What sort of power out put is needed.

fuzzynavel

Hi all.....

Was just wondering what sort of power output would be required on average to be competitive in a sportive event?

Currently I can push 300 Watts average over an hour at 50rpm....can only do about 270 watts if I lift the cadence....

My max output at the end of 60 minutes is around 574 Watts but only for 10 seconds or so for the sprint..... I am a bit of a fat bloater (100Kg and 5`11") so that works out as an average of 3ish watts per kilo for the hour.

I don't intend to enter anything until next spring and hope to lose a couple of stone before then (lost 1 stone in 8 weeks already)....

would I be able to stay with the pack??

redddraggon

fuzzynavel wrote:

Currently I can push 300 Watts average over an hour at 50rpm....can only do about 270 watts if I lift the cadence....

50rpm is really low.....

fuzzynavel wrote:

Was just wondering what sort of power output would be required on average to be competitive in a sportive event?

Sportives are not races...

idaviesmoore

fuzzynavel wrote:

would I be able to stay with the pack??

Depends how fast the pack was moving. If you get my drift

nasahapley

Hi fuzzynavel,

I reckon you'll be absolutely fine, especially as there'll almost certainly be lots of 'packs' going at widely different paces. I'm not sure I could knock out 300 watts for an hour but I managed the Fred Whitton earlier this year in an ok-ish time. Bear in mind that a sportive will likely be five or six hours plus at varying levels of intensity, so if need be get the miles in over winter (and don't shy away from hills!).

I don't know anything about your physiology but 50rpm is pretty low; have you done long rides at this cadence? I would have thought you'd be better off practicing at a higher cadence even if you do lose a bit of power to start off with.

Have you got a particular event in mind?

Alex_Simmons/RST

fuzzynavel wrote:

Hi all.....

Was just wondering what sort of power output would be required on average to be competitive in a sportive event?

That depends on:
- what you mean by competitive
- how long the event is vs your abilities over that duration (i.e the % of FTP you are capable of sustaining for the duration of the sportive)
- the terrain, the hiller it is, the harder for those with relatively lower FTP/kg

Dug

Competitive in a sportive event - surely that is an oxymoron?

fuzzynavel

redddraggon wrote:

fuzzynavel wrote:

Currently I can push 300 Watts average over an hour at 50rpm....can only do about 270 watts if I lift the cadence....

50rpm is really low.....

fuzzynavel wrote:

Was just wondering what sort of power output would be required on average to be competitive in a sportive event?

Sportives are not races...

50 rpm is very low but I am trying to build up power with some endurance....I can go faster if I want to by dropping down some gears. I am weakest at hill climbs so thought this technique would emulate a climb better.
I also know that sportives are not races.....but someone has to come first..

fuzzynavel

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

fuzzynavel wrote:

Hi all.....

Was just wondering what sort of power output would be required on average to be competitive in a sportive event?

That depends on:
- what you mean by competitive
- how long the event is vs your abilities over that duration (i.e the % of FTP you are capable of sustaining for the duration of the sportive)
- the terrain, the hiller it is, the harder for those with relatively lower FTP/kg

I would like to be able to stay with the people who forget that it is not a race!!!
I am toying with doing the London - Brighton next year but want to get some local scottish rides in first. I know it is only 60 or so miles and is supposed to be a fun run but I don't do slow! If I am not sweating and puffing then I am not happy on my bike!

I aim to do my first century + ride from Edinburgh to Montrose up the national cycle route in about March/April so I am building for that. I would expect a 6 or 7 hour ride for that one....very hilly....I can do 66 mile canal rides without too much issue at the moment on my MTB at a decent pace but they are very flat and all you have to watch out for is dog walkers!

As far as abilities go....I am relatively fit.....I have always had muscular legs and the weight is flying off as I ride more. I haven't reached a wattage ceiling yet but I expect to plateau soon as I have been steadily increasing for the last 8 weeks.
In preparation for this plateau I have changed my exercise routine to include a long climb on a stepper (30 minutes at high effort/tempo) and some weights and cut the ride down a bit.... I just do one longer ride per week now to check my wattage.. I will mix it up again in a few weeks to keep my muscles guessing!

dennisn

fuzzynavel wrote:

Hi all.....

Was just wondering what sort of power output would be required on average to be competitive in a sportive event?

Currently I can push 300 Watts average over an hour at 50rpm....can only do about 270 watts if I lift the cadence....

My max output at the end of 60 minutes is around 574 Watts but only for 10 seconds or so for the sprint..... I am a bit of a fat bloater (100Kg and 5`11") so that works out as an average of 3ish watts per kilo for the hour.

I don't intend to enter anything until next spring and hope to lose a couple of stone before then (lost 1 stone in 8 weeks already)....

would I be able to stay with the pack??

IMHO watts has very little to do with you're wanting to "stay with the pack". Staying is all
about racing experience, knowing how to draft, position, ability to keep up with constant
accelerations, how long to "pull", how to do your "share" in keeping things going, how to get back "on" if you get dropped, how to ride a paceline, how to stay upright on your bike,
and many , many other little details that only come with practice and actually doing. Your
lack of experience in pack riding will get you pushed right out the back before you know it. Happens to everyone.
Sorry, but sometimes the truth hurts. Your thinking that just because your power output
is a certain number that this will keep you "up there" is a bit naive. You won't be able to
"hang" because the guys with all the race smarts will have you for lunch. My advice -
try and keep up and when you get dropped wait for the next group to catch you
and work with them.

Dennis Noward

fuzzynavel

dennisn wrote:

fuzzynavel wrote:

Hi all.....

Was just wondering what sort of power output would be required on average to be competitive in a sportive event?

Currently I can push 300 Watts average over an hour at 50rpm....can only do about 270 watts if I lift the cadence....

My max output at the end of 60 minutes is around 574 Watts but only for 10 seconds or so for the sprint..... I am a bit of a fat bloater (100Kg and 5`11") so that works out as an average of 3ish watts per kilo for the hour.

I don't intend to enter anything until next spring and hope to lose a couple of stone before then (lost 1 stone in 8 weeks already)....

would I be able to stay with the pack??

IMHO watts has very little to do with you're wanting to "stay with the pack". Staying is all
about racing experience, knowing how to draft, position, ability to keep up with constant
accelerations, how long to "pull", how to do your "share" in keeping things going, how to get back "on" if you get dropped, how to ride a paceline, how to stay upright on your bike,
and many , many other little details that only come with practice and actually doing. Your
lack of experience in pack riding will get you pushed right out the back before you know it. Happens to everyone.
Sorry, but sometimes the truth hurts. Your thinking that just because your power output
is a certain number that this will keep you "up there" is a bit naive. You won't be able to
"hang" because the guys with all the race smarts will have you for lunch. My advice -
try and keep up and when you get dropped wait for the next group to catch you
and work with them.

Dennis Noward

The truth doesn't hurt because I already know that as a nobody with no race experience that I will get chewed up and spat out...I can at least have a go. We all have to start somewhere! I am under no illusions that I am some superhuman and will be winning the TDF next year....I need to start some club riding and see where I stand with the more experienced guys and girls whilst losing weight, building power and getting some race smarts!.

dennisn

fuzzynavel wrote:

dennisn wrote:

fuzzynavel wrote:

Hi all.....

Was just wondering what sort of power output would be required on average to be competitive in a sportive event?

Currently I can push 300 Watts average over an hour at 50rpm....can only do about 270 watts if I lift the cadence....

My max output at the end of 60 minutes is around 574 Watts but only for 10 seconds or so for the sprint..... I am a bit of a fat bloater (100Kg and 5`11") so that works out as an average of 3ish watts per kilo for the hour.

I don't intend to enter anything until next spring and hope to lose a couple of stone before then (lost 1 stone in 8 weeks already)....

would I be able to stay with the pack??

IMHO watts has very little to do with you're wanting to "stay with the pack". Staying is all
about racing experience, knowing how to draft, position, ability to keep up with constant
accelerations, how long to "pull", how to do your "share" in keeping things going, how to get back "on" if you get dropped, how to ride a paceline, how to stay upright on your bike,
and many , many other little details that only come with practice and actually doing. Your
lack of experience in pack riding will get you pushed right out the back before you know it. Happens to everyone.
Sorry, but sometimes the truth hurts. Your thinking that just because your power output
is a certain number that this will keep you "up there" is a bit naive. You won't be able to
"hang" because the guys with all the race smarts will have you for lunch. My advice -
try and keep up and when you get dropped wait for the next group to catch you
and work with them.

Dennis Noward

The truth doesn't hurt because I already know that as a nobody with no race experience that I will get chewed up and spat out...I can at least have a go. We all have to start somewhere! I am under no illusions that I am some superhuman and will be winning the TDF next year....I need to start some club riding and see where I stand with the more experienced guys and girls whilst losing weight, building power and getting some race smarts!.

Rcaing is a hell of a lot of fun and you will get the hang of it after getting "chewed up
and spat out". I can't tell you how many times I thought I was going to "hang" or maybe even "do well" and found myself "sh*t out the back" before I understood how it all worked. Good luck.

Dennis Noward

fuzzynavel

I'm a bit of a late starter at 29 but I willkeep pushing as long as I keep enjoying it. Getting the club rides going is the first step.
From reading other forums, the power to weight (watts/kg) seems to be the measure of a good climber....If I can get the power sorted then hopefully I should just have to build endurance from there!

Kléber

Just ride. Give it ago. Too many newcomers seem to fear failure and being dropped but don't worry, try it. Honestly, your level of training and knowledge of power means your miles ahead of most weekend warriors.

fuzzynavel

Kléber wrote:

Just ride. Give it ago. Too many newcomers seem to fear failure and being dropped but don't worry, try it. Honestly, your level of training and knowledge of power means your miles ahead of most weekend warriors.

I've been reading about cycling almost religiously for the last 8 weeks since I decided to lose some weight. I need to buy a new bike but hope to have that sorted in a few weeks since I have knackered my MTB and can't be arsed fixing it...
I know there are a few clubs around Edinburgh and most have weekly rides which I intend to join once I have got used to a road bike.....

fuzzynavel

I've just remembered something....Instead of starting a new thread I will ask here..

I make sure that I warm up with stretches (although I have seen on here that stretching may not be the best idea) but I get really bad muscle burn for the first few minutes when I start riding.... I tend to just push harder to keep up the tempo and it goes away after a short time and I am able to carry on......

Any ideas what is going on.....could this be the bonk..Are my glycogen stores that bad...I have only been training for 8 weeks......how can I increase glycogen stores? Does this mean I am going off too fast and should build up slower?

Any other ideas?

andrewgturnbull

HI there.

Not the bonk, no. You bonk when you run out of readily-usable glycogen to fuel you muscles, and your body starts to shut down to preserve itself. This usually takes at least an hour or two of aerobic exercise (without enough eating), so it's unlikely that you'd suffer this at the beginning of a ride.

Soudns like you just need to start slower and take your time to warm up. You can stretch once you're warmed up if you want to.

Cheers, Andy

Alex_Simmons/RST

fuzzynavel wrote:

I'm a bit of a late starter at 29 but I willkeep pushing as long as I keep enjoying it. Getting the club rides going is the first step.
From reading other forums, the power to weight (watts/kg) seems to be the measure of a good climber....If I can get the power sorted then hopefully I should just have to build endurance from there!

. Keep the education going but there is nothing like the education you'll get by riding. I learned an awful lot on my first such ride. Also, listening to your attitude and how you like to ride, you will find that riding with a club or regular racers will do you some good. You have the fitness level to easily hang with them on training rides (maybe not on the hills) and the experience will greatly help your ability to paceline/draft and general bunch ride skills. Just make sure you know how to get home if they drop you

Focus on improving your sustainable power, eat well, and the weight will look after itself.

Kléber wrote:

Just ride. Give it ago. Too many newcomers seem to fear failure and being dropped but don't worry, try it. Honestly, your level of training and knowledge of power means your miles ahead of most weekend warriors.

Yep

fuzzynavel

Thanks for all your help guys.

Infamous

fuzzynavel wrote:

Currently I can push 300 Watts average over an hour at 50rpm....can only do about 270 watts if I lift the cadence....

My max output at the end of 60 minutes is around 574 Watts but only for 10 seconds or so for the sprint..... I am a bit of a fat bloater (100Kg and 5`11") so that works out as an average of 3ish watts per kilo for the hour.

I don't intend to enter anything until next spring and hope to lose a couple of stone before then (lost 1 stone in 8 weeks already)....

This seems odd to me. How do you know how much power you are producing?

fuzzynavel

Infamous wrote:

fuzzynavel wrote:

Currently I can push 300 Watts average over an hour at 50rpm....can only do about 270 watts if I lift the cadence....

My max output at the end of 60 minutes is around 574 Watts but only for 10 seconds or so for the sprint..... I am a bit of a fat bloater (100Kg and 5`11") so that works out as an average of 3ish watts per kilo for the hour.

I don't intend to enter anything until next spring and hope to lose a couple of stone before then (lost 1 stone in 8 weeks already)....

This seems odd to me. How do you know how much power you are producing?

I have a dyno attached to my wheel with 5 100watt bulbs attached to my handlebars.. I can tell the power by how bright they get!!

Joking aside I use a bike at the gym until I can get a new road bike. I always use the same bike and have been told that they are calibrated every couple of months...not ideal but it gives me some data to work with. Using the same bike removes some variables to make it a fairer test.

There are various methods of measuring power on bikes...
Have a look at the following post....It's another one of my random questions but there is a lot of useful info offered by others regarding power training.

http://www.bikeradar.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12582518&highlight=

Infamous

I would take a gym bike's readings with a pinch of salt... 300w on a power meter or a turbo would be impressive.

fuzzynavel

Infamous wrote:

I would take a gym bike's readings with a pinch of salt... 300w on a power meter or a turbo would be impressive.

I know what you mean. The wattage is more of a guess than a measurement..but they say that the bikes get calibrated every few months so they can't be that bad. I use it as more as an indication of progress which is why I always use the same bike.

I started by doing 211 watts average for the hour, 8 weeks ago....now It is showing 300 watts average for the hour....I conclude that I have gained nearly 50% performance over the time....I do feel fitter and my legs are more defined than they were....no wobbles any more from my thighs down.

Power meters for wheel hubs are expensive and some of the cheaper ones are probably no better than the gym bike. I pay for the gym membership anyway so may as well use that while I don't have a proper bike.
The real test will be once I get a new road bike and then go back to my old route to see if I have improved on the 1km 10% climb that I normally do.

Alex_Simmons/RST

If we know your mass (bike + rider), the elevation (or distance and gradient) and time taken, then a reasonable estimation of average power can be made.

e.g. 1km @ 10% gradient for a 110kg bike + rider producing 320 watts will take about 6 minutes give or take a few seconds.

Temperature 18.0 C
Air Pressure (sea level) 1,017 hPa
Relative Humidity 65 %
Wind Velocity (relative to Ground -ve = tailwind) - metres/second
Crr 0.0050
CdA 0.400 m^2
Speed 2.80 m/s
10.1 km/h
6.3 mph
Time 357 seconds
0:05:57 h:mm:ss

Here's a rough guide:

110kg - 1000 metres @ 10% gradient, no wind
min watts
5.0 385
5.5 350
6.0 320
6.5 295
7.0 275
7.5 255

fuzzynavel

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

If we know your mass (bike + rider), the elevation (or distance and gradient) and time taken, then a reasonable estimation of average power can be made.

e.g. 1km @ 10% gradient for a 110kg bike + rider producing 320 watts will take about 6 minutes give or take a few seconds.

Temperature 18.0 C
Air Pressure (sea level) 1,017 hPa
Relative Humidity 65 %
Wind Velocity (relative to Ground -ve = tailwind) - metres/second
Crr 0.0050
CdA 0.400 m^2
Speed 2.80 m/s
10.1 km/h
6.3 mph
Time 357 seconds
0:05:57 h:mm:ss

Here's a rough guide:

110kg - 1000 metres @ 10% gradient, no wind
min watts
5.0 385
5.5 350
6.0 320
6.5 295
7.0 275
7.5 255

thanks Alex....I have read, with interest, the other power thread where you were offering equations (big blue screen shot)..

One thing I am interested in is does the wattage vary depending on the gearing used? My perceived difficulty changes with gearing so surely the wattage must change too?

fuzzynavel

Hi all.

I have improved my training regime slightly. I have incorporated some weights and use of a stepper as well as a shorter, higher intensity ride on 1 of my 4 gym nights.

I still do my 60 minute slog at mid/high wattages (310watt average)( 3 evenings a week) but I have now added some intervals in near the end. I get to 49 minutes and then do 1 x 10 second sprint every minute until I hit 60 minutes at the hardest effort level that the bike allows. The bike says that I am pushing over 500watts....probably more like 450 if I allow for it being an exercise bike and not a turbo trainer. I also have my 100Kg frame to take into account when standing up so that may be adding to my wattages.
This exercise with the intervals leaves me knackered for a minute until my HR drops but then I could still continue with more excercise but I am wary of doing too much as I have only just started training (10 weeks ago) after several years of lazing around.

Are these intervals long enough or should I be pushing harder for longer?
Should I just listen to my body and push it as long as it is happy?
I am not sure if I have bonked properly yet although it does take about 20 minutes to get into a nice manageable pace on the exercise bike.

damage36

You're not going to bonk on an exercise bike, you can just get off when you feel tired. Until you get out on the road and have to get somewhere a long way away but don't have the glycogen stores you will bonk. And its not something to look forward to.

Alex_Simmons/RST

damage36 wrote:

You're not going to bonk on an exercise bike, you can just get off when you feel tired. Until you get out on the road and have to get somewhere a long way away but don't have the glycogen stores you will bonk. And its not something to look forward to.

Not only do you not want to bonk but it is not smart training either, makes recovery difficult and training on subsequent days will be sacrificed accordingly.

fuzzynavel

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

damage36 wrote:

You're not going to bonk on an exercise bike, you can just get off when you feel tired. Until you get out on the road and have to get somewhere a long way away but don't have the glycogen stores you will bonk. And its not something to look forward to.

Not only do you not want to bonk but it is not smart training either, makes recovery difficult and training on subsequent days will be sacrificed accordingly.

The only reason that I mentioned bonking is that someone on these forums (can't remember who) was saying that it is best to bonk during trainig so that you know the signs to look out for if you are ever in a race situatiion..

I had another training session last night..60minutes on the bike in tghe gym...I have managed to raise my one hour average up to 335 watts over the same course (same exercise bike) that I was pushing 211 average on 10 weeks ago. I left out the sprints last night after reading alex's blog article "In Pursuit of Perfect Pacing " which showed that strong but steady won the day...The only thing that I have really changed with my ride is that I carb loaded with a mars bar and a bottle of lucozade 2 hours before the ride...maybe my extra weights and stepper are paying dividends...

I also confirmed that these bikes were serviced 2 weeks ago and the wattages are tested as part of the service so they should be an ok guide to how I am doing...

One thing that is confusing is that my weight has stayed pretty stagnant for the last 3 weeks (16st 1lb) only fluctuating up or down by a pound at a time. I guess this is the plateau! Will just have to keep pushing and see if it resumes the decline in a few weeks.

Alex_Simmons/RST

fuzzynavel wrote:

I left out the sprints last night after reading alex's blog article "In Pursuit of Perfect Pacing " which showed that strong but steady won the day..

Nothing wrong with the sprint efforts. Nice change up, keeps it interesting. The pacing item was about individual pursuits, where getting it right is critical (even elite world class riders still get it wrong). That race can be lost in the first 30 seconds with poor pacing.

fuzzynavel wrote:

One thing that is confusing is that my weight has stayed pretty stagnant for the last 3 weeks (16st 1lb) only fluctuating up or down by a pound at a time. I guess this is the plateau! Will just have to keep pushing and see if it resumes the decline in a few weeks.

How are the skin fold measurements though?

Infamous

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

fuzzynavel wrote:

One thing that is confusing is that my weight has stayed pretty stagnant for the last 3 weeks (16st 1lb) only fluctuating up or down by a pound at a time. I guess this is the plateau! Will just have to keep pushing and see if it resumes the decline in a few weeks.

How are the skin fold measurements though?

Yeah presumably your body fat will be lower but your lean muscle will be higher.

The number on the scale means fk all.

fuzzynavel

Infamous wrote:

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

fuzzynavel wrote:

One thing that is confusing is that my weight has stayed pretty stagnant for the last 3 weeks (16st 1lb) only fluctuating up or down by a pound at a time. I guess this is the plateau! Will just have to keep pushing and see if it resumes the decline in a few weeks.

How are the skin fold measurements though?

Yeah presumably your body fat will be lower but your lean muscle will be higher.

The number on the scale means fk all.

My legs have very little fat in the calves, can still lose a little bit of fat from a thin layer on my inner thighs but definition and strength have definately improved in the legs. I think I still have about 2 stone of lard in my ass which I have always had and always hated which could be dropped(It makes my trousers fit incorrectly....consequently I have a 34 inch waist but buy 38 inch waist trousers...you get the picture!)
My shoulders are more defined and I can do sit-ups without my feet being held for the first time ever, although I see no noticeable difference. wish I'd done the before and after pictures!
.