusing to move. Yes the coach driver shouldn't have been beeping him but in this instance it wasn't wise or necessary to prevent a coachload of kids getting to school just to make a point. The driver himself is indicating through his lack of patience and road sense that maybe he's not the best driver for a coach full of kids.

However, once the coach driver lost his rag - and you don't manhandle members of the public unless you're angry or stressed - he's committed a more serious and less justifiable offence. And if he's so easily angered then a busload of noisy and irrtating children might not be the ideal place for him to be deployed, so informing his supervisors strikes me as wise and correct.

always_tyred

Look, the problem here is not touching someone's arm, okay, its stopping a bus, getting out and threatening people. In this instance he did not run into the bicycle, hit anyone or, to the layman, commit assault.

But if a cyclist stopping to look around and non verbally communicating "sod off honking your horn you ignorant berk" causes someone to lose their head, what will they do next time?

What the hell is the problem with giving the guy a dose of his own medicine - fear? The police have better things to do, okay, but if the guy cyclist who stopped wants to report the matter so that the driver gets a call and feels the chill of unempoyment go down his spine, then good.

If either cyclist wants to call the bus company in their professional capacity and express concern such that the driver's boss has words about potential loss of lucrative contract, good.

Both are proportionate and, compared to the bus driver, very measured indeed.

rhext

I think the matter should be followed through. Linsen, I infer that you thought his behaviour was out of order but not violent and that you consider sacking would be over the top. I would simply say that when/if you complain.

The thing it, it's either a one-off or it's not. If it's a one-off I suspect he'll get no more than a talking to. If it's not and there is 'previous' to take into account then he'll probably get harsher treatement than otherwise.

For me, the most worrying aspect of this is actually the implication that the incident stemmed from the driver being upset at not being able to overtake in a situation where overtaking is possibly not appropriate. We have a variety of operators in my area, and I strongly suspect that some operators train their drivers in how to avoid squashing cyclists and some do not. I suspect this because some drivers will hang back until it's safe, while others will just pile past with inches to spare - but the ones who pile past are always from one operator.

Going into writing should force the operator to do something about it. In fact, come to think of it I might write a letter of my own!

chuckcork

TBH i rang up a bus company a while ago to complain about one of their drivers, who was letting passengers down in the middle of the road, though next to a bus stop, which happened to have a cycle path running right past it.

The bus had the school run bus number on it, I think a version of the 281 route, which goes up to teddington. On a wet road and not expecting to have passengers exiting where they shouldn't be (i.e. not outside of a school and 10ft out from a stop!) I came pretty damned close to running into some of them.

The reaction of the bus company to my complaint that one of their big red buses was being operated in a dangerous manner? Not one of our drivers. Call the school.

Not impressed at all by this lie but London United just didn't want to know about it.

On the other hand I have rung up bus companies before and received the rather more positive result of the driver involved being cautioned. Whether that ever actually occured.... :?:

always_tyred

biondino wrote:

God know what the cyclist was doing stopping and refusing to move.

I am assuming he didn't lie down in the road and start singing "we shall overcome" or anything like that.

I undertstood the scenario to be a cyclist being followed down a road with parked cars on both sides, being beeped out of the way by a bus. Depending on how persistent the bus was being, its understandable to assert yourself by stopping to scowl. Indeed it may have actually been necessary. It can be helpful to make eye contact and give the palm down symbol to tell a driver to chill out.

Its no worse than the getting in front of someone parked in the ASL thing that we all agreed on.

I confess - I get quite aggitated about this sort of thing. I have been deliberately driven into by a car, a bus (would have been two busses but for my brakes) and I've had countless more near misses from people in a strop who wouldn't have stopped to see if I was okay had they managed to hit me. Last week someone did actually get out of their car, having forced me into a side road by cutting across my wheel, having not finished overtaking me in my cycle lane, and try to punch me. Some other local neds videoed me fending this bloke off with my bike. Its probably on youtube. I would have cycled off, but in the time between selecting the correct gear and clipping in I'd have been down and the video would have been even more popular.

You might think I must be asking for it, but in each case this, and countless more near misses, happened simply because I was on the road and "in the way".

I am not in the bloody way. I'm just fcuking sick of angry little men with a spiteful sense of entitlement.

tailwindhome

spen666 wrote:

linsen wrote:

... adn I'm now feeling a bit guilty, but I'm sure I shouldn't.

He was driving a coach full of children down a school run road with cars parked either side, 200 yards from the school. As I approached the scene there was a cyclist stopped in front of him, refusing to move. He got out of the coach, got into the cyclists personal space and was uttering words to the effect of

"kind sir would you be so gracious as to move out of my way so I can progress my vehicle along the thoroughfare" (or similar).

He had been beeping at the bike to get out of the way, you see. Bike was taking up safe and justified amount of the road.

I approached and said "with the greatest respect, there wasn't room for you to get by, so you should have waited" (I actually was that poilte). He grabbed me by the arm (not roughly though), and said something I didn't listen to. I was too busy requesting he didn't touch me....

Anyway, we took a photo of the number plate and I rang the company he drives for. I told them I was most concerned about someone with aggressive tendencies driving children around, when he clearly has a distorted view of safe driving.

The man at the end of the phone told me to take it as far as I wanted.....

You have been assaulted- report this to the police. Also report it to the traffic commissioners as he clearly is aviolent man who should not be working with children

"a violent man who should not be working with children"


Is it just me, or is this thread beginning to have a "Brass Eye" type feel to it


Linsen - I think you are the best judge of wether or not you were assaulted, forget the legal definition

If you feel you were assaulted I would follow up with a letter to the owner/MD - in my experience that is the only way to complain effectively

If not I would let it slide.

Having said that I don't understand this bit "there was a cyclist stopped in front of him, refusing to move" - can you clarify?

ChrisLS

...if I had been confronted by a school bus travelling along a road with parked cars either side I would have got off my bike and let the driver through...

Big Red S

That, though, would be using the road courteously. Can't have drivers getting used to cyclists doing that, can we?

CyclingBantam

Always Tyred wrote:

, like the guy who got mixed up with a dog on the pathway the other day

:shock: Am I on the right forum?

always_tyred

ChrisLS wrote:

...if I had been confronted by a school bus travelling along a road with parked cars either side I would have got off my bike and let the driver through...

Yes, I think that we should all stop and pull over for any following vehicles to pass. Brilliant.

always_tyred

BenBlyth wrote:

Always Tyred wrote:

, like the guy who got mixed up with a dog on the pathway the other day

:shock: Am I on the right forum?

I didn't write that. It was someone else's analogy to suggest that this road rage scenario was equivalent to a shared use cycle path incident. Besides, they seem to have mis-read that the pro-cycling forum was generally critical of the cyclist in that instance, thereby shooting down their entire "road rage is okay" argument.

downfader

You know, I started reading this but ChrisInBicester seems to have taken over.

Linsen, think about this logically, ignore what others have said here as I think you already know what you want to do. You have several options, all justified imo, and it is down to whether you think it will make a difference. Do not feel guilty - a situation happened that you could not control or expect (this I learned after my accident). The driver has put himself into a position that he shouldnt have, and if he had an issue with the original cyclist could always have radio'd in for the police to attend.

If you feel the letter option will work then perhaps mentioning in it that some might have contacted the police as this will draw out the seriousness of the situation.

I have reported bus drivers in the past but never had any joy from it, not even a whiff of "we'll have a chat with them".

ChrisLS

... I didn't say any passing vehicle I just said I would have pulled over in this case and given the guy a break...it's called being polite... :roll:

il_principe

Always Tyred wrote:

ChrisLS wrote:

...if I had been confronted by a school bus travelling along a road with parked cars either side I would have got off my bike and let the driver through...

Yes, I think that we should all stop and pull over for any following vehicles to pass. Brilliant.

+1 What an odd thing to say. You've got as much right as a bus to be on the road, no need to pander to motorists misconceptions!

downfader

ChrisLS wrote:

... I didn't say any passing vehicle I just said I would have pulled over in this case and given the guy a break...it's called being polite... :roll:

I have done that in the past, but it always depends on if there is actually somewhere to pull to, which more often than not there isnt around here. Also depends on the traffic too, as you know that once you pull over the vehicles behind probably wont let you rejoin the flow.

always_tyred

ChrisLS wrote:

... I didn't say any passing vehicle I just said I would have pulled over in this case and given the guy a break...it's called being polite... :roll:

Is honking your horn to bully someone to stop and let you past "polite"? How come other vehicles aren't subject to this?

ChrisLS

...I think you may all be BMW/Audi drivers in disguise... :?

Big Red S

jashburnham wrote:

Always Tyred wrote:

ChrisLS wrote:

...if I had been confronted by a school bus travelling along a road with parked cars either side I would have got off my bike and let the driver through...

Yes, I think that we should all stop and pull over for any following vehicles to pass. Brilliant.

+1 What an odd thing to say. You've got as much right as a bus to be on the road, no need to pander to motorists misconceptions!

And surely that bus has as much right as you to be travelling at its normal speed?

If you're going along a road slower than most traffic would be, and so have some vehicles behind you that are going slowly because they can't overtake, are you seriously suggesting pulling over to let them pass is a bad idea as it will only pander their misconceptions?

Those wouldn't be the misconceptions about cyclists getting in the way, would they?

Big Red S

Always Tyred wrote:

ChrisLS wrote:

... I didn't say any passing vehicle I just said I would have pulled over in this case and given the guy a break...it's called being polite... :roll:

Is honking your horn to bully someone to stop and let you past "polite"? How come other vehicles aren't subject to this?

Probably because cyclists are the most populous road user who is regularly going substantially slower than most other vehicles.

il_principe

Big Red S wrote:

jashburnham wrote:

Always Tyred wrote:

ChrisLS wrote:

...if I had been confronted by a school bus travelling along a road with parked cars either side I would have got off my bike and let the driver through...

Yes, I think that we should all stop and pull over for any following vehicles to pass. Brilliant.

+1 What an odd thing to say. You've got as much right as a bus to be on the road, no need to pander to motorists misconceptions!

And surely that bus has as much right as you to be travelling at its normal speed?

If you're going along a road slower than most traffic would be, and so have some vehicles behind you that are going slowly because they can't overtake, are you seriously suggesting pulling over to let them pass is a bad idea as it will only pander their misconceptions?

Those wouldn't be the misconceptions about cyclists getting in the way, would they?

Yes I am. if they've been honking at me I certainly wouldn't move. If there was space then I'd tuck in, but I seriously doubt I'd actually get off my bike and wait for the traffic to pass. Anyway the OP mentioned the road was lined with cars - nowhere to pull in and why should they have to.

And no they'd be misconceptions about cyclists not having the right to be on the road.

Jen J

Big Red S wrote:

And surely that bus has as much right as you to be travelling at its normal speed?

I wasn't aware buses had a 'normal' speed, much less a 'right' to travel at that? What about roadworks then? Or traffic jams? Or anything else that may make travelling at the speed limit impossible? Are they all infringing buses' rights?

the_hundredth_idiot

Always Tyred wrote:

biondino wrote:

God know what the cyclist was doing stopping and refusing to move.

I undertstood the scenario to be a cyclist being followed down a road with parked cars on both sides, being beeped out of the way by a bus. Depending on how persistent the bus was being, its understandable to assert yourself by stopping to scowl. Indeed it may have actually been necessary. It can be helpful to make eye contact and give the palm down symbol to tell a driver to chill out.

I confess, I read the OP's original post and took it as the cyclist was heading towards the bus. In that case, I'd have little sympathy for the cyclist who might have just been an awkward tw4t - it's a lot easier for a bike to get out of the way of a bus than for the opposite.

But your reading of it would, I agree, put a different spin on things. If the road was that narrow, just how fast was the bus driver trying to go?

OP - over to you!