What sort of power out put is needed.

Infamous

sit ups are a waste of time. you can't spot train (ie, you can't do sit ups and expect to lose belly fat) and they are not hard enough to build muscle.

You've only been at it for 10 weeks, don't expect miracles. In 6 months to a year you might start looking how you want.

fuzzynavel

Infamous wrote:

sit ups are a waste of time. you can't spot train (ie, you can't do sit ups and expect to lose belly fat) and they are not hard enough to build muscle.

You've only been at it for 10 weeks, don't expect miracles. In 6 months to a year you might start looking how you want.

Infamous,

The reason for the stomach excercises is nothing to do with trying to lose tummy flab, but you weren't to know that!! I have a long standing back problem (5 years +). There is swelling in the sacro illiac area of my back (triangular bit above the tail bone) due to arthritis. The physio has put some of the aggrivation of the area down to weakness of the surrounding muscles and consequentially I have lower core exercises to do. She appears to have been right as the pain in my back has drastically lessened since I started her program and I don't need a constant supply of Ibuprofen just to get through my day any more.

I know 10 weeks is a short time to be training and expecting results....it took me about a year last time to shift all this weight....I was down to 14 stone (Currently 16 stone down from 17st) just running 50k a week then the arthritis happened ( toes and knees swelled up)and the weight piled back on with a vengeance. I can't run any more.

I have a history of being pretty fit so hopefully my body should be able to get back to a decent level quite quickly....That's what I am hoping anyway!

Off to the gym for another session today after the F1 grandprix..... Wifey is a bit pissed at me for going to the gym so often...

Infamous

sit ups are still rubbish!

fuzzynavel

Infamous wrote:

sit ups are still rubbish!

LOL

Rubbish for fat loss...good for core strength!
You also have the added benefit of extra fat/energy usage with bigger, fitter muscles.

Infamous

Sit ups are too easy, if you can do more than 12 of any exercise, then it becomes stamina building, rather than strength building (imo). You need to add a lot more resistance to them in order for them to really work.... saying that, stamina can be useful in that area.

Lifting heavy weights over your head (military press for example) strengthens the area well, or those gym machines that add resistance to crunches can be good.

Or if it's working for you then stick with it.

fuzzynavel

Infamous wrote:

Sit ups are too easy, if you can do more than 12 of any exercise, then it becomes stamina building, rather than strength building (imo). You need to add a lot more resistance to them in order for them to really work.... saying that, stamina can be useful in that area.

Lifting heavy weights over your head (military press for example) strengthens the area well, or those gym machines that add resistance to crunches can be good.

Or if it's working for you then stick with it.

I like the machines in the gym for the abs but I find my legs get more tired than my abs...I tend to use my hip flexors too much.

fuzzynavel

fuzzynavel wrote:

Infamous wrote:

Sit ups are too easy, if you can do more than 12 of any exercise, then it becomes stamina building, rather than strength building (imo). You need to add a lot more resistance to them in order for them to really work.... saying that, stamina can be useful in that area.

Lifting heavy weights over your head (military press for example) strengthens the area well, or those gym machines that add resistance to crunches can be good.

Or if it's working for you then stick with it.

I like the machines in the gym for the abs but I find my legs get more tired than my abs...I tend to use my hip flexors too much.

I was ill yesterday and didn't eat too well....bonus is that I have lost 2lbs in one day with no exercise!! I will carb load during the day for my 60 minute slog tonight.
Please don't try this at home as I didn't do it on purpose....starving yourself is not a safe way to lose weight!!
Only need to lose another 3lbs in the next week and a half to hit my bi-weekly target (4 lbs every 2 weeks)

I have also joined the wattage group on google and can now understand the scepticism regarding my wattages. 335 watt average over the hour seems high compared to a lot of more dedicated people who have splurged the cash for a proper power meter.
I have tried several different bikes in the gym to try to see if there is any variation but they all read around the same. I may go to a bike shop and fake some interest in a turbo trainer of some sort and see if they will let me have a go to see what 300 watts really feels like!

idaviesmoore

fuzzynavel wrote:

[ I may go to a bike shop and fake some interest in a turbo trainer of some sort and see if they will let me have a go to see what 300 watts really feels like!

That won't be pleasant

fuzzynavel

idaviesmoore wrote:

fuzzynavel wrote:

[ I may go to a bike shop and fake some interest in a turbo trainer of some sort and see if they will let me have a go to see what 300 watts really feels like!

That won't be pleasant

What won't be pleasant....abusing the good nature of the bike shop or pushing 300watts?

hopefully the bikes that I have been riding are reasonably accurate and 300 watts shouldn't be too much trouble.

Infamous

Do you own a bike fuzz?

fuzzynavel

Infamous wrote:

Do you own a bike fuzz?

yes but broken....MTB has knackered bottom crank....crunched it up hills too often...need to find a sealed bottom bracket to fit a bottom bracket that wasn't of the sealed variety when bought. Can't find one to fit....but can't say I have looked too hard.
Decided to just put the money towards a new bike..
The SCR 1.5 dropping into my price range is a godsend as I was going to buy a SCR3. I am just waiting for finance (Interest free CC) to come through the post. I just hope there are some SCR 1.5's around next week when I try to buy one.

Had some bad news last night....I talked to a roadie at the gym and he reckons that the machines could be out by as much as 20% when reading wattage. That puts me down to 280 watts average over the hour!!

An upside is that I hit a new highest sustainable wattage according to the bike last night..
12 weeks ago I couldn't get the bike to read 374 (corrected to about 300watts (20%)) watts when standing up pushing hard....now I can sustain at that level for a reasonable amount of time....

I have come to the comclusion that the wattages on the bikes are only useful when competing against myself. as long as they stay out by the same margin all the time!

Alex_Simmons/RST

fuzzynavel wrote:

I have come to the comclusion that the wattages on the bikes are only useful when competing against myself. as long as they stay out by the same margin all the time!

That is a valid conclusion.

One of the essential elements of any power meter is the ability to check its calibration. If it doesn't enable that, then I wouldn't recommend it. That's where ergomos, polars and ibikes fall down. The only way to check their calibration is against another power meter.

fuzzynavel

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

fuzzynavel wrote:

I have come to the comclusion that the wattages on the bikes are only useful when competing against myself. as long as they stay out by the same margin all the time!

That is a valid conclusion.

One of the essential elements of any power meter is the ability to check its calibration. If it doesn't enable that, then I wouldn't recommend it. That's where ergomos, polars and ibikes fall down. The only way to check their calibration is against another power meter.

Presuming I had a bike...what would be the cheapest way to measure power?? get some sort of TACX turbo device? or is there another way?

Infamous

When you get your bike, ride a 10m TT and see what time you get, it will mean much more than a wattage number. Especially when comparing with other people.

Let's face it, if you don't have a power meter on your bike then you don't need to know what power you are putting out.

Alex_Simmons/RST

Infamous wrote:

When you get your bike, ride a 10m TT and see what time you get, it will mean much more than a wattage number. Especially when comparing with other people.

Let's face it, if you don't have a power meter on your bike then you don't need to know what power you are putting out.

And if the time keeper doesn't start his watch, you don't need to know what time you rode.

Infamous

What I meant is, knowing your power figures is pointless if you can't put them into your training. ie, you need a power meter on your bike in order to know that you are training @ x watts.

Going into a shop and sitting on a turbo to find out what power you produce is pointless, imo.

fuzzynavel

Infamous wrote:

What I meant is, knowing your power figures is pointless if you can't put them into your training. ie, you need a power meter on your bike in order to know that you are training @ x watts.

Going into a shop and sitting on a turbo to find out what power you produce is pointless, imo.

I like using the power figure at the gym. I can see when I am improving and when I am having a bad day. From what I have read (and I have done a lot of reading recently), wattage is more reliable than perceived exertion and HR ever were.

The wattages on the gym bikes appear to be bad, but at least they are consistently bad....when I feel I am having a good day my wattage goes up....when I feel I am having a bad day my wattage doesn't perform so well.

As far as using wattage in training goes, I am using it. I am exclusively in the gym until I get a bike.

I would love to get a power meter for my bike but they are pretty expensive at the moment for a decent reliable one. I have seen 50% improvement in the last 12 weeks with wattages and this seems to work for me.

Infamous

Get a bike first :P

Cougar

fuzzynavel wrote:

Infamous wrote:

What I meant is, knowing your power figures is pointless if you can't put them into your training. ie, you need a power meter on your bike in order to know that you are training @ x watts.

Going into a shop and sitting on a turbo to find out what power you produce is pointless, imo.

I like using the power figure at the gym. I can see when I am improving and when I am having a bad day. From what I have read (and I have done a lot of reading recently), wattage is more reliable than perceived exertion and HR ever were.

The wattages on the gym bikes appear to be bad, but at least they are consistently bad....when I feel I am having a good day my wattage goes up....when I feel I am having a bad day my wattage doesn't perform so well.
As far as using wattage in training goes, I am using it. I am exclusively in the gym until I get a bike.

I would love to get a power meter for my bike but they are pretty expensive at the moment for a decent reliable one. I have seen 50% improvement in the last 12 weeks with wattages and this seems to work for me.

There you go then. Feel and PE work just as well.

fuzzynavel

Cougar wrote:

There you go then. Feel and PE work just as well.

I guess I proved a point and contradicted myself in the space of a couple of sentences....Well spotted Cougar :evil:

One thing that wattage can do it to quantify how good or bad you are doing...I tend to only have a couple of different levels of feeling. "excellent", "good", "ok", "tired", "want to go home" and "why did I get up this morning". An excellent feeling one day may only be an ok feeling another day.
Another thing about wattages is that they allow me to set goals I could say to myself that I am not going to let the display drop below 300 watts on my ride....but I can't go to the gym and say I am going to make sure I am constantly tired. I hope I have got my point across and not just mindlessly rambled!

fuzzynavel

I am now the proud owner of a nice shiny new SCR 1.5....will go back into the hills and see if my training in the gym has been helpful....once I receive it and buy pedals that is!

fuzzynavel

Still doing the gym thing...Nearly killed myself on Monday night doing intervals in the gym.

30 seconds all out sprinting (standing up) at 85rpm on the highest resistance that the bike would allow followed by 30 seconds rest (slow pedalling hard resistance).....rinsed and repeated for 15 minutes....I think I could class this as somewhere between L6 and L7....couldn't speak....could barely get enough breath...heart rate 188bpm which is close to max for me 220-29 = 191....lungs and legs were burning...couldn't see for the river of sweat in my eyes!

I then slowed down and did L4 intervals 30 on, 30 off for 10 minutes...heart rate kept at a more acceptable 140 -160ish

Then went back for another 30 on, 30 off eyeballs out 10 minutes at L6/L7....I couldn't manage the whole exercise so I think I have the balance about right.. then cooled down with a nice leisurely 90rpm at 200 watts for 15 minutes..

I then went and did some light weights on my legs and core....repetitions more than anything else..

Anybody have any ideas how I can amend my routine or should I leave it as it is..? I want to keep my body guessing about what is going to hit it next.

idaviesmoore

fuzzynavel wrote:

Anybody have any ideas how I can amend my routine or should I leave it as it is..? I want to keep my body guessing about what is going to hit it next.

Forgive me, FuzzyN but the ammendment I would make would be to make sure you're not overtraining. You strike me a person who likes battering themselves and is not shy of hard work.

I think you should plan it a bit better than you are doing.

Someone said to me once 'You need to learn to run slow before you learn to run fast.' It's something that always stuck in my mind (mind you I'm still not fast-I am slow, though ) and has helped me avoid injury and to enjoy my training and competing.

Be careful of hard training all the time. Plan your training/rest schedule. This way you will be more likely to keep it up without injury or illness

Alex_Simmons/RST

fuzzynavel wrote:

30 seconds all out sprinting (standing up) at 85rpm on the highest resistance that the bike would allow followed by 30 seconds rest (slow pedalling hard resistance).....rinsed and repeated for 15 minutes....I think I could class this as somewhere between L6 and L7....

While it might have seemed to be an L6-7 workout, if you were truly taxing your anaerobic work capacity, then sustaining that sort of high L6 power in 30-sec on/off bursts usually does people in after 4, maybe 6 efforts if they are lucky. Power will then drop accordingly.

If power doesn't fall after the initial efforts, then they probably weren't hard enough to be considered high end L6 work. Nothing wrong with that of course. It would have ended up as a hard aerobic workout (with a neuromuscular twist).

For me, L6 work is more like the go hard and see stars in your tunnel vision eyes and want to vomit variety of work out but there are a number of ways of doing it where it is a little more controlled.

fuzzynavel

idaviesmoore wrote:

fuzzynavel wrote:

Anybody have any ideas how I can amend my routine or should I leave it as it is..? I want to keep my body guessing about what is going to hit it next.

Forgive me, FuzzyN but the ammendment I would make would be to make sure you're not overtraining. You strike me a person who likes battering themselves and is not shy of hard work.

I don't think overtraining is going to be a problem. I have trained every second night for the last 14-16 weeks and have never felt sore the next day up to this point....these intervals that I mentioned above had me a little stiff in the morning but that went away within half an hour.
I don't like exercising if I don't feel that I am getting benefit which means that I push quite hard some times.

fuzzynavel

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

fuzzynavel wrote:

30 seconds all out sprinting (standing up) at 85rpm on the highest resistance that the bike would allow followed by 30 seconds rest (slow pedalling hard resistance).....rinsed and repeated for 15 minutes....I think I could class this as somewhere between L6 and L7....

While it might have seemed to be an L6-7 workout, if you were truly taxing your anaerobic work capacity, then sustaining that sort of high L6 power in 30-sec on/off bursts usually does people in after 4, maybe 6 efforts if they are lucky. Power will then drop accordingly.

If power doesn't fall after the initial efforts, then they probably weren't hard enough to be considered high end L6 work. Nothing wrong with that of course. It would have ended up as a hard aerobic workout (with a neuromuscular twist).

For me, L6 work is more like the go hard and see stars in your tunnel vision eyes and want to vomit variety of work out but there are a number of ways of doing it where it is a little more controlled.

Ok....I've not seen the actual definition of L6 stating that it is anaerobic....that makes some sense now. The definition that I found basically said it was a short sharp effort but had no mention of the biochemistry behind it.
I have a chemistry degree and have done a lot of Biology and biochem as part of it so I have a decent understanding of the pathways used.
I guess I wil have to keep up with my high L5 workouts then.
I don't have the confidence to push into L6/L7 workouts according to your definition. I had asthma as a child but managed to conquer that...but there is still a niggling feeling that it will show up again if I go anaerobic!

Infamous

fuzzynavel wrote:

...these intervals that I mentioned above had me a little stiff in the morning but that went away within half an hour.

I think you are enjoying these intervals a little too much.

fuzzynavel

Infamous wrote:

fuzzynavel wrote:

...these intervals that I mentioned above had me a little stiff in the morning but that went away within half an hour.

I think you are enjoying these intervals a little too much.

The strange thing is that I actually thought exactly the same thing as you but thought "Nobody will lower the conversation in that way on here!"..

good thing that I didn't say that I got rid of the stiffness in the shower....who knows what would have been said.:) :oops:

Alex_Simmons/RST

fuzzynavel wrote:

Ok....I've not seen the actual definition of L6 stating that it is anaerobic....that makes some sense now. The definition that I found basically said it was a short sharp effort but had no mention of the biochemistry behind it.
I have a chemistry degree and have done a lot of Biology and biochem as part of it so I have a decent understanding of the pathways used.
I guess I wil have to keep up with my high L5 workouts then.
I don't have the confidence to push into L6/L7 workouts according to your definition. I had asthma as a child but managed to conquer that...but there is still a niggling feeling that it will show up again if I go anaerobic!

Well the intensity and length of effort is what determines the percentage of contributions from aerobic and anaerobic energy production. When doing L6 workouts (which is quite a large power band) you will use a combination of both. As you would know, our body doesn't magically turn one off and the other on, it is all a contiuum and the time course for each to cut into action differs too.

So if going into severe oxygen debt is likely to set off an asthmatic reaction for you, then yes, some caution is advised.

Our anaerobic ability can be trained, both in terms of the amount of power we can generate and the duration which we can sustain it. This is what we know as our Anaerobic Work Capacity.

It is best defined as Maximal Accumulated Oxygen Deficit (MAOD) and measured in a lab, but it can be quite well approximated by investigating a power meter file from a well paced maximal pursuit like effort of ~ 3.5 - 5 minutes.

Here's an item on just that I wrote in February last year:
http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/2007/02/ ... rsuit.html

fuzzynavel

Ok...update....have pretty much stopped the gym now after getting my SCR 1.5 on Thursday....went for a ride on Thursday night....only a couple of miles around the block a few times....was wobbly as hell and not sure of the racing position compared to my old MTB....
Went out again yesterday for my old route and knocked a whole 6 minutes off my 15 mile time even though |I was a bit wobbly....looking forward to getting more off my PB next time out....

Went a bit impulsive with my new ride sitting in the hall instead of the shed and went for a ride today.....was only intending doing 15-20 miles but I was feeling good and ended up doing 50 miles.....My legs have never been so dead by the time I got home.....did the 25 out in 1 hour 13 and the 25 back in 1 hour 30....This is the furthest that I have ever ridden and am so glad that I bought this bike...The only problems relate to needing a new pair of shorts......bit of chafing downstairs....
In case anyone cares...I rode from West Edinburgh to Gullane and back.....was only intending doing Portobello and home!!