Training for Steep Hills

urban_winter

I'm signed up for the Frank Whitton challenge. My aim is simply to finish and not to walk. I'll be riding a compact chainset - so lowest gear will be 34x27. I am moderately fit but heavy (93kg) and not good at hills. I live in Wimbledon so I'm a bit short of long 1:4 hills on which to practice.

What kind of specific training is going to help me to get up the hills?

My thoughts so far:
- lots of hill repeats on smaller hills
- build leg strength by climbing in much higher gears than usual
- lose as much weight as possible before the event

Ideas?

U.

mozwyn69

There is little comparable to the sight of Hardknott Pass looming up ahead of you especially when You've cycled nearly 100 miles already. I got up up okay on 34/27 last year so you should be ok with those gears . Not sure if there is much you can do to replicate the feeling other than find the steepest hill you can and do some laps on it preferably with leaden legs after a very long ride. You can take a bit of respite for a second or two in the corners of the hairpins, otherwise its just a case of grinding away and hoping your legs don't cramp up. I seem to remember going up only very slightly quicker than the walkers.Take some cleat covers in case you have to resort to shanks pony as it will be a nighmare with cleats.

cervelorider

urban_winter wrote:

I'm signed up for the Frank Whitton challenge. My aim is simply to finish and not to walk. I'll be riding a compact chainset - so lowest gear will be 34x27. I am moderately fit but heavy (93kg) and not good at hills. I live in Wimbledon so I'm a bit short of long 1:4 hills on which to practice.

What kind of specific training is going to help me to get up the hills?

My thoughts so far:
- lots of hill repeats on smaller hills
- build leg strength by climbing in much higher gears than usual
- lose as much weight as possible before the event

Ideas?

U.

A few miles SW of wimbledon, between Dorking and Guildford is some good terrain to prepare you for this kind of event. Not quite 1:4 but pretty close.
I would say that a regular weekly ride into these hills for some 2-3hr sessions should at least make you feel more confident about the challenge ahead.
Anything you can do to bring you weight down will make climbing hills easier.
Hills that come to mind..................
The road to Coldharbour from Dorking,
All the roads up to Ranmore Common,
Barhatch Lane
Coombe Bottom (road from Shere to East Clandon)

There's more but hopefully someone else will know their names.
Hope this helps.

DaveyL

You're in for a shock if you think it is 1 in 4... It's more like 30%, with a couple of sections which I swear are 33-35%. Even to be doing 3.5 - 4 mph, a rider of your weight will need to be able to hold about 475 W for those gradients. It's not going to be easy. You can work it out more exactly on analyticcycling.com

ut_och_cykla

If you're a heavy chap and have doubts about hills, practice (on hills as repeats or against the wind in bigger gears) and losing some weight will help a lot - with your confidence in being able to keep going if nothing else.
However as a somewhat chubby girly in her late 40's I must suggest you reconsider your gears and get as low as you can. With practice you can cycle at a brisk walking pace (but with less effort than walking) and avoid the 'shame' of getting off and walking.
I got up Alpe DHuez last year with a long but not too murderous effort using a 32/32 combination (MTB triple on road bike). HAving the right gears allows you to maintain a nice rhythm and keep going even when you're tired.
Have fun...

urban_winter

I've considered a triple but it would cost me about £300 to convert (chainset, shifter, rear mech) and a compact suits me for all the rest of my riding (normal UK sportives). I can ride up pretty much anything on my MTB so I know the value of super-low gears.

Lots of riding in the Surrey Hills sounds like the best plan.

U.

P.S. I have no idea who Frank Whitton is. I'm guessing he may be Fred's heavier little brother.

Toks

urban_winter wrote:

I'm signed up for the Frank Whitton challenge. My aim is simply to finish and not to walk. I'll be riding a compact chainset - so lowest gear will be 34x27. I am moderately fit but heavy (93kg) and not good at hills. I live in Wimbledon so I'm a bit short of long 1:4 hills on which to practice.

What kind of specific training is going to help me to get up the hills?

Mate you need to look at the bigger picture. On a long hilly ride lie the Freddy W the key to performing well in that event is sustainable power output. In white van man language you need to get "really bloody fit". Increasing both your aerobic fitness via short 3-6minute efforts will definitely help but long term your ability to ride welll will be determined by your threshold power.

You can improve TP with endurance type rides 3-5hours, tempo/sweet spot (1-2 hours - greater intensity than your endurance type rides) or more specifically the famous 2 x 20's which really dial in your threshold power and would be race pace or close to in intensity. All this will take time of course and you'll need to ride frequently and consistently over the next 3/4 months.

My thoughts so far:
- lots of hill repeats on smaller hills

Yes but this type of training can be really draining mentally and physically I'd leave it till the last six weeks

- build leg strength by climbing in much higher gears than usual

Forget it, leg strength ain't the key factor in endurance cycling events. Just ride at an appropraite intensity given the duration

- lose as much weight as possible before the event

Well of course :oops:

Toks

urban_winter wrote:

I'm signed up for the Frank Whitton challenge. My aim is simply to finish and not to walk. I'll be riding a compact chainset - so lowest gear will be 34x27. I am moderately fit but heavy (93kg) and not good at hills. I live in Wimbledon so I'm a bit short of long 1:4 hills on which to practice.

What kind of specific training is going to help me to get up the hills?

Mate you need to look at the bigger picture. On a long hilly ride lie the Freddy W the key to performing well in that event is sustainable power output. In white van man language you need to get "really bloody fit". Increasing both your aerobic fitness via short 3-6minute efforts will definitely help but long term your ability to ride welll will be determined by your threshold power.

You can improve TP with endurance type rides 3-5hours, tempo/sweet spot (1-2 hours - greater intensity than your endurance type rides) or more specifically the famous 2 x 20's which really dial in your threshold power and would be race pace or close to in intensity. All this will take time of course and you'll need to ride frequently and consistently over the next 3/4 months.

My thoughts so far:
- lots of hill repeats on smaller hills

Yes but this type of training can be really draining mentally and physically I'd leave it till the last six weeks

- build leg strength by climbing in much higher gears than usual

Forget it, leg strength ain't the key factor in endurance cycling events. Just ride at an appropraite intensity given the duration

- lose as much weight as possible before the event

Well of course :oops:

fidbod

Hi UW.

I second Cervelorider's suggestion for hitting the surrey hills. if you have a look at this circuit there are most of the climbs he talks about

http://www.bikely.com/maps/bike-path/St ... me-circuit

this is a bitch of a circuit. what I like to think of as the homeward leg kills me. Once you have left boxhill and are on the A25 it is nothing by lots of undulating climbs on tired legs with a grand finale of at seriously steep climb between limpsfield and Warlingham - see 101 km on the elevation profile.

This is also a shorter version of the route without the A25 hell

http://www.gpsies.com/map.do?fileId=wdzxkndniwmclzvk

If you want a guide one weekend pm me.

Brian B

I am at 89kgs so just lighter than you Urban. I got up Hardknott in last years Fred but I was using a 30*27 gear and was glad for it. If I were you I would really make the effort to go to the Lakes and try out some the worst it has to offer before the Fred - Hardknott just has to be seen and ridden to belive it. I have done many Hor catergorie climbs in France and none of them strike fear into me like Hardknott does.

I am doing the FWC again this year and for the next few months I am upping my milage and doing lots of repetive hill training and basically just getting in the miles. I am going to do a lot of 80-100 miles very hilly routes in the last 6 weeks before the event and one slightly easier sportive just before it to hone the fitness.

Goodluck - Its a hard but a great day out.

nasahapley

I'll second everything that Brian just said. I'm fairly heavy (85kgs) - and for the Fred I'm definitely going to lower my bottom gear to 30x27 from 30x25. I've only ever had to go down to the 23 so far on nasty climbs (the likes of Honister and Park Rash), but then I've never tried them after 100 hilly miles! And I'm going to see just how bad Hardknott is next weekend...

dennisn

TA Specialties sells a 33 tooth front compact chainring, at least they used to.
Every little bit helps. This is a 110 bolt circle and is Shimano, FSA compatable.
Not sure about Campy's compact bolt circle.

Dennis Noward

Brian B

[quote="nasahapley"(the likes of Honister and Park Rash), but then I've never tried them after 100 hilly miles! And I'm going to see just how bad Hardknott is next weekend...[/quote]

Funny how everybody mentions Hardknott and Honister when talking about the Lakes - but not surprising as they are really bad. Wrynose from the opposite way from the Fred is also really(really) difficult.

Park Rash - Thats another real killer climb. That gradient at the bottom is surely even steeper for the first 50 yards than Hardknott but luckily it evens out to 20% after that

cervelorider

Brian B wrote:

[quote="nasahapley"(the likes of Honister and Park Rash), but then I've never tried them after 100 hilly miles! And I'm going to see just how bad Hardknott is next weekend...

Funny how everybody mentions Hardknott and Honister when talking about the Lakes - but not surprising as they are really bad. Wrynose from the opposite way from the Fred is also really(really) difficult.

Park Rash - Thats another real killer climb. That gradient at the bottom is surely even steeper for the first 50 yards than Hardknott but luckily it evens out to 20% after that [/quote]

Out of interest, how long does it take you to climb the hardknott pass, or more simply what is the distance from bottom to top?

synchronicity

I just had a look on google earth at hardnott pass...
What's the actual ascent in metres? Length?
Anyone got an altitude profile to share?

popette

hi,
not sure which of these is the approach used in the FWC
http://www.climbbybike.com/climb.asp?Co ... ainID=7382
http://www.climbbybike.com/climb.asp?Co ... ainID=7381
The analyticcycing site listed earlier in the thread is freaking me out. :shock: :shock: :shock:

urban_winter

The analyticcycing site listed earlier in the thread is freaking me out.

You and me both. Apparently, to ride up a 1:4 slope at just 4 mph I need to produce something like 450 W. Should I give up now?

U.

popette

urban_winter wrote:

The analyticcycing site listed earlier in the thread is freaking me out.

You and me both. Apparently, to ride up a 1:4 slope at just 4 mph I need to produce something like 450 W. Should I give up now?

U.

At first, I didn't realise that the speed units they use are metres/second. I've changed my values but the watts required are still enormous. Stepped on the scales this morning and lost another lb - thank f*** for that!!!!!!!

DaveyL

popette wrote:

hi,
not sure which of these is the approach used in the FWC
http://www.climbbybike.com/climb.asp?Co ... ainID=7382
http://www.climbbybike.com/climb.asp?Co ... ainID=7381
The analyticcycing site listed earlier in the thread is freaking me out. :shock: :shock: :shock:

It's the western approach, from Brotherilkeld, that the FWC uses. That's the side I've attempted. Like a lot of UK climbs, the gradient info on that website is a bit misleading for Hardknott. Anyone who's ridden the Bealach-na-Ba climb from Tornapress and then looked at the profile on that website (or the salite.ch one) will not recognise the climb.

Average gradients can cover up a multitude of sins. As I remember it, Hardknott was basically three sections. The first kicked up to about 30% and in the end I couldn't turn the pedals and had to get off and walk. It then "levelled out" to what felt like about 12%, and then in front of you, you see the road kick left at a hairpin, and it looks like it's at about a 45 degree incline! I think that bit must be about 35%. I think it then eases off a bit towards the top, but have little memory of that last part...

Just from how the descent went, I'd say Wrynose from the east would be just as hard. Wrynose from the west is, dare I say it, trivial compared to Hardknott.

pedylan

DaveyL wrote:

Like a lot of UK climbs, the gradient info on that website is a bit misleading for Hardknott. Anyone who's ridden the Bealach-na-Ba climb from Tornapress and then looked at the profile on that website (or the salite.ch one) will not recognise the climb.

Much information when viewed from a desk can appear misleading. Getting out there and having a go will be the best guide. And before doing so have built a good level of base fitness and get the bike and gearing sorted.

The analyticcycling site is full of technical stuff I don't understand but it certainly could have scary messages.

What I'm unsure about is whether the power is input or output. If output then it is scary - it implies I can forget any slope with more than 15%. However if it's input then that's different altogether.

Brian B

Anyone who's ridden the Bealach-na-Ba climb from Tornapress and then looked at the profile on that website (or the salite.ch one) will not recognise the climb.


Yep - I would like to see the 3% section for 1k about 2/3rds of the way up. i have ridden it many times now and must have missed it in the excitement. I will look for this year as I am heading up there for an April bash

davelakers

Could give this one a go. Apparently its a good workout for the Fred.
Lakeland Loop

Ken Night

Back to the OP

Ride lots of steep hills, or do tough sessions on the turbo-to 95%

Here is my fave pic from the FWC site-inspirational

TechnoBuddhist

Nice pic, brings it all flooding back!!

Here's a profile from when I did the lake passes in 2005. Taken from my Polar HRM software. Wrynose and Hardknott(in that order I think). The slowest I went up was 5.5kph(3.5mph) and my Max HR blew up at 199.

Wrynose beat me cos I let my breathing get out of control which made my HR blow up at 199 and I stopped dead and had to walk to the top(you see the drop in speed and the drop in HR just before the top of peak 1.

For Hardknott I kept my breathing deep and slower(no quick panting), keeping my HR under control topping out at 186.

My tip for climbing is to control your breathing!! Big deep, controlled breaths.



Here's Honister, Newlands, Whinlatter and some others that I forget(or have blocked out ).



I think I've got these routes in Tacx format if anybody wants to try it on their turbo! Altho I think it would cheat cos Tacx only goes up to 25% gradient(I think).

One of the problems I remember having is losing traction on my rear wheel now and again! Getting the right balance point with just enough weight over the back wheel(but not too much) so that you can still be in position to pull on the bars. If you stop on one of these 30%, it's nigh on impossible to get back on and continue riding uphill.

Tom Butcher

Hardknott really does need to be seen to be appreciated. It starts steep so no chance to go into it easy - then I'm told it levels off quite a bit but you wont notice - then the top section is almost impossibly hard - if you drive down it you can't see the road in front because it drops away so sharply. If you really want to ride it without putting a foot down I'd suggest doing it in thirds and only focus on each third at a time - taking the bottom section as easily as you can - if you can get up that then the middle section should be possible - and then just give it everything at the top ramp and hope it's enough. In the past I've just attacked it from the bottom and blown about half way up - I didn't have such low gears as you but I wasn't anywhere near getting up it - psychologically you can see it all winding away up the mountain and it's very easy for your head to just go.

Ken Night

TechnoBuddhist wrote:

Nice pic, brings it all flooding back!!

It was nice last year to see groups of people spectating on Hardknott, and at a few other places on the course-mostly placed to watch the max amount of suffering

Back to the OP

I meant short bursts of near maximal effort on the turbo....doing intervals of say 30secs

much better to climb lots of steep hills though as has already been suggested

We have a few in Devon , here is Widdicombe, which is one to be savoured

il_principe

cervelorider wrote:

urban_winter wrote:

I'm signed up for the Frank Whitton challenge. My aim is simply to finish and not to walk. I'll be riding a compact chainset - so lowest gear will be 34x27. I am moderately fit but heavy (93kg) and not good at hills. I live in Wimbledon so I'm a bit short of long 1:4 hills on which to practice.

What kind of specific training is going to help me to get up the hills?

My thoughts so far:
- lots of hill repeats on smaller hills
- build leg strength by climbing in much higher gears than usual
- lose as much weight as possible before the event

Ideas?

U.

A few miles SW of wimbledon, between Dorking and Guildford is some good terrain to prepare you for this kind of event. Not quite 1:4 but pretty close.
I would say that a regular weekly ride into these hills for some 2-3hr sessions should at least make you feel more confident about the challenge ahead.
Anything you can do to bring you weight down will make climbing hills easier.
Hills that come to mind..................
The road to Coldharbour from Dorking,
All the roads up to Ranmore Common,
Barhatch Lane
Coombe Bottom (road from Shere to East Clandon)

There's more but hopefully someone else will know their names.
Hope this helps.

Arggh I'l second that! Whats the road that goes up past the recycling depot called? I misread the Garmin the other day and whizzed down it thinking, weeee this is a fun long hill. Got to the bottom and realised I should heve turned left at the top! Was not amused, but it's all good training... :P

TechnoBuddhist

Ken Night wrote:

TechnoBuddhist wrote:

Nice pic, brings it all flooding back!!

It was nice last year to see groups of people spectating on Hardknott, and at a few other places on the course-mostly placed to watch the max amount of suffering

I remember spectators on my day as well. The people coming down the hill in the car were gob smacked that we were going up. And at one point I caught up to a car and I wondered if I was gonna have to stop behind him. He pulled off to the left and I overtook him. Sweet!

Anonymous

Yes, i'd agree with afore mentioned advice....the Fred Whitton is to be taken so seriously,especially so early on in the year, theres not much things have me out in all weathers through the winter but youve simply got to do the training or you'll never finish.

As my bro said (Brian.B), have a drive up and look what awaits you at 100 pure murderous miles..., Hardknott West is so difficult its on the absolute border of madness, I've got a 34x27 compact as my training bike and I wouldn't even get up the 1st 50 yards on Hardknott...I require the Triple 30x27, and i swear I'm pedalling square and heaving myslef all over the place on this climb....I've climbed it a few times...once when me and bro were just back from a week climbing the legends of the Pyreness when we were peaking fitness..... and it near killed us both.

I've did many steep climbs, this one is way at the top of the tree with Bwlch Y Groes in North Wales....theres no other climb in the UK I know off which rivals these 2(Wrynose east is not far behind) I've did Park Rash and i agree its the toughest climb in the Dales, but its absolute miles behind hardknott....prepare yourself.

I don't know how fit you are, but to be honest I reckon you will have very little chance of scaling Hardknott/Wrynose at 100+miles with such gearing. Get the triple mate, you'll be dead chuffed you did on the day.

P.s In last years FWC I saw 3 people scale the beat without stopping/walking, me, my mate and this older fella with a touring bike and mudguards with touring gears...the other 50 odd were walking....thats the gospel.

Anonymous

Just to answer a few questions...Hardknott is approx 2kms long, it rise from 97meters to 397 meters...15% avg, As stated also, forget the average gradient here, just think of it as 2 walls, one at the start, one at the end, the middle bit is supposedly for recuperation, funny though as I had to get out my saddle a good few times on a 30x27 on this bit also.

John C.

I am often laughed at (mainly by my wife) but why not put a mountain bike cassette on the back of your bike, this would alow you to spin up the hills, you could also drop the 30 granny on the front down to 26. Yes you will be riding at the same speed as others are walking but at least you will be riding. This will bring confidence and in time as your fitness increases you will not need bottam gear. However leave it on for the FW as Hardknott on 100 miles will have most people pushing. How will you recognise me on the FW ? I'll be the one being laughed at on the start and the one riding on Hardknott