Etape Caledonia - oh for Gods sake!

giant_man
giant_man Posts: 6,878
I can't believe this rubbish I'm reading here. The only sportive event with closed roads in the whole of the UK, and on a Sunday, and still not good enough. There's even a protest with placards.

They don't understand that roads have to be closed because car drivers are stupid and unpredictable. Unbelievable!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/tay ... 406553.stm
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Comments

  • liversedge
    liversedge Posts: 1,003
    Small minded nimbys. Parishoners cannot get to church? How big is the f&"£ing parish? Can't they walk there?

    If we can manage to close roads in the busiest capitals in the world for a marathon each year - London, Paris, New York etc then surely it's not too much of a hardship to suffer in Perthshire?

    I wonder how many nimbys are involved in this campaign? In my experience these things tends to be lead by 2 or 3 busy-bodies who have nothing going on in their life.

    Very sad.
    --
    Obsessed is just a word elephants use to describe the dedicated. http://markliversedge.blogspot.com
  • sicrow
    sicrow Posts: 791
    Spokesman Peter Hounam said: "Visitors don't really want to come when they know some of the roads are closed.

    The prat there's 5000 of them this morning !!!!
  • nwallace
    nwallace Posts: 1,465
    edited May 2008
    liversedge wrote:
    Small minded nimbys. Parishoners cannot get to church? How big is the f&"£ing parish? Can't they walk there?

    If we can manage to close roads in the busiest capitals in the world for a marathon each year - London, Paris, New York etc then surely it's not too much of a hardship to suffer in Perthshire?

    Do you have any concept of a rural transport network?
    Have you had a look at the map?
    http://www.multimap.com/maps/?hloc=GB|p ... 20PH16%205

    The church in Kinloch Rannoch is probably a CoS so the members of the FCoS has a bit of a problem getting to the Free Kirk in Pitlochry 42km away.

    The people in Tummel Bridge could you may assume park on the road that isn't used (was used on the intermediate route last year) being single track, any parking there blocks the road.

    In a city closing roads is a piece of piss, there always an alternative as the road network density means that its never too far to get to an open road. Despite that as soon as you shut a road the businesses on it start screaming. (One shop owner in Edinburgh has lost 75% of business because of the closures caused by tram works)

    The entire 30km length of road between Pitlochry and Rannoch on the North shore of Loch Tummel will have been closed today. That includes a fairly popular viewpoint for coach tours and a hotel. The hotel probably gets the coach tours for lunch. So that's their Sunday business written off.

    Other closed road events in rural areas in Scotland I can think of are the Jim Clark Rally (Borders) where one house owner is marooned for a whole weekend. And the Tour of Mull where the village of Dervaig is blocked out during the event. (Event run at night so that the locals aren't too badly affected)
    There are other short term closures for running events.

    Edit:
    Duh, the other obvious one would be the 2 Bealach na Ba events, is the new road (Applecross -> Sheildaig) road closed or is it just the old (Pass of the Cattle) road that gets shut?
    Do Nellyphants count?

    Commuter: FCN 9
    Cheapo Roadie: FCN 5
    Off Road: FCN 11

    +1 when I don't get round to shaving for x days
  • nickwill
    nickwill Posts: 2,735
    I'm a regular sportive rider. This commercially run event is a massive own goal for the sportive world. :evil:
    These are quiet roads which do not need closing. If the Fred Whitton can take place on open roads in the Lake District without major traffic issues, then there should be no need for closed roads here.
    I am convinced that roads were closed here in order to justify the massively inflated entrance fee for this event.
    Its not a race, the roads are quiet and as someone who has lived large chunks of my life in rural areas, I'm with the locals on this one. Its notable that the consensus on the Cyclosport forum is very negative towards this event, mainly for the reasons given above!
  • Brian B
    Brian B Posts: 2,071
    Yep - these roads are so quiet anyway - I climbed the road up from Pitlochry to Schiehallien and passed only two cars and a motorbike. Does not justify the road closure.
    Brian B.
  • BigG67
    BigG67 Posts: 582
    Just came back from the event and it is a joy to be able to ride without cars getting in the way. I've done the Glasgow-Edinburgh event that sticks to back roads and had the beejesus scared out of me with cars ducking between groups.

    The roads around here are quiet but they are also narrow, without closure they would never have had 2000 entries.

    Not anyone here specifically - wouldn't know what you think without asking - but I get the feeling a lot of those who don't like the event are the same one's who complain that cyclists don't get the respect they deserve.

    They are also the ones who were annoyed that the Bealach na Ba sold out in 4 hours and you couldn't get entry unless you could get online.

    They also celebrate the way events are held with high esteem on the continent.

    They are commercial sure, but offer more for that and we deserve the choice, one that 2,000 others made today.
  • ellieb
    ellieb Posts: 436
    Yup, there is absolutely no way you could have run this without closing the roads. Some stretches are not really wide enough to get a car past a bike.
    I'm sorry but it really is Nimby-ism at its worst. when it was suggested that one of the church services be moved by an hour on this one day of the year, which would have solved the problem the minister concerned stormed out of the meeting. I don't think compromise was on the agenda.
  • Tom Butcher
    Tom Butcher Posts: 3,830
    Personally if I lived somewhere that had one way in and one way out then being told I couldn't go anywhere by car for 4 hours might be annoying - depending what I had on that day. I mean imagine if you had a relative in hospital you wanted to visit or the kids normally played football and needed to get to a match - it does seem rather unfair to cause that level of disruption for what is a relatively small event and something which could have been run to give a very similar experience on open roads. At the very least raise the minimum speed from 13mph to something like 17-18mph and say when the broom wagon rolls past the roads are open.

    it's a hard life if you don't weaken.
  • liversedge
    liversedge Posts: 1,003
    nwallace wrote:
    liversedge wrote:
    Small minded nimbys. Parishoners cannot get to church? How big is the f&"£ing parish? Can't they walk there?

    If we can manage to close roads in the busiest capitals in the world for a marathon each year - London, Paris, New York etc then surely it's not too much of a hardship to suffer in Perthshire?

    Do you have any concept of a rural transport network?
    Have you had a look at the map?
    http://www.multimap.com/maps/?hloc=GB|p ... 20PH16%205

    The church in Kinloch Rannoch is probably a CoS so the members of the FCoS has a bit of a problem getting to the Free Kirk in Pitlochry 42km away.

    The people in Tummel Bridge could you may assume park on the road that isn't used (was used on the intermediate route last year) being single track, any parking there blocks the road.

    In a city closing roads is a piece of wee-wee, there always an alternative as the road network density means that its never too far to get to an open road. Despite that as soon as you shut a road the businesses on it start screaming. (One shop owner in Edinburgh has lost 75% of business because of the closures caused by tram works)

    The entire 30km length of road between Pitlochry and Rannoch on the North shore of Loch Tummel will have been closed today. That includes a fairly popular viewpoint for coach tours and a hotel. The hotel probably gets the coach tours for lunch. So that's their Sunday business written off.

    Other closed road events in rural areas in Scotland I can think of are the Jim Clark Rally (Borders) where one house owner is marooned for a whole weekend. And the Tour of Mull where the village of Dervaig is blocked out during the event. (Event run at night so that the locals aren't too badly affected)
    There are other short term closures for running events.

    Edit:
    Duh, the other obvious one would be the 2 Bealach na Ba events, is the new road (Applecross -> Sheildaig) road closed or is it just the old (Pass of the Cattle) road that gets shut?

    My my. How did we all manage to survive before the internal combustion engine was invented?

    I guess no-one went to church.
    --
    Obsessed is just a word elephants use to describe the dedicated. http://markliversedge.blogspot.com
  • nickwill
    nickwill Posts: 2,735
    ellieb wrote:
    Yup, there is absolutely no way you could have run this without closing the roads. Some stretches are not really wide enough to get a car past a bike.
    I'm sorry but it really is Nimby-ism at its worst. when it was suggested that one of the church services be moved by an hour on this one day of the year, which would have solved the problem the minister concerned stormed out of the meeting. I don't think compromise was on the agenda.

    Sorry, but the Fred Whitton runs over Hardknott and Wrynose which have sections that are almost less than single track, all this and 30% climbs as well. All this and in the heart of the Lake District during the tourist season! Admittedly they only(!) have 1000 entries, but the roads really are more extreme, with a lot more traffic.
    The same could be said for most of the sportives that I have ridden. This is the sort of event that could really get a bandwagon rolling against sportives. We rely on goodwill and cooperation with local communities. Without this a section of the sport that I and many other people really enjoy could come under threat.
  • Tom Butcher
    Tom Butcher Posts: 3,830
    liversedge wrote:
    My my. How did we all manage to survive before the internal combustion engine was invented?

    I guess no-one went to church.

    You might equally ask how the rest of us manage to enjoy a blast in the countryside without the roads being closed to traffic.

    it's a hard life if you don't weaken.
  • pneumatic
    pneumatic Posts: 1,989
    Well if I lived there, I would definitely have missed church to have the chance to come down off Schiehallion at full blast without any fear of meeting a tractor coming up the other way. It was brilliant! On most parts of the course, even the occasional car would have caused mayhem and injury.

    Of course it was inconvenient to the local people. So was the Tour when it went through Kent last year but the village I stayed in just made the most of it and joined in the fun.

    I gave up on organised religion some years ago because I just got fed up with the number of mean-spirited people I encountered. This morning was just another example.

    It was utterly fantastic this morning around there and I reckon about 1950 more people enjoyed it than there ever would have been on a normal Sunday between 6am and noon.


    Fast and Bulbous
    Peregrinations
    Eddingtons: 80 (Metric); 60 (Imperial)

  • liversedge
    liversedge Posts: 1,003
    liversedge wrote:
    My my. How did we all manage to survive before the internal combustion engine was invented?

    I guess no-one went to church.

    You might equally ask how the rest of us manage to enjoy a blast in the countryside without the roads being closed to traffic.

    Your argument is conflated. I don't often go blasting around the countryside in a mass start event with 2,500 other riders. And yes some other UK sportives would benefit from closed roads.
    --
    Obsessed is just a word elephants use to describe the dedicated. http://markliversedge.blogspot.com
  • nickwill
    nickwill Posts: 2,735
    liversedge wrote:
    liversedge wrote:
    My my. How did we all manage to survive before the internal combustion engine was invented?

    I guess no-one went to church.

    You might equally ask how the rest of us manage to enjoy a blast in the countryside without the roads being closed to traffic.

    Your argument is conflated. I don't often go blasting around the countryside in a mass start event with 2,500 other riders. And yes some other UK sportives would benefit from closed roads.
    Then, sadly, in the real world, they wouldn't happen!
  • pneumatic
    pneumatic Posts: 1,989
    edited May 2008
    "Then, sadly, in the real world, they wouldn't happen!"

    France is the real world.

    So is Italy

    This morning, for a couple of hours, Scotland joined them.


    Fast and Bulbous
    Peregrinations
    Eddingtons: 80 (Metric); 60 (Imperial)

  • gavintc
    gavintc Posts: 3,009
    Just got back from the event, it was my best cycling experience - bar none. The roads, scenery stunning, but above all no nervous tension waiting for the prat in the car to overtake and squeeze. Most locals I passed were cheering - very uplifting. Excellent event, if the nimbys have not outlawed it next year, I can thoroughly recommend.
  • ellieb
    ellieb Posts: 436
    I'll second the above. It was a fantastic experience. & I cycled 81 miles without one single incident or near incident or worrying moment with a car.
  • andy_wrx
    andy_wrx Posts: 3,396
    It's funny, but my most scary moments on the sportives I've done haven't been with cars, but with other cyclists who have been treating it as a race
    - darting about in the road with no thought that there might be someone about to overtake them, chainganging on the wrong side of the road round blind bends, diving down descents at with no regard for there being gravel or wet patches, etc...

    I don't know if closed-roads would improve this or make it worse.
  • McD
    McD Posts: 23
    Me too - it was a top event. I'd recomend all those moaning about it to give it a try, so at least they'll know what they're missing.
    _-= The other \'bent rider on Jersey =-_
  • wakemalcolm
    wakemalcolm Posts: 748
    In translated the signs:
    Event cyclists yes, closed roads no, as
    Cyclists money, yes please, any inconvenience for the priveledge, no thanks.

    Very professionally run event, the jury's still out on the route (especially the completely pointless Fortingall loop) and I've never done an event where everyone's just gunned it from the start like that.

    Hopefully lining up some type 2 enjoyment tomorrow.
    ================================
    Cake is just weakness entering the body
  • gavintc
    gavintc Posts: 3,009
    In translated the signs:
    Event cyclists yes, closed roads no, as
    Cyclists money, yes please, any inconvenience for the priveledge, no thanks.

    Very professionally run event, the jury's still out on the route (especially the completely pointless Fortingall loop) and I've never done an event where everyone's just gunned it from the start like that.

    Hopefully lining up some type 2 enjoyment tomorrow.

    I agree, it was a fast event. It took me about 10-15 miles to identify a group traveling at a similar speed and I managed to travel the majority of the way round sharing the pain in a number of different groups.
  • nwallace
    nwallace Posts: 1,465
    liversedge wrote:
    My my. How did we all manage to survive before the internal combustion engine was invented?
    I guess no-one went to church.

    Quite differently, commuting to work in Perth or Pitlochry wouldn't have existed, nor would the hotels depending on coachloads and passing trade, in fact the hotels didn't exist because tourism in these areas didn't exist. The sabbath involved a walk to the local mission hall or church of which each village would have had at least one of, a walk back then no further work than perhaps heating the pot for tea.
    Those who lived out there either had a small holding along side some other job such as vet or blacksmith, or they worked on the estate. Absolute no need to travel anywhere, and most didn't.
    pneumatic wrote:
    Well if I lived there, I would definitely have missed church to

    You forget, to some people missing church while physically capable to attend is to be in league with the de'il
    I mean imagine if you had a relative in hospital you wanted to visit
    Ninewells visiting times are 1500 to 2000, probably the same at PRI. And yes that is how far away the nearest hospitals are.
    kids normally played football and needed to get to a match
    More likely, some teams operate a miss a match and your at the back of the list policy to deal with demand.

    One of the line managers at my work plays for a "Perth" rugby team, despite the distance some of the players are from Pitlochry and Beyond. though apparently there was once a Pitlochry team, couldn't' get a full squad.

    I did the intermediate route last year and enjoyed it other than struggling up the hills :oops:

    The church issue is being played very deliberately, by the protestors.
    However many of the businesses on the route will have seen no benefit from event while Pitlochry itself will have benefited massively.

    Now if you will turn your hymn sheets to no. 5, North East Fife Vs Dunfermline.....

    I suspect that last bit will be lost on everyone
    Do Nellyphants count?

    Commuter: FCN 9
    Cheapo Roadie: FCN 5
    Off Road: FCN 11

    +1 when I don't get round to shaving for x days
  • cframe
    cframe Posts: 171
    Just echoing the other sentiments that this was one of the best days cycling I've ever had!

    First ever sportive, only had my racer about 4-6 weeks and had an absolute blast!

    If anyone from the group that caught us up coming out of Fortingall and then gave us a tow along past Castle Menzies is reading this - cheers! :)
    How's that for a slice of fried gold?
  • BillR1
    BillR1 Posts: 271
    Best cycling day of my life, fast and furious to the end. The locals made the day, coming out in force to cheer us all on, what a blast.

    Surely they could attend the evening service at the church !!!

    I will be back next year definately it was brilliant.

    CFrame, was one of the group on a white cervelo?

    Rgds, BillR1
  • cframe
    cframe Posts: 171
    BillR1 I don't think so there was a pack of about 20 odd folk. There were a few Specializeds in there and the odd Giant as well I think but other than that I was mostly too busy trying to watch where everyone was going down those narrow tracks!
    How's that for a slice of fried gold?
  • nwallace
    nwallace Posts: 1,465
    BillR1 wrote:
    Surely they could attend the evening service at the church !!!

    Evening service?

    Using an assumption based on Scottish demographics

    http://www.pitlochrychurchofscotland.org.uk/
    1030 service

    Rannoch is in Fortingal Parish
    http://www.breadalbane.com/places/church.htm
    10.15am weekly at Fortingall Church
    11.30am weekly at Kenmore Kirk
    Glen Lyon Church, Innerwick, at 9.15am every second week

    Don't think I have ever seen a notice on a Presbeterian Church for Evening Service.

    Pitlochry Baptist does appear to have some form of evening meeting though.
    Do Nellyphants count?

    Commuter: FCN 9
    Cheapo Roadie: FCN 5
    Off Road: FCN 11

    +1 when I don't get round to shaving for x days
  • gavintc
    gavintc Posts: 3,009
    BillR1 wrote:
    Best cycling day of my life, fast and furious to the end. The locals made the day, coming out in force to cheer us all on, what a blast.

    Surely they could attend the evening service at the church !!!

    I will be back next year definately it was brilliant.

    CFrame, was one of the group on a white cervelo?

    Rgds, BillR1

    I saw a white Cervelo R3 with the rider stopped for a quick break at the foot of Schiehallion. It was the first outing for my Cervelo RS - great bike. Much faster than my old Bianchi.

    I chatted to a fair number of locals - admittedly the ones I will have met were in the service industry and were potentially gaining from the event. However, all were in favour of the event. A few were a little disgruntled at being locked in to their village.
  • KeithG
    KeithG Posts: 1,010
    I lve in the area and I can absolutely say without hesitation, the vast majority of rural N Perthshire support the event. For every peevish curmudgeon in Aberfeldy and environs, there are 2 cheerful hoteliers and residents in Pitlochry who support it.
    It's really just a local squabble between 2 small towns.
    This campaign does not damage the cause of Sportives or cycling.
    Closing a road for 3 hours on one day iout of the year is not unreasonable for the safety and enjoyment (and profit) of thousands.
  • liversedge
    liversedge Posts: 1,003
    nwallace wrote:
    BillR1 wrote:
    Surely they could attend the evening service at the church !!!
    Don't think I have ever seen a notice on a Presbeterian Church for Evening Service.
    Flexible lot with open minds then. BTW, You seem awfully informed, Do you know how many people were affected yesterday?

    10? 100? 1000? 5000?

    For such stone aged thinkers they seem awfully dependent on 20th century technology.

    I'll leave it at that since this could easily degenerate into a flame war about the waste of money and effort spent in pointless worship that could be used to benefit the fellowship and common man, If you reply you can have the last word - I know you want it.
    --
    Obsessed is just a word elephants use to describe the dedicated. http://markliversedge.blogspot.com
  • rabk
    rabk Posts: 182
    edited May 2008
    KeithG wrote:
    I lve in the area and I can absolutely say without hesitation, the vast majority of rural N Perthshire support the event. For every peevish curmudgeon in Aberfeldy and environs, there are 2 cheerful hoteliers and residents in Pitlochry who support it.
    It's really just a local squabble between 2 small towns.
    This campaign does not damage the cause of Sportives or cycling.
    Closing a road for 3 hours on one day iout of the year is not unreasonable for the safety and enjoyment (and profit) of thousands.

    The bit in bold is spot on, last year I spoke to a local, (I was renting her chalet) and she told me this was the big problem, there is a bit of rivalry/dislike between inhabitants of Aberfeldy and Pitlochry and always has been and this is manifesting itself in the complaints about this event.

    As for the event itself, it rocks, whingers take note - you do not know anything about this event unless you have actually done it.

    Last year I came away thinking it was the best cycling feeling ever and nothing that has happened this year has changed that view.

    For a cycling experience this is second to none (if you like to go fast that is)

    Although it is a sportive, it is not like any other I have done, massive groups of cyclists travelling at 20 - 24 mph on the long flat straights.

    This is why the roads need to be closed, there is no room for cars except for perhaps on the Weem to Logierait section where perhaps half of the road could be coned off, but this stretch is perhaps 10 miles at most and there is an alternative route running parallel through Aberfeldy.

    Personally, I am quite pleased with my time, shaved exactly 4 minutes off from last year :D

    Well done to all who entered and completed