Etape Caledonia - oh for Gods sake!
Comments
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This was the most exhilarating cycling event I have participated in bar none. The atmosphere at the start was electric and the freedom to ride fast in a bunch of cyclists without having to worry about traffic was a revelatory experience.
As other posters have said much of the course was on narrow track which would have made cycling on open roads downright hazardous and for me completely ruined the ride.
Hats off to all the folks who came out to cheer on the cyclists and a big thank you to the organisers.
On a personal note I managed the course in 4:37 which I was absolutely thrilled with (my target was 5:15).
By the way, does anyone know how the guy with a pot on his leg got on? Great stuff!"the more you drive the less intelligent you are"0 -
Hats off to the Mavic service team by the way. They were really helpful. Great Stuff also
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pneumatic wrote:Dear Elistoun
It is generally much easier to say no than to suggest an alternative.
so, please tell us what it would take for you to consider agreeing to the road closures
It is important that we know, because, frankly last year (in the rain) and this year (in perfect conditions) I had two of the most thrilling and inspiring bicycle rides of my life.
Nobody should abuse you for having a view, but we would like to know what could be done to persuade you.
Over to you.
The following alternatives, if it has to be a closed road event, have already been suggested to the council :-
1. Hold the event in outside the peak May to mid-September season when the tourist trade could do with a boost.
(Note that for many businesses in the area there are only perhaps 15 to 20 good trading weekends May to August and for many, especially accommodation providers, this event deters and displaces the normal trade on one of those weekends. The one night stay of the majority of the 'eventers' is no substitute for the multi-night weekend bookings deterred / displaced - rather like the Saturday night rugby club pub session being displaced by the chess club members nursing their sweet sherries for the entire evening.)
2. Only hold a closed road event over a route where there are suitable alternative routes available - much of this route leaves no way in or out for residents or other visitors.
3. Do not hold the event over the same route every year, thus ensuring a fair distribution of pain and gain - in other words, ensure a level playing field for all the communities in Highland Perthshire.
4. Since 88% finished within 2 hours of the fastest rider in 2007 (75% in 2008) make 2 hours the maximum closure time for any section.
They were all vetoed by the event organiser who wishes to keep his unique selling point of closed roads so that he can charge the excessive £49 entry fee. So the other contributors to this forum who say that it is all about money are absolutely right.
I would also point out that:-
There is near 100% support in the area for open road cyclosportive events with many willing volunteers to marshall and assist. General opinion is that such events could be run throughout the tourist season, over whole weekends if necessary, without the negative social and economic impacts of this event, and without directly subsidising a major London-based company with public funds.
Locally organised Iron Man events in the Loch Tay and Loch Rannoch areas have raised £3½ m for Maggies centres over five years without closing a road, and the Rannoch Marathon around the loch was run safely and successfully for years on open roads. In fact the council has refused all previous applications to close roads for local charity events. Allowing an outside company to do so for profit does not sit well with the locals.0 -
Lifeson wrote:a farmer with a poster who reckons that the road closures for a few hours of one day had cost him £5,000 !! I'm in the wrong job
£5000 a day
The roads were only shut for a few hours
I was surprised that the majority of shops were shut in Pilochry at 5 yet the town was full of people when we went to register @ 6:30pm
Spent my money in the only souvenir shop that had the sense to stay open.
Not a farmer but the operator of a tourist attraction who had to lay off staff and shut down for the day because visitors could not reach his place of business.
He was not alone - white water rafting companies could not get the access they require to the rivers for operational and safety reasons; Aberfeldy was dead all day and many other businesses along the route or cut off by the road closures did little or no trade.
Many of the Pitlochry businesses based their decision of whether to open or not on their experience of the 2007 event. I can assure you, if they had thought it was worthwhile, they would have been open.0 -
Thats the problem this is all about money and not about safety. As already stated this event would not have been safe due to the nature of the roads and the number taking part. I do sympathis with anyone who lost out financially due to the event but it is swings and roundabouts and its all about compromise. As I said one morning a year is not much to ask for. What price a life? Run it in the winter and someone may have a bad accident on icy roads, run it on open roads and someone may get killed.
If it is causing so much financial hardship then maybe we could go earlier and open the roads quicker. I'm happy to compromise a bit but not to the detriment of keeping the event safe.
Give and take is the way to go.0 -
elistoun wrote:pneumatic wrote:Dear Elistoun
It is generally much easier to say no than to suggest an alternative.
so, please tell us what it would take for you to consider agreeing to the road closures
It is important that we know, because, frankly last year (in the rain) and this year (in perfect conditions) I had two of the most thrilling and inspiring bicycle rides of my life.
Nobody should abuse you for having a view, but we would like to know what could be done to persuade you.
Over to you.
The following alternatives, if it has to be a closed road event, have already been suggested to the council :-
1. Hold the event in outside the peak May to mid-September season when the tourist trade could do with a boost.
(Note that for many businesses in the area there are only perhaps 15 to 20 good trading weekends May to August and for many, especially accommodation providers, this event deters and displaces the normal trade on one of those weekends. The one night stay of the majority of the 'eventers' is no substitute for the multi-night weekend bookings deterred / displaced - rather like the Saturday night rugby club pub session being displaced by the chess club members nursing their sweet sherries for the entire evening.)
2. Only hold a closed road event over a route where there are suitable alternative routes available - much of this route leaves no way in or out for residents or other visitors.
3. Do not hold the event over the same route every year, thus ensuring a fair distribution of pain and gain - in other words, ensure a level playing field for all the communities in Highland Perthshire.
4. Since 88% finished within 2 hours of the fastest rider in 2007 (75% in 2008) make 2 hours the maximum closure time for any section.
They were all vetoed by the event organiser who wishes to keep his unique selling point of closed roads so that he can charge the excessive £49 entry fee. So the other contributors to this forum who say that it is all about money are absolutely right.
I would also point out that:-
There is near 100% support in the area for open road cyclosportive events with many willing volunteers to marshall and assist. General opinion is that such events could be run throughout the tourist season, over whole weekends if necessary, without the negative social and economic impacts of this event, and without directly subsidising a major London-based company with public funds.
Locally organised Iron Man events in the Loch Tay and Loch Rannoch areas have raised £3½ m for Maggies centres over five years without closing a road, and the Rannoch Marathon around the loch was run safely and successfully for years on open roads. In fact the council has refused all previous applications to close roads for local charity events. Allowing an outside company to do so for profit does not sit well with the locals.
You claim that the event organiser vetoed your proposed changes but it would seem not to be the case.
The event was brought forward 4 weeks from last year plus the start (and finish) times were brought forward.
Your claim that the entry fee is excessive is surely a concern of the entrants (who seem unconcerned) rather than the locals.
You also mention the locals concern that profit is going to an "outside company" and a "London based" one at that. Do I detect a large element of xenophobia?0 -
Just wanted to say I rode the event both years and had an excellent time each year. I managed to shave 40mins of my time this year, getting it down to a reasonable 5 hours 22 mins (Still lots of room for improvement). Big thanks to all the volunteers, organisers, locals and the couple of groups I manage to hang onto for a few kilometres.
I came away this year looking forward to next year and planning a non cycling weekend in the area just to relax and explore and hopefully input a bit more into the local economy as thank you for the obvious inconvenience closing the roads caused. Then on Monday morning I fire up the browser and the BBC News article appears and then stumble across the Comment Online website and then the Elistoun post, hence my post here.
I am now not so sure about the trip back now, although I think punishing the whole of the area because of a few outspoken individuals is not the best action, I am disappointed by the reaction to the road closures and felt the protesters signs very hypocritical. The area is not somewhere I would have visited without the cycle event and it opened my eyes to a new part of Scotland, maybe I should just stay on the A9 and head further north. Shieldaig did not mind their village being effectively taken over for the Bealach Beag event so maybe a better reception awaits there.
That's enough rambling, I want to finish by covering a few points and asking a couple of questions:
Can the event be run on open roads?
No, as an example: Bealach Beag – 1 rider collided with a car and I personally had a couple of near misses (As you can see from my time above I am not the fastest rider out there so my speed was not the issue!) and that was with 500 riders and even then they closed the climb to non event vehicles.
Are there solutions to most of the issues raised?
Yes, but it will require compromise from both sides. I believe the Etape made compromises this year but I have not heard anything about the compromises the local community made, and I do not think closing a road for a few hours is a compromise.
I also have a couple of questions for Elistoun who seems to be up on the facts and figures:
1. Along the event route how many places were available in all types of accommodation on offer within the area on Friday/Saturday night and how did that increase on the Sunday night?
2. What did your local village/town/house do to integrate with the event and offer something for the riders and families to spend money on?
Dazza0 -
Elistoun
hats off to you for taking the time to reply, you must have broad shoulders and you do make one very reasonable point:
3. Do not hold the event over the same route every year, thus ensuring a fair distribution of pain and gain - in other words, ensure a level playing field for all the communities in Highland Perthshire.
hold the event in Timbuktoo as far as I'm concerned so long as it has similar roads and similar protocol (ie closed roads) in a scenic area in N Perthshire.
I have done lots of events like this on open roads and they are simply not the same at all and use wider A roads and there are definitely safety concerns on them all.
I would not travel far to do them again, I would to do an E.C. like event.
Make it happen and I will come and many others too.0 -
aya604 wrote:elistoun wrote:pneumatic wrote:Dear Elistoun
It is generally much easier to say no than to suggest an alternative.
so, please tell us what it would take for you to consider agreeing to the road closures
It is important that we know, because, frankly last year (in the rain) and this year (in perfect conditions) I had two of the most thrilling and inspiring bicycle rides of my life.
Nobody should abuse you for having a view, but we would like to know what could be done to persuade you.
Over to you.
The following alternatives, if it has to be a closed road event, have already been suggested to the council :-
1. Hold the event in outside the peak May to mid-September season when the tourist trade could do with a boost.
(Note that for many businesses in the area there are only perhaps 15 to 20 good trading weekends May to August and for many, especially accommodation providers, this event deters and displaces the normal trade on one of those weekends. The one night stay of the majority of the 'eventers' is no substitute for the multi-night weekend bookings deterred / displaced - rather like the Saturday night rugby club pub session being displaced by the chess club members nursing their sweet sherries for the entire evening.)
2. Only hold a closed road event over a route where there are suitable alternative routes available - much of this route leaves no way in or out for residents or other visitors.
3. Do not hold the event over the same route every year, thus ensuring a fair distribution of pain and gain - in other words, ensure a level playing field for all the communities in Highland Perthshire.
4. Since 88% finished within 2 hours of the fastest rider in 2007 (75% in 2008) make 2 hours the maximum closure time for any section.
They were all vetoed by the event organiser who wishes to keep his unique selling point of closed roads so that he can charge the excessive £49 entry fee. So the other contributors to this forum who say that it is all about money are absolutely right.
I would also point out that:-
There is near 100% support in the area for open road cyclosportive events with many willing volunteers to marshall and assist. General opinion is that such events could be run throughout the tourist season, over whole weekends if necessary, without the negative social and economic impacts of this event, and without directly subsidising a major London-based company with public funds.
Locally organised Iron Man events in the Loch Tay and Loch Rannoch areas have raised £3½ m for Maggies centres over five years without closing a road, and the Rannoch Marathon around the loch was run safely and successfully for years on open roads. In fact the council has refused all previous applications to close roads for local charity events. Allowing an outside company to do so for profit does not sit well with the locals.
You claim that the event organiser vetoed your proposed changes but it would seem not to be the case.
The event was brought forward 4 weeks from last year plus the start (and finish) times were brought forward.
Your claim that the entry fee is excessive is surely a concern of the entrants (who seem unconcerned) rather than the locals.
You also mention the locals concern that profit is going to an "outside company" and a "London based" one at that. Do I detect a large element of xenophobia?
"xenophobia" = hatred or fear of foreigners or strangers or of their politics or culture.
Don't be silly ! What you detect is a sense of injustice - read the last two sentences:
Font colour: Default Dark Red Red Orange Brown Yellow Green Olive Cyan Blue Dark Blue Indigo Violet White Black Font size: Font size Tiny Small Normal Large Huge Close Tagsaya604 wrote:elistoun wrote:pneumatic wrote:Dear Elistoun
It is generally much easier to say no than to suggest an alternative.
so, please tell us what it would take for you to consider agreeing to the road closures
It is important that we know, because, frankly last year (in the rain) and this year (in perfect conditions) I had two of the most thrilling and inspiring bicycle rides of my life.
Nobody should abuse you for having a view, but we would like to know what could be done to persuade you.
Over to you.
The following alternatives, if it has to be a closed road event, have already been suggested to the council :-
1. Hold the event in outside the peak May to mid-September season when the tourist trade could do with a boost.
(Note that for many businesses in the area there are only perhaps 15 to 20 good trading weekends May to August and for many, especially accommodation providers, this event deters and displaces the normal trade on one of those weekends. The one night stay of the majority of the 'eventers' is no substitute for the multi-night weekend bookings deterred / displaced - rather like the Saturday night rugby club pub session being displaced by the chess club members nursing their sweet sherries for the entire evening.)
2. Only hold a closed road event over a route where there are suitable alternative routes available - much of this route leaves no way in or out for residents or other visitors.
3. Do not hold the event over the same route every year, thus ensuring a fair distribution of pain and gain - in other words, ensure a level playing field for all the communities in Highland Perthshire.
4. Since 88% finished within 2 hours of the fastest rider in 2007 (75% in 2008) make 2 hours the maximum closure time for any section.
They were all vetoed by the event organiser who wishes to keep his unique selling point of closed roads so that he can charge the excessive £49 entry fee. So the other contributors to this forum who say that it is all about money are absolutely right.
I would also point out that:-
There is near 100% support in the area for open road cyclosportive events with many willing volunteers to marshall and assist. General opinion is that such events could be run throughout the tourist season, over whole weekends if necessary, without the negative social and economic impacts of this event, and without directly subsidising a major London-based company with public funds.
Locally organised Iron Man events in the Loch Tay and Loch Rannoch areas have raised £3½ m for Maggies centres over five years without closing a road, and the Rannoch Marathon around the loch was run safely and successfully for years on open roads. In fact the council has refused all previous applications to close roads for local charity events. Allowing an outside company to do so for profit does not sit well with the locals.
You claim that the event organiser vetoed your proposed changes but it would seem not to be the case.
The event was brought forward 4 weeks from last year plus the start (and finish) times were brought forward.
Your claim that the entry fee is excessive is surely a concern of the entrants (who seem unconcerned) rather than the locals.
You also mention the locals concern that profit is going to an "outside company" and a "London based" one at that. Do I detect a large element of xenophobia?
"xenophobia" = hatred or fear of foreigners or strangers or of their politics or culture.
Don't be silly ! What you detect is a sense of injustice - read the last two sentences
Font colour: Default Dark Red Red Orange Brown Yellow Green Olive Cyan Blue Dark Blue Indigo Violet White Black Font size: Font size Tiny Small Normal Large Huge Close Tagsaya604 wrote:elistoun wrote:pneumatic wrote:Dear Elistoun
It is generally much easier to say no than to suggest an alternative.
so, please tell us what it would take for you to consider agreeing to the road closures
It is important that we know, because, frankly last year (in the rain) and this year (in perfect conditions) I had two of the most thrilling and inspiring bicycle rides of my life.
Nobody should abuse you for having a view, but we would like to know what could be done to persuade you.
Over to you.
The following alternatives, if it has to be a closed road event, have already been suggested to the council :-
1. Hold the event in outside the peak May to mid-September season when the tourist trade could do with a boost.
(Note that for many businesses in the area there are only perhaps 15 to 20 good trading weekends May to August and for many, especially accommodation providers, this event deters and displaces the normal trade on one of those weekends. The one night stay of the majority of the 'eventers' is no substitute for the multi-night weekend bookings deterred / displaced - rather like the Saturday night rugby club pub session being displaced by the chess club members nursing their sweet sherries for the entire evening.)
2. Only hold a closed road event over a route where there are suitable alternative routes available - much of this route leaves no way in or out for residents or other visitors.
3. Do not hold the event over the same route every year, thus ensuring a fair distribution of pain and gain - in other words, ensure a level playing field for all the communities in Highland Perthshire.
4. Since 88% finished within 2 hours of the fastest rider in 2007 (75% in 2008) make 2 hours the maximum closure time for any section.
They were all vetoed by the event organiser who wishes to keep his unique selling point of closed roads so that he can charge the excessive £49 entry fee. So the other contributors to this forum who say that it is all about money are absolutely right.
I would also point out that:-
There is near 100% support in the area for open road cyclosportive events with many willing volunteers to marshall and assist. General opinion is that such events could be run throughout the tourist season, over whole weekends if necessary, without the negative social and economic impacts of this event, and without directly subsidising a major London-based company with public funds.
Locally organised Iron Man events in the Loch Tay and Loch Rannoch areas have raised £3½ m for Maggies centres over five years without closing a road, and the Rannoch Marathon around the loch was run safely and successfully for years on open roads. In fact the council has refused all previous applications to close roads for local charity events. Allowing an outside company to do so for profit does not sit well with the locals.
You claim that the event organiser vetoed your proposed changes but it would seem not to be the case.
The event was brought forward 4 weeks from last year plus the start (and finish) times were brought forward.
Your claim that the entry fee is excessive is surely a concern of the entrants (who seem unconcerned) rather than the locals.
You also mention the locals concern that profit is going to an "outside company" and a "London based" one at that. Do I detect a large element of xenophobia?
The 18 May date was the one set at the organiser's insistence at a closed door, invitation-only meeting in Pitlochry on 16 October 2007 before any 'consultation' with community or businesses took place. In the subsequent closed door invitation-only 'consultation' meetings no further discussion of the date was permitted.
"xenophobia" = hatred or fear of foreigners or strangers or of their politics or culture.
Don't be silly ! What you detect is a sense of unfairness and injustice - read the last two sentences:-
In fact the council has refused all previous applications to close roads for local charity events. Allowing an outside company to do so for profit does not sit well with the locals.
"local charity events" & "outside company" "for profit" - see the link?0 -
Dear Elistoun
thanks for your reply. others may disagree, but for my part:
Yes, I would do the event in April or September (rather the latter as I really need to train and get up to speed on the evidence of this year).
Yes, I would do the event over a different course (although your bit of Perthshire is outstandingly beautiful).
I'm not sure I could go any faster, but I did finish within an hour and a half or so of the fastest, so I suppose the sweep wagon could come around and warn the stragglers.
I think 49 pounds was a fair price for such a fantastic experience (better value than the price I have to pay to attend football and rugby matches as a mere spectator)
I would love to think that the organisers were local, but the folk from London are the only people who have shown the initiative to arrange this fantastic event and I thank them for that.
I lecture on consultation. It is not quite as simple a process as holding a mass meeting about everything.0 -
Dear Elistoun,
The protesters seemed to be mostly part of the 'Country Set' to me. From speaking to a few business people in Pitlochry, nobody was going to be out of pocket at all - quite the opposite. And nobody does much on a Sunday anyway.
The bible-bashers had nothing to complain about either as far as I could see. My wife went to church in Pitlochry on Saturday evening as the service had simply been moved forward. Whats the big deal?
It actually took me a while to realise what the 'protest' was all about. When something is as stupid and futile as this, it doesn't ring home for a wee while.
It amazes me when the 'incomers' set up in Scotland and very quickly start complaining about the 'tourists'. And the 'Country Set' contribute very little to the Scottish economy - they've bloody inherited their wealth!
The Etape was a fine day out. The only gripe I had was with the gravel on tight corners. It wouldn't have taken much to arm the stewards with stiff brushes. Apart from that - it was a triumph.
Our hearts wept for that Range-Rover bloke losing £5000 though - shame he decided to sit around on his deckchair reading The Times instead. As for the rafters - they were out in force.
Cheers.0 -
DazzaOnTheRoad wrote:
I also have a couple of questions for Elistoun who seems to be up on the facts and figures:
1. Along the event route how many places were available in all types of accommodation on offer within the area on Friday/Saturday night and how did that increase on the Sunday night?
2. What did your local village/town/house do to integrate with the event and offer something for the riders and families to spend money on?
Dazza
I am afraid I cannot answer question 1, I do not have the information and I doubt if anyone else has either. What I can do is relate the reality of this event for me and my staff - I run a small hotel about 19 miles west of the A9.
2007: Long before any local heard of Etape Caledonia I was fully booked for that weekend - a 16 strong party for 3 nights DB&B + packed lunches + sales of wine / refreshments etc. The customer had planned 3 days of activities / visits to local attractions etc for the group. He cancelled the booking when it became apparent that his carefully planned Sunday would be totally disrupted by the road closures.
Although I subsequently had several other enquires for accommodation over that weekend, none came to fruition because of the road closures. I ended up with a single B & B booking on the Friday night. The guest originally intended to stay Saturday night as well, but decided to not to stay on as it would mean too early a start on the Sunday morning to avoid being stuck in location till the roads reopened. (In the end we were effectively cut off until 01.50 pm). There was no work for my staff on Saturday or Sunday.
Summary – potential for weekend = 48 DB&B bed nights : actual = 1 x B & B bed night.
I had no event-related enquiries for accommodation and no subsequent business from anyone returning to the area as a result of having attended the 2007 event.
Not counting possible wine / refreshment sales the cost of the event was 28% of gross income for June / just over 4 % of annual gross income.
2008: May being the best trading month I could have expected to be fully booked every weekend as per May 2007, and I have been for every weekend except that of the event.
Summary – potential for the weekend = 48 DB & B bed nights : actual = 10 DB & B bed nights. Bookings known to have been lost because of the event and the road closures = 28 DB & B bed nights + 4 B & B bed nights.
What did I do for the event ? I took 10 x DB & B (late in the day) event-related bookings, the only such accommodation enquiries I had - 4 adults, (3 participating) with 4 year old child for one night, and 1 participant with wife and mother in support for 2 nights.
These guests were made very welcome – the 4 year old stayed free of charge. We took delivery of their bikes from a courier and ensured that they were securely stored (£4000 carbon fibre machines) until picked up again. We were up at 5 am to give them breakfast before the participants left for Pitlochry. Although check out time is 1030 am, those in support had the run of the hotel + tea / coffee & scones FOC throughout the day, and the participants booked in for just one night were able to have hot showers on return FOC. They were treated with the utmost friendliness and courtesy and afforded the best hospitality we could offer. My grievance is with Perth & Kinross Council, not with cyclists or their families.
The 2007 & 2008 events have cost me £5000+ gross income inside a year and have cost my staff wages. Each year this event runs in the same format over the same course, the cost to my business and my staff will be cumulative. It costs you £49 per annum, the price to us, and to at least 50+ other businesses and their staffs, is much greater. How much of your income are you prepared to sacrifice for someone else’s fun ?0 -
The more I read about this both here and other forums the more it seems that those who object to this event have got a whole lot more on their agendas than just the closing of a few roads on a Sunday morning:
There has been a whole load of whinging about poor old Aberfeldy.
Aberfeldy was not actually on the route. It had open access from the South, the West the East, and if you were coming down the A9 from the North as well with a slight elongation of the route. I went into Aberfeldy on the afternoon after the race. The only reason why the town was 'dead' was because most of the shops were closed. Judging by the notices on their doors they close every Sunday & not because of the Etape.
The effect on businesses. If someone is making £5000 profit from half a days work then quite frankly I lose no sleep over them losing it, especially as it seems that they only have to work for 20 weekends a year. What are they: Premiership Footballers? The figures quoted just do not add up.
A lot of the complaints have been about how the event effects ability to worship on a Sunday, about how people have been imprisoned in their houses and the unjust deprivation being inflicted on the locals. But judging from the tenor of elistoun's remarks, all this would be Ok if the event was locally organized and not by a London based company. Either the event has significant negative effect on the local economy and people or it doesn't. Who organizes it should not make a difference. One of the sadder things about prejudice is that those who are guilty of it are never able to recognize that this is what they are exhibiting. (& please don't give me the line that city dwellers can't understand how closing a road for a couple of hours affects those in the country.)
As to the compromises suggested above. One of the consistent lines of complaint has been that the very act of closing the roads deters other visitors for the whole weekend. How can elistoun argue that the whole weekend is lost to local businesses and then suggest that closing the road for 2 hours rather than 3 will make a difference? I suggest the reason this 'compromise' as been suggested is that such a rapid time requirement would deter significant numbers of people from entering and therfore affect the events viability. Likewise the constant harping on the event's expense doesn't seem to be driven by altruism. I'm sorry. I think it is good value.
This debate should be whether closing the roads one Sunday morning for between 1.5 and 4 hours is an unwarranted imposition on other people. I would not attend the Etape Caledonia if I genuinely believed that I was selfishly having a significant impact on the local population. If people genuinely are losing money then surely it can't be beyond the wit of the council to give them compensation
I'll be back next year.0 -
ellieb wrote:. If people genuinely are losing money then surely it can't be beyond the wit of the council to give them compensation.
It is the council's stated policy that it does not pay compensation to individual businesses (stated at the 16 October 2007 meeting in Pitlochry when the issue of compensation was raised).
Apparently though, it is not contrary to this policy to pay a "grant" of £20,000 of public money to Etape Caledonia organiser IMG to cover losses of the 2007 event; and to allocate £12,000 for a similar purpose for the 2008 event (Minutes of the January 2008 Environment & Infrastructure Committee meeting which gave final approval to the event).
Another ill-informed comment !!!0 -
It is interesting how this has developed: that the road closure argument is more than just a motorist v cyclist issue.
Elistoun, you should realise the extreme sensitivity that cyclists who are a very vulnerable minority on our roads have about this thorny issue. Hop on a bike and you'd figure it out soon enough.
My first impressions were that this was mostly just folk in cars demanding their "rights" to constant road use and probably some of this is the case but there does appear to be other genuine arguments worth hearing too. Some have been significantly disdvantaged by this.
I am sure we would all like a happy resolution of this AND have a closed road event.0 -
KeithG wrote:It is interesting how this has developed: that the road closure argument is more than just a motorist v cyclist issue.
Elistoun, you should realise the extreme sensitivity that cyclists who are a very vulnerable minority on our roads have about this thorny issue. Hop on a bike and you'd figure it out soon enough.
My first impressions were that this was mostly just folk in cars demanding their "rights" to constant road use and probably some of this is the case but there does appear to be other genuine arguments worth hearing too. Some have been significantly disdvantaged by this.
I am sure we would all like a happy resolution of this AND have a closed road event.
Locally this has not ever been a motorist v cyclist issue, in fact I am not aware that this has ever been raised at all by anyone in Highland Perthshire.
I do get on my bike - I cycle and drive on the event route on a daily basis and have certainly had some scary brushes with inconsiderate, and sometimes criminally reckless motorists. I have also been obstructed and crawled along narrow roads behind groups of cyclists insisting on their 'right' (?) to cycle two (or more) abreast. The scariest moment, bar none, involved a would be Lance Armstrong going wide at speed on a blind corner and leaving a scrape down the side of my vehicle. Luckily he suffered only minor damage, and was fit enough to swear at me as he re-mounted and made off.
On balance, my sympathies lie with the cyclists, and I feel they are always due a bit of extra consideration, if only because in any mishap they are likely to come off worse.0 -
What amazes me, if the roads were that narrow with that many riders, irrespective of whether the roads were closed or not, I doubt there would have been free movement of traffic anyhow, as the mass of bikes would have meant the cars staying where they were until all the bikes had passed.
Now the orad closures were not for very long, if people don't want to visit the area because of a few hours disruption, then so be it.
We had the Radio 1 Big Weekend here in Maidstone, roads were completely closed off for 2 days solid, and affected all those that lived around the park, you should be thankful that they were only closed for a few hours.
To be honest I would have thought some of the cancellations in both years were nothing to do with the event, and more likely people having a change of mind, perhaps weather, but thought claiming the road closures were a better reason, though in an area a beautiful as this, why do people have to take to the car anyhow, go for a walk.
There will alway be local opposition to an event which causes even the slightest inconvience, but that is the British for you. I can't remember any real issues when roads galore where temporarily closed last year around Maidstone due to the TdF, most villages instead of moaning held events, and celebrated the fact. Most were probably happy the roads were closed, so the normal Sunday traffic wasn't there.0 -
Elistoun wroteLocally organised Iron Man events in the Loch Tay and Loch Rannoch areas have raised £3½ m for Maggies centres over five years without closing a road, and the Rannoch Marathon around the loch was run safely and successfully for years on open roads
Without wishing to be picky, I lived in the Rannoch area for some time and seem to remember that the marathon was run over closed roads and in fact the church service at Bridge of Gaur was changed to fit in with the event. Certainly in the early days when it had a decent entry.
Anyway, apart from that, the etape was huge fun and it is a great pity that it has got caught up in this particular wrangle. Let's hope that it's all sorted out peacefully before next year[/i]0 -
elistoun wrote:ellieb wrote:. If people genuinely are losing money then surely it can't be beyond the wit of the council to give them compensation.
I
Another ill-informed comment !!!
Er.. Not ill-informed. I know the council didn't pay compensation and I know it is their policy not to pay compensation,what I'm suggesting is that maybe they should :roll:0 -
As a veteran of these roads both by car and bike, I have to agree that at least part of this route had to be closed. The North Tummel road is narrow and blind in places. It's usual Sunday traffic would involve bus tours which take up the width of the road. There's lots of traffic on that stretch which just should not be there, including HGV's which regularly get stuck on the hairpin on the way up to Queens View. You just could not risk riders facing buses coming round blind bends in the middle of the road. It's the only part of the route I would describe as busy.
Some of the roads, especially between Coshieville and Logierait, might have been capable of surviving with lane restrictions rather than complete closures. Just a thought.
The road closures were well warned in advance. It's only once a year. I find the attitude of some of the locals rather embarrassing, especially since the whole area was quids in due to the Saturday registration. Also, judging by those I passed and who passed me on my wee run up the very wet Schiehallion road on the Friday, plenty of folk had made the trip well in advance. As they well know, there was no lost business. It increased.
As for the churches, I am familiar with the view that sport should not be played on a Sunday ,end of. I know a few folk who are piously outraged at marathons, grand prix etc being run on the Sabbath. I don't see a way around this. I suspect that route changes may be required to permit access for 11am services. I doubt there will ever be a compromise. The opposing argument will be that the event could take place on a Saturday or on a Sunday afternoon.0 -
Elistoun, as you don't give your location, I've tried to be Sherlock and I'm guessing based on the info that you have given that your hotel is in Kinloch Rannoch or nearby. (Aberfeldy and it's environs isn't as much as 19 miles west).elistoun wrote:What I can do is relate the reality of this event for me and my staff - I run a small hotel about 19 miles west of the A9.
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2007: .... to avoid being stuck in location till the roads reopened. (In the end we were effectively cut off until 01.50 pm).
If this is the case the shortening of the road closures should have meant your road was open either by 09:00 or 09:40 this year. Did this help? Or if you are indeed somewhere else, did the new road closure times help?
Having had to drive back to Aberfeldy for lunch (as an aside, I've been there before on a Sun and there is literally nothing open before lunchtime) I've a few observations on the signage and impact:
- heading South from Pitlochry on the A9 I saw a Diversion sign indicating the A827 was closed (as it was) and the diversion was via *Perth*. This is total nonsense and the signed diversion should be fixed - it should be via Milton (on the road to Amulree)
- having driven this (Milton) diversion and seen the signs on the A9 it is clear that closing the A827 for the 2 to 3 miles to Logierait has big implications for through traffic to Aberfeldy, Kenmore and beyond especially as coming at the end of the route it has the longest closure. Either the A827 should at least be half-open (coned) to allow traffic either into or out of the Aberfeldy area (or alternating). Or the Etape Route should follow cycle route 7 along the B898 with 2 traffic controls at either end of the B898 sectionWhy the name? Like the Hobbit I don't shave my legs0 -
I have a feeling this issue could rumble along without resolution for years.
The event is so successful that I can't see a big change being made unless perhaps it's staged in Aberfeldy one year and Pitlochry the next (judgement of Solomon sort of thing here).
This letter in the Scotsman in reply to my earlier one, in reply to hers etc rather makes the point that events like this have winners and losers inevitably and lessening the pain and sharing out the gain may be the only way forward.
http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/letters ... 4102903.jp
I genuinely hope for a happier Sunday all round next year.0 -
I can empathise with ellstoun's comments. 2000 of us effectively took over his vallley for a cracking morning on the bike. He or his friends lost money and business in the process. Yes, we can be arrogant about this about say stuff you. But, business in the highlands is not easy, the season is short. Personally, I think the organisers should look at options. Perhaps switching the route around, perhaps reducing the closed timings, perhaps moving the event to the 'off season'. I enjoyed my morning - one of the best days on the bike I have had, simply because it was closed. I think the early timings worked well. Maybe starting at 0630-0700 might reduce the problems further.0
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I think, given the way that this is going, that we should all agree to descend upon Elistoun's wonderful hotel one weekend in the Winter and have an Etape Caledonia reunion. We should promise to drink lots of Malt whisky at the bar, eat the best things on the menu and share reminiscences of what a truly awesome day it was last Sunday. We could even do a (gentle!) tour of the route, starting and finishing at the hotel.
Moving the conversation on a bit, is anyone else outraged at the price of the pictures offered by Sportcam? I'm not paying 50 quid for a CD. When I did the Alpe D'Huez and the Ventoux, I bought digital images for a much better price than they are quoting for a chemist-shop print.
Just as well I look like Monsieur Michelin in all the photos and am not even tempted to shell out!0 -
Yes, bloody pricey. Don't thnk I will be tempted. The pics lack style - just quickly taken piccies.0
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Great event I thought. I rode it with eight mates and the verdict was that we'll be back next year. Well organised and a great route.
I also thought, it was a very friendly event...I didn't see too much of this wannabe-pro rubbish, where folk are hassled for 'sitting in'. It's a sportive for gods sake, I'm happy for anybody to sit on my wheel, and will blag a tow here and there.
I've no sympathy at all for the anti-road closure lobby. We spent a fortune up there, local businesses in Pittlochry must have raked it in. Without doubt a massive injection of cash into the area. 'No Church ;o(" as stated on one old womans sign?...if Jesus was knocking about today, I've no doubt he'd have been clapping us on or setting a good pace in retro wool jersey. Don't be so silly women...wake-up to yourself.
Most villagers seemed to be loving it.
Will be back in 09, unless it's open roads or an earlier start, in which case, we (and many others) will simply go elsewhere.Mat0 -
Great event I thought. I rode it with eight mates and the verdict was that we'll be back next year. Well organised and a great route.
I also thought, it was a very friendly event...I didn't see too much of this wannabe-pro rubbish, where folk are hassled for 'sitting in'. It's a sportive for gods sake, I'm happy for anybody to sit on my wheel, and will blag a tow here and there.
I've no sympathy at all for the anti-road closure lobby. We spent a fortune up there, local businesses in Pittlochry must have raked it in. Without doubt a massive injection of cash into the area. 'No Church ;o(" as stated on one old womans sign?...if Jesus was knocking about today, I've no doubt he'd have been clapping us on or setting a good pace in retro wool jersey. Don't be so silly women...wake-up to yourself.
Most villagers seemed to be loving it.
Will be back in 09, unless it's open roads or an earlier start, in which case, we (and many others) will simply go elsewhere.Mat0 -
That's my first sportive, the only reason I entered was because of the closed roads.
I drove across from Crianlarich on the Saturday, registered, took my wife for lunch, went to a garden centre, then did the cycle around Loch Rannoch.
Same journey on the Sunday morning to enjoy a unique event and then spend more money in the Pitlochry shops before driving home.
The event was a great advert for Perthshire and one that I was sort of proud was happening on my "own turf" so to speak.
Next year I plan to do the event again (aiming for 5 hours) and carry a sackload of fivers to give out to the whining, small minded minority who stood at the bottom of their driveways (fag in hand, usually) with their protest "thumbs down" poster.
They are, so they say, out of pocket because of the event so maybe a fiver will help the pain.0 -
That's my first sportive, the only reason I entered was because of the closed roads.
I drove across from Crianlarich on the Saturday, registered, took my wife for lunch, went to a garden centre, then did the cycle around Loch Rannoch.
Same journey on the Sunday morning to enjoy a unique event and then spend more money in the Pitlochry shops before driving home.
The event was a great advert for Perthshire and one that I was sort of proud was happening on my "own turf" so to speak.
Next year I plan to do the event again (aiming for 5 hours) and carry a sackload of fivers to give out to the whining, small minded minority who stood at the bottom of their driveways (fag in hand, usually) with their protest "thumbs down" poster.
They are, so they say, out of pocket because of the event so maybe a fiver will help the pain.0 -
Never done anything like that before! I don't think I was the rusty old Raleigh but I do have a rusty old M-trax, which is a raleigh brand. It has a new 11-28 though, instead of its old 13-23, for which I am very thankful (especially the top gear, plenty of people were overtaking me on the climbs but not a lot on the descents, you can pedal at 50mph with those kind of ratios).
I loved it, my target was somewhere between 5:00 and 4:30 and I came in at 4:30:47. That'll do fine.
The presence of the recumbent is explained by the fact that he wasn't actually there at all, if you looked at the controls it was clear that it was in fact a Playstation controller, he was really just sitting in his living room doing some virtual pedalling.
As for all the road closure stuff and how it affects businesses, I think that what is being forgotten is that one sunday morning (make that a maximum of 4 hours one sunday morning) does not happen in isolation. It may well be that some businesses lost money that day (although I couldn't help guffawing at the £5000 claim - if there's any evidence to back that up, I'd love to see it). But the thing is, any business, in the long term, relies on marketing and publicity. The whole area has received enormous free publicity - of an overwhelmingly positive nature, except for the grudging and unwelcoming attitude shown by the protesters. Surely any (and I mean any) proprietor with the gumption to run a business at all can find some way to do something a bit different on one sunday a year? I may be wrong, but I've often detected a quite fatalistic attitude in Scottish tourist businesses, where people assume that the punters will just come, or not, and there's nothing much we can do to change it. I spent a year in Australia a while back, and I can't believe they would have seen an event like this as a threat rather than an opportunity to make more money.
Overall, the area must have benefitted economically - and it is this kind of economic benefit that pays for the roads, the bin lorries, everything that makes living in a remote rural area viable in the 21st century. No tourism, no rural idyll - it's a bit unpalatable but it's the truth these days.
As for getting to church, I was really gobsmacked by the sour face on the "I can't get to church" woman. As a committed Christian, I took great delight in the scenery that I believe to be God's creation, even in the human spirit (never mind body) that he created to want to do daft things like spin your legs round 20,000 times or so on a sunday morning. I think I worshipped God no less by choosing to miss church that morning; what about the difference between those who chose to bless the visitors to their area by waving and cheering (thanks to all of you), and those who chose to curse with sour faces and unwelcoming attitudes? "Man looks on the outside, but God looks at the heart"
PS my street's closed for 24 hours for roadwork. I'm quite happy with that because I recognise that in the long run it will benefit me.0
