Training for Steep Hills

DaveyL

Which raises another question: given that many of the people who will be riding Hardknott in the FWC will be doing so at walking pace, is it better (in terms of your overall time for the event) to walk it or ride it? Hint: walking it may save some energy for the last climb.

mozwyn69

DaveyL wrote:

Which raises another question: given that many of the people who will be riding Hardknott in the FWC will be doing so at walking pace, is it better (in terms of your overall time for the event) to walk it or ride it? Hint: walking it may save some energy for the last climb.

THe first year I had to walk the whole thing . It was a nightmare and I had to take to cutting the bends and walking off road just to get some traction. Cycled up it last year and intend getting up again it this year. You wil save a few min's by cyling and the buzz gained will ensure you will also get up Wrynose which is not as hard but does have one insanely steep bit.
The few miles leading up to Hardknott are as I recall flatish. Take these slowly and recover as much as you can and you may just have a chance. I swear facing Hardknott on the Fred is more daunting than Alpe Du Huez at the end of the Marmotte.

Tom Butcher

I wouldn't recommend walking hardknott if you can ride it because:
- walking pace up Hardknott pushing a bike is slower than you might think - you will lose substantial amounts of time.
- if you can get up Hardknott then why not - you aren't going to be first home but at least you can say you rode the whole thing - if you don't want to give it a go then why enter in the first place?
- Wrynose isn't actually that hard except it comes after 100+ miles and Hardknott - but if you can ride up Hardknott it will be a breeze - after that you have 10 rolling miles home and most people seem to find another gear at the though finishing - in other words you may as well give Hardknott all you have left.

Anonymous

mozwyn69 wrote:

DaveyL wrote:

Which raises another question: given that many of the people who will be riding Hardknott in the FWC will be doing so at walking pace, is it better (in terms of your overall time for the event) to walk it or ride it? Hint: walking it may save some energy for the last climb.

. I swear facing Hardknott on the Fred is more daunting than Alpe Du Huez at the end of the Marmotte.

I know what you mean! I think the difference is that Alpe De Huez is can be ridden with very low gears and you can just spin...whereas on hardknott theres no spinning...its at the very edge of ability and just getting the pedal round is an acheivemenet..

DaveyL

If it's just a question of getting up the hill, then of course Hardknott is harder than Alpe d'Huez. AdH requires a much lower wattage to just keep the pedals turning; it's of much less consequence that the AdH climb is substantially longer given the comparative steepness of the two.

Ken Night

mozwyn69 wrote:

. I swear facing Hardknott on the Fred is more daunting than Alpe Du Huez at the end of the Marmotte.

Having done both last year, I can can say Alpe D'Huez was far more painful, I really had nothing left, and it was dreadfully hot. Many people walked

However, as Richyboy says, you can barely get up Hardknott. Many people walked

I was disappointed to miss Elite in the Fred by 14 mins..but got gold in the Marmotte, so which is harder? Can a comparison really be valid?

Anonymous

Ken Night wrote:

mozwyn69 wrote:

. I swear facing Hardknott on the Fred is more daunting than Alpe Du Huez at the end of the Marmotte.

Having done both last year, I can can say Alpe D'Huez was far more painful, I really had nothing left, and it was dreadfully hot. Many people walked

However, as Richyboy says, you can barely get up Hardknott. Many people walked

I was disappointed to miss Elite in the Fred by 14 mins..but got gold in the Marmotte, so which is harder? Can a comparison really be valid?

Absolutely agree, I've never did the Marmotte, I've did all the climbs associated but stringing them together on one mother of a ride is something else...

I actually do get pissed off with lads reckoning ADHuez is a fairly easy ride...its not! Its an absolute brute of a climb...the 1st 5 switchbacks had me breathing out another orifice...and I really wouldnt fancy it after the Glandon,telegraphe,Galibier...in fact its maybe too tough for me..to be truthful.

But hitting Hardknott on the FWC is unsurpassable...Hardknott is by a mile a more incredible climb for me...You can see the entire climb from a distance and it defies beleif!,.I've cycled up a good few areas but i'm afraid my 1st experience of hardknott is a lifelong memory, its the scariest climb ive ever did, I'm so scared of this its unbeleivable, even when I summited Ventoux or Teide i did think to myself "rather this than hardknott",
Hardknott is legend in my books, but I concur a very different challenge to the Marmotte...

ut_och_cykla

At the risk of repeating myself - with practice you can cycle up hills at 5km/h ( Mebbe even 4!), but walking at this pace uphill in cycling shoes on tarmac pushing your bike will take some doing. If you haven't quite got the fitness or body composition having the right gears wil make all the difference. Long distance challenges be they HArdknott (which as I remember was scary in a car!) or Marmotte are as much about pacing than anything else and you need low enough gears to be able to stay on top of things.

32:30 is lovely!!

John C.

Please stop, This is my first FW and you are scaring the Hell out of me. I have an old GS1000 in the garage am I allowed to do it on that ?
I had thought about coming over to the lakes to try a few of the little hills out for size, but as I enjoyed riding the Etape du Dales blind I think that is what I'm going to do.
By the way Rich my training includes Boltby the Ford and Rievaulx on a 40 lb loaded hack with 28/21 gearing ,

Anonymous

John C. wrote:

Please stop, This is my first FW and you are scaring the Hell out of me. I have an old GS1000 in the garage am I allowed to do it on that ?
I had thought about coming over to the lakes to try a few of the little hills out for size, but as I enjoyed riding the Etape du Dales blind I think that is what I'm going to do.
By the way Rich my training includes Boltby the Ford and Rievaulx on a 40 lb loaded hack with 28/21 gearing ,

Hi John, yes you are indeed very used to traumatic hills, they don't get any steeper than in the NY Moors...and your not stupid or anything, you know what gears are needed for such efforts, and the Etape Du dales is one tough mother of a ride, can't see the FWC being too much tougher, but the last climb on the EdDs at 100mile is Halton Gill? and thats what seperates the FWC, I usually start thinking about the Brute just as i'm summiting Cold Fell, and it aint nice thoughts

For the fella who started this thread have a wee look at these...scroll through them, many of hardknott...

http://www.fredwhittonchallenge.org.uk/gallery.html


I think either a triple or a MTB Cassette on the back of the Compact is best chance of success, although I've been pretty successfull with my previous efforts ascending this I still say my chance on the FWC of getting up all the way is 60/40? Its too damn hard to be cocky with.

John C.

RICHYBOYcp wrote:

John C. wrote:

Please stop, This is my first FW and you are scaring the Hell out of me. I have an old GS1000 in the garage am I allowed to do it on that ?
I had thought about coming over to the lakes to try a few of the little hills out for size, but as I enjoyed riding the Etape du Dales blind I think that is what I'm going to do.
By the way Rich my training includes Boltby the Ford and Rievaulx on a 40 lb loaded hack with 28/21 gearing ,

Hi John, yes you are indeed very used to traumatic hills, they don't get any steeper than in the NY Moors...and your not stupid or anything, you know what gears are needed for such efforts, and the Etape Du dales is one tough mother of a ride, can't see the FWC being too much tougher, but the last climb on the EdDs at 100mile is Halton Gill? and thats what seperates the FWC, I usually start thinking about the Brute just as i'm summiting Cold Fell, and it aint nice thoughts

For the fella who started this thread have a wee look at these...scroll through them, many of hardknott...

http://www.fredwhittonchallenge.org.uk/gallery.html


I think either a triple or a MTB Cassette on the back of the Compact is best chance of success, although I've been pretty successful with my previous efforts ascending this I still say my chance on the FWC of getting up all the way is 60/40? Its too damn hard to be cocky with.

I may be training on 28/21 but my bail out for Hardknott on The Fred will be something like 28/32 or 26/30. Just because a manufacturer puts high gearing on it's road bike doesnt mean you have to stick with it. Last year I used a 12-25 road cassette took out the 23 and put a 32 as a bottom gear. giving a cassette with 12-13-15-17-19- 21-25-32. The result was a nice reasonably tight cassette for the flat but I had big bail out gears for the hills late on in the day. I swapped my rear mech for a Deore XT and everything worked perfectly. No reason why you couldn't do this with 9 speed although you may have problems with the spacing with 10 speed

Ken Night

Campag user here, so 34/29 for me-about 32"

Some guys I was with were running MtB cassettes with long arm mechs-very sensible and easy to do IMHO, giving gearing of 39/32-about 33"

Dunno what you do about the 11 on most of the MtB cassettes available

John C.

Dunno what you do about the 11 on most of the MtB cassettes available[/quote]

Use it on the long down hills

Sorry , I don't see what the problem is.

Ken Night

Not a problem as such- 130" at 53/11

You'd hardly use it, and it'd much better to have a "tight" cassette as you say, with more useable gears

John C.

I agree you'll hardly use it which is why I build my own starting with a 12 but for those who can't do this using a straight forward MTB cassette is an option

normanp

John C - great idea swapping sprockets. How about for 10 speed Shimano - is this possible? I have a long arm mech so capacity is not a problem. Maybe I could dismantle a cassette & replace a few sprockets? My ideal would be 13-29 (front is 30/39/52).

skavanagh.bikeradar

I'm going to have to get up Hardknott in 30x25. Three years ago I didn't get up it on 30x27, cracked at crazy hairpin quite high up it must be 35% I fell off in front of a group of spectators. Lovely. I also fell off at the bottom as the gradient kicked in and the bloke in front zigged, I zagged and went off the road and fell off. This time I'm intending to not fall off at all, other than that anything is a bonus.

As others have said part of the problem is you are tired and as you approach you can see it in the distance and it looks impossible. This is not a notion dispelled when you reach the bottom of it.

Wrynose isn't as bad, but I was shot away and had to walk the top bit. You've got the FWC beaten when you get over the top of Wrynose. Although I did see a Honister92 rider cramp up badly on the rise out of little langdale to the Coniston - Ambleside road.

It's a hard event.

redddraggon

I nearly came off tackling a steep hill (well not really) today. It was a section of road that I frequent on the route to my sisters, it's only a 200m or so long descent, but I can get from 20Kmph at the top to 50kmph within seconds, so it's always a pretty scary descent. I hadn't really thought about it's steepness as I'd only ridden down it, not up it.

Today I decided go back that way, no gearing would have helped, I had to keep my weight forward to prevent me falling back (really), so my back wheel kept slipping giving me no traction. I think the short section must be at least 50% - anyway of dealing with that? This time I resorted to walking.

oldwelshman

redddraggon wrote:

I nearly came off tackling a steep hill (well not really) today. It was a section of road that I frequent on the route to my sisters, it's only a 200m or so long descent, but I can get from 20Kmph at the top to 50kmph within seconds, so it's always a pretty scary descent. I hadn't really thought about it's steepness as I'd only ridden down it, not up it.

Today I decided go back that way, no gearing would have helped, I had to keep my weight forward to prevent me falling back (really), so my back wheel kept slipping giving me no traction. I think the short section must be at least 50% - anyway of dealing with that? This time I resorted to walking.

50% is not possible for a road I worked in a coal face which was 50% i.e. 1:1 and it was like looking skywards!! The steepest road in the world in N.Zealand is only 38% I think and seen several posts on here about it, though I have also seen the Harlech road sign showing 40%. I have been on many welsh climbs in villages connecting streets that are probabkly 35% and have the same as you describe, weight has to be forward, but then not too far to loose traction, its all about balance
There is a pic of such a climb in my link .

nasahapley

oldwelshman wrote:

50% is not possible for a road I worked in a coal face which was 50% i.e. 1:1 and it was like looking skywards!!

Apologies in advance for being a terrible pedant , but...

A 50% gradient = 1:2, = a bit over 26 degrees.
1:1 is 100%, or 45 degrees.

A bit academic really, since I don't suppose you'd have much chance of cycling up a 50% grade for more than a few metres anyway!

Check out this link for a road that's marked as 45% in places:
http://ciclismo.sitiasp.it/altimetria.aspx?id=6779 :shock:

popette

John C. wrote:

RICHYBOYcp wrote:

John C. wrote:

I may be training on 28/21 but my bail out for Hardknott on The Fred will be something like 28/32 or 26/30. Just because a manufacturer puts high gearing on it's road bike doesnt mean you have to stick with it. Last year I used a 12-25 road cassette took out the 23 and put a 32 as a bottom gear. giving a cassette with 12-13-15-17-19- 21-25-32. The result was a nice reasonably tight cassette for the flat but I had big bail out gears for the hills late on in the day. I swapped my rear mech for a Deore XT and everything worked perfectly. No reason why you couldn't do this with 9 speed although you may have problems with the spacing with 10 speed

Can you just put anything you like on the back? for example if you had a compact 50/34 on the front, could I ask my bike shop to put either a 32 or 34 on the back as a bale out gear? Would I need to change the chain or any other parts? I haven't a clue what is possible in terms of gearing and it sounds like you know what you're on about

Respect to anyone doing the FWC - I can feel my legs hurting and lungs burning just reading the descriptions of some of the big hills.

Tom Butcher

You'll need a longer chain to reach round the bigger sprocket - and you'll need a long cage mech to handle it too. But a cheap mech and chain isn' t that expensive - I'd consider it if I was doing FWC again.

Tom Butcher

I think that's all you'd need but there are experts on here who may be able to add to that.

Ken Night

Poppette

I don't think many of these guys even went as far as changing the chain-OK provided you don't use big/big

Ken Night wrote:

Some guys I was with were running MtB cassettes with long arm mechs-very sensible and easy to do IMHO, giving gearing of 39/32-about 33"

34/27 should be plenty for your Etape effort this year, and many of the bikes you'll be looking at will have that gearing. It's so easy to change to a MtB cassette, you can be confident in the bike you choose (it pains me to say it, but you'll have to choose Shimano gears if you want to keep it simple )

Mike Willcox

I can't see the point of all this I'm afraid.

I think i'll introduce a new challenge called the Eiger ultimate.

Unfortunately this will be one where even the lowest of the lowest gear won't be low enough as it involves climbing the north face of the Eiger so you will be carrying your bike strapped to your back. That'll sort out the men from the boys eh?

oldwelshman

nasahapley wrote:

oldwelshman wrote:

50% is not possible for a road I worked in a coal face which was 50% i.e. 1:1 and it was like looking skywards!!

Apologies in advance for being a terrible pedant , but...

A 50% gradient = 1:2, = a bit over 26 degrees.
1:1 is 100%, or 45 degrees.

A bit academic really, since I don't suppose you'd have much chance of cycling up a 50% grade for more than a few metres anyway!

Check out this link for a road that's marked as 45% in places:
http://ciclismo.sitiasp.it/altimetria.aspx?id=6779 :shock:

You would never guess I graduated in engineering Typed my [post too fast !!!
ok 45 degrees is 100% as it is 1:1 and that was what I worked in That was very difficult to walk up and we used to do it on hands sort of climbing!!
So far I have climbed on roads up to 33% and probably just over, but not yet even seen a road of 45% let alone climbed it.
By the way, 1:2 means 0.5 so if you do trigonometry tan theta = opp/adj = 1/2 =0.5 so anlge theta = 26.565 degress, so as you state is just over 26 degrees 8)

Mike, I agree, if you put too low a gear it becomes more a balancing exercise going about 3km/hr and quicker and easier to get off and walk 8)

I am off to measure the gradient of my staircase and see what gear I need for that!!

chill888

it's very steep but not at all long.

There have been two good pieces of advice:

1) Train for it and practice on some hills

2) Get a proper bracket. It's just no fun without a nice granny. You will likely walk otherwise

Good luck, remember to enjoy the challenge.

chill888

degress and percent are not the same thing. Keep it simple with percent and forget trigonometry

I don't know the climb but really doubt there are sections at 33% - at least for long.

Still 15% average is a bitch.

tymbouk

Lol,
Bunch of nancy boys,
just stick in in the big ring and drive the pain out yer legs.

DaveyL

There are. As Richyboy has said a few times, it needs to be seen to be believed. I guarantee there are 30-35% sections that are sustained for 10s, if not 100s of metres.