Good old Titanium! Strong as cardboard!
Comments
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Prompted by your posting, I've just gone over my turn of the century, very used and abused, Airborne Zeppilin with a fine tooth comb (not literally) and it's fine. Perhaps Taiwanise welding is less stressful in a tai chi sort of way.
Good luck with your claim
Titanium is supposed to be for life, not just for Christmas. In your case it nearly was!0 -
http://gallery.mac.com/permezel#100013
Shipped my frame in for repair.
It is apparently on its way back to me now, so I should have it soon....0 -
Ive got a Raleigh Special Products 531c which was made to measure and although it's stell that's going great after 16 years - you can keep your titanium!If only the legs were as good as the bike....0
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Kinda confirms my view of the worthlessness of Lifetime Warranties that some brands see to tote as the justification for their price and reputation. In my experience it's a marketing con to try and cover-up undeveloped or known product defects. £250 for a simple welding job - so they're profiting from their own incompetence too! If I was in the market for another top-quality Ti frame I'd look at a DeRosa, Passoni or Bertoletti.Make mine an Italian, with Campagnolo on the side..0
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I've only ever had one frame break on me and that was an old Raleigh steel frame, the rear fork and seat tube (where it joins the bottom bracket) all failed at the weld points. Raleigh got me a new frame without question - shame they don't make "serious" bikes anymore really
What do I ride? Now that's an Enigma!0 -
I've been thinking of Ti and have learnt a lot from this thread:
1. The company must be within sensible driving distance of home - not abroad. It doesn't matter if they get the frames made abroad I think as long as they can replace quickly.
2. The company's balance sheet must be OK (remember Omega?)
3. The warranty must be for full REPLACEMENT not repair if there is a defect
4. The warranty must be transferable to a new owner
5. The warranty must include help with replacement if it is a crash (eg 1/2 price)
6. There must not be any horror stories about the bikes as in this thread
Or am I being too exacting? It would be nice to know how quickly problems are dealt with. The outlay on these bikes is huge - and if Ti is not really a wonder material I would probably go for a cheap carbon model.0 -
I think you are being too exacting. The reason these Litespeeds have failed is due to a design fault, not due to the material. I've a 1999 De Rosa titanium frame and I've not had a single problem with it.normanp wrote:I've been thinking of Ti and have learnt a lot from this thread:
1. The company must be within sensible driving distance of home - not abroad. It doesn't matter if they get the frames made abroad I think as long as they can replace quickly.
2. The company's balance sheet must be OK (remember Omega?)
3. The warranty must be for full REPLACEMENT not repair if there is a defect
4. The warranty must be transferable to a new owner
5. The warranty must include help with replacement if it is a crash (eg 1/2 price)
6. There must not be any horror stories about the bikes as in this thread
Or am I being too exacting? It would be nice to know how quickly problems are dealt with. The outlay on these bikes is huge - and if Ti is not really a wonder material I would probably go for a cheap carbon model.
Personally I'd avoid any frame with a flared head tube, regardless of material, as I think the design is not one that will persist as the examples on this thread would seem to back up.0 -
Help with a discounted replacement after a crash is nice if the company offers it as a marketing incentive, but hardly something you should expect as a right. Try going to Ford after you have wrapped your Fiesta round a tree and asking for a half price replacement and see what they say.0
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The eternal dilemma - do you choose a metal frame, which on the plus side deforms plastically when overstressed, and strain hardens so dents and dings wont affect it, but on the downside willl fatigue especially if poorly designed, or rust if its steel; versus CF which wont deform plastically if you overstress it, and tends to fail catastrophically when it does go which could hurt a lot, but so long as its designed well then will never fail unless you ride into something hard, like the tarmac for example.
So resilient but not so endurable vs brittle and infinitely durable....either way I wouldn't ride a metal framed bike on a turbo and on the road as I would imagine that constraining the rear wheel sets up forces in the frame that were not envisaged and will probably cause it to fatigue at a faster rate. A CF frame is fine - if it was going to be harmful it will simply snap. Mine hasn't yet...0 -
well......now for an update
got my repaired litespeed 'ultimate' frame back on friday from the USA....
the good points :
1 - the replacement of the complete head tube looks fine, now has a non-integrated
style
2 - the frame has been completely repolished so the initial impressions are it
looks like a new frame.
the bad points.....
1 - now has completely wrong decals for the year, the new style decals are in colours
which clash with all my old finishing kit (original decals where black/white - new are
orange/black/white). Apparantly old 2005 decal sets are not available
2 - frame was returned missing fork and headset, so i'm now waiting for a new fork and
headset to be sent ! :?
I'm not sure if the new headtube has been faced & reamed ready to fit new headset, so
i will have to take frame to local bike shop for fitment.
maybe it's just me being picky, but I was assured the frame would look like new which it does, but unfortunately it no longer looks like the frame that I originally bought..
ah well, at least I have got it back
regards - UZ0 -
I am sorry to hear about the poor service and issues on this thread.
I have a Ti Litespeed Ghisallo with non-integrated head tube.
The Litespeed is close to perfection if very expensive.
I also have a Carbon Focus Exalto Extreme bought from the internet.
Despite the hype over carbon, this is similar in responsiveness - that is to say excellent, although nowhere near as smooth as the Ghisallo on bad surfaces.
However, the Focus is so much cheaper so a firm ride is an acceptable trade-off.
At the end of the day, both bikes offer a user experience that is almost identical in certain characteristics. Both bikes occupy the top end of what is available.
However, in terms of customer service when things go wrong with either material, I believe the role of dealer support is overlooked.
Legally in the UK it is not usually the manufacturer whose duty it is to put right problems.
The direct end-user relationship is what dealers are supposed to earn their margin for, otherwise what value are they adding - in this case - to the brand called Litespeed in return for collecting a premium for being the middleman.
Manufacturers have limited resource and tend to focus on dealer support, because this is the existing business model.
For example, if the repair is going to take 6 weeks, Litespeed relies on the dealer to keep alive the brand goodwill in some practical way. This is why a dealer can add value beyond simply taking your money to pay his rent.
My advice is to shop around and do homework on the dealer before buying, and ask how flexible they are prepared to be regarding in/out of warranty support.
If you get a nice price via an internet retailer like I did on the Focus, or buy from Ebay, expect that maybe the warranty will be strictly to the letter of the sale of goods act and nothing more.
Sometimes dealers get highly agitated if manufacturers seek a direct relationship with end-users because they are afraid to lose the sale.
However when there is a problem dealers sometimes would do well not to forget they already have the customers money in their till.0 -
I agree with your points DCJ
my problem was the dealer I bought my litespeed from couldn't give a flying fig about helping me out with my repair / replacement
the bike was about 14 months old and I had spent close to 4k with this dealer on kitting this bike out, however once they had your money any form of customer support went
out the window
when I took the frame back to show them the crack and to arrange to get them to send it to the litespeed UK importer they showed no real effort to help me get either a replacement or a repair.
I have had to do all the chasing to progress this problem - in fact when I recently phoned up they claimed they had been chasing my repair everyday for the last two weeks. When I spoke to the importer they said they had not had a call from this dealer in the last 2 months ..! !
when I went into the shop to try to find out what the hell was going on the shop owner seemed more concerned in getting his clothing stock sale sorted out than helping me to resolve my loss of bike. :evil:
as far as i'm concerned I will never set foot in that shop again - so in the long term their lack of customer focus has lost them business. I wish that in my own line of business I could afford to lose customers so easily. :shock:
regards - UZ0 -
...whereas if your dealer had bent over backwards and leant you a frame whilst yours was being repaired - or even a demo bike - you would be naming the dealer and saying what a good decision it was to buy Litespeed and how you will go back to the dealer when you need a new set of wheels etc.
Manufacturers have a dilema. In the premium sector especially, if their selected dealers don't behave 100% as a brand ambassador going forwards, then there will be extreme pressure to change the business model.
The internet exposes current practices. Manufacturers could sell direct at retail prices and spend the extra margin on demo days around the country and customer service directly aimed at the end-user.0 -
uncle zaskar - please keep us informed of your progress in getting this sorted.
I have two titanium ABG bikes with this integrated head tube detail - one being an '05 Litespeed Tuscany. Thankfully neither are displaying any signs of distress, but I do keep a beady eye on them!0 -
andyp wrote:
I think you are being too exacting. The reason these Litespeeds have failed is due to a design fault, not due to the material. I've a 1999 De Rosa titanium frame and I've not had a single problem with it.normanp wrote:I've been thinking of Ti and have learnt a lot from this thread:
1. The company must be within sensible driving distance of home - not abroad. It doesn't matter if they get the frames made abroad I think as long as they can replace quickly.
2. The company's balance sheet must be OK (remember Omega?)
3. The warranty must be for full REPLACEMENT not repair if there is a defect
4. The warranty must be transferable to a new owner
5. The warranty must include help with replacement if it is a crash (eg 1/2 price)
6. There must not be any horror stories about the bikes as in this thread
Or am I being too exacting? It would be nice to know how quickly problems are dealt with. The outlay on these bikes is huge - and if Ti is not really a wonder material I would probably go for a cheap carbon model.
Personally I'd avoid any frame with a flared head tube, regardless of material, as I think the design is not one that will persist as the examples on this thread would seem to back up.
I think it is fair to ask these questions - I've always liked the look of Litespeeds but I would rather take fewer risks by dealing direct with a UK manufacturer. I think the following look like good companies to deal with:
Sunday Bicycles: Ti great looks & nice frame features, good reviews, good prices, 1/2 price crash replacement, personal service, 'lifetime warranty', Macclesfield
Planet X: Carbon - good reputation, good prices, personal service, 2yr warranty, 1/2 price crash replacement, Doncaster
Enigma: Ti good reviews, good looks, Sussex, can't find warranty details, what are their customer relations like?
I would put the company first - even if this means a little compromise on the frame. It seems that these companies are very flexible on the spec.
PS The De Rosa repair thread is relevant to this too...0 -
normanp wrote:Enigma: Ti good reviews, good looks, Sussex, can't find warranty details, what are their customer relations like?
If I recall correctly, Enigma is the phoenix company that arise from the ashes of Omega. The Omega dissatisfaction thread was lengthy - plenty of people paying money and never even getting a bike. Very poor customer service, and consequently I wouldn't go anywhere near Enigma.0 -
What's this obsession with gold-plated warranties? You don't get this level of cover/service when you pay £20k for a car, so why do you expect it from a £1000 bike frame? As for dealing with UK companies - all the examples you've given are for frames made in Taiwan/China/Russia - these are all distribution/marketing companies who have virtually no influence on the quality of the product. As for liquidity of the company?? What are you going to do, check with Companies House and get their latest set of published accounts? The majority are purely trading companies with no stock, no assets, a little stock and a big overdraft. These warranties are costed into the price you pay and are a sad reflection of the litiginous obsession within society that expect it to be somebodys fault when $hit happens.Make mine an Italian, with Campagnolo on the side..0
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great post0 -
Monty Dog - there's a "De Rosa repair" thread going at the moment.
Knowing your love of all things Italian, be sure to offer your pearls of wisdom there....0 -
Captain Fagor wrote:If I recall correctly, Enigma is the phoenix company that arise from the ashes of Omega. The Omega dissatisfaction thread was lengthy - plenty of people paying money and never even getting a bike. Very poor customer service, and consequently I wouldn't go anywhere near Enigma.
The ownership and management of Enigma is completely different from Omega as far as I know. The Omega frame designer works for them as an employee however. I have an Enigma Esprit which I am very, very happy with and the customer service I have received both during and after purchase has been excellent. As the faults with Omega were management and customer service related and as far as I know Enigma has no connection with these it's a bit unfair to tar them with the same brush just because they are making use of existing expertise. They are a young British company producing amazing bikes. The frames are made in Taiwan to order but designed (to customised specs) and built in the UK.
I was told that the headtube on my (otherwise 3AL2.5V) Enigma frame is made out of 6AL4V titanium, presumably to prevent just this sort of failure.0 -
Monty Dog wrote:What's this obsession with gold-plated warranties? You don't get this level of cover/service when you pay £20k for a car, so why do you expect it from a £1000 bike frame? As for dealing with UK companies - all the examples you've given are for frames made in Taiwan/China/Russia - these are all distribution/marketing companies who have virtually no influence on the quality of the product. As for liquidity of the company?? What are you going to do, check with Companies House and get their latest set of published accounts? The majority are purely trading companies with no stock, no assets, a little stock and a big overdraft. These warranties are costed into the price you pay and are a sad reflection of the litiginous obsession within society that expect it to be somebodys fault when $hit happens.
I take the point Monty - that one can ask too much. However I am perfectly happy to pay for the warranty in the price. I can't concieve of paying £20k for a CAR (horrid things!) - the max I have ever paid is £7k for my L reg... Anyway I thought that with a new car you DO actually get this level of cover/service. I wonder how you would feel if a crack in a frame caused you to fall off an Alp? We are talking about critical safety matters here - not just missing a match on a TV that won't work!0 -
MontyDog, good post. Wen you buy a car you get a decent warranty. What you want is peace of mind. If frame breakage can be dismissed as "s*&t happening" then we all should consider hard bfore putting down inordinate sums on what is -effectively- a disposable item.
If trading companies really have little control of the products they are selling, then it bodes ill for all of us - most things these days are made in th far east under sub-contract, thus we can expect service to go to even further to hell.
I don't know what you do, but (for your sake) I hope you're not in customer service.0 -
Monty Dog wrote:What's this obsession with gold-plated warranties? You don't get this level of cover/service when you pay £20k for a car, so why do you expect it from a £1000 bike frame? As for dealing with UK companies - all the examples you've given are for frames made in Taiwan/China/Russia - these are all distribution/marketing companies who have virtually no influence on the quality of the product. As for liquidity of the company?? What are you going to do, check with Companies House and get their latest set of published accounts? The majority are purely trading companies with no stock, no assets, a little stock and a big overdraft. These warranties are costed into the price you pay and are a sad reflection of the litiginous obsession within society that expect it to be somebodys fault when $hit happens.
I think you do. And as a downtrodden beaten up supplier parts are warranted for at least as long as the car manufacturers'. No one in their right mind would part with £20k without some form of guarentee of performance in service, and some of us would reasonably expect a device costing a grand will be fot for its intended purpose for at least 12 months of use.0 -
I would not expect a warranty to pass to a new owner. I think that's unreasonable to the manufacturer who does not really want to cultivate a second-hand market. But if there is a design flaw that leads to premature failure then its not fit for purpose. I think actually a full refund could be claimed. When it comes to crash warranties it seems to be something brought by favourable market forces but as MD said you would never expect it from a car. 'Ooops. I crashed it due to my own wreckless driving - can I have another?'0
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Welding onto the radius right where the headtube gets thinner. Schoolboy engineering says that is a no no. Or it could be a contaminated weld (welding TI is easy, but you have to be clean). You're lucky to be alive. Sue them for emotional damage I say
I was kidding about suing themIts just a bike for ***** sake, not the space shuttle.0 -
If the warranty is in the price it should pass over - so that it continues for the time guaranteed. I have had dry rot treatment in my house that cost only £1000 yet its guarantee can be transferred to a new owner (for a small fee). As for 1/2 price crash replacement this just means that the company gives the replacement at cost price with no mark up - not a significant loss but a terrific advert for the company. I am not sure what 'lifetime guarantee' means though...richardjallen wrote:I would not expect a warranty to pass to a new owner. I think that's unreasonable to the manufacturer who does not really want to cultivate a second-hand market. But if there is a design flaw that leads to premature failure then its not fit for purpose. I think actually a full refund could be claimed. When it comes to crash warranties it seems to be something brought by favourable market forces but as MD said you would never expect it from a car. 'Ooops. I crashed it due to my own wreckless driving - can I have another?'0 -
normanp wrote:
If the warranty is in the price it should pass over - so that it continues for the time guaranteed. I have had dry rot treatment in my house that cost only £1000 yet its guarantee can be transferred to a new owner (for a small fee). As for 1/2 price crash replacement this just means that the company gives the replacement at cost price with no mark up - not a significant loss but a terrific advert for the company. I am not sure what 'lifetime guarantee' means though...
I'm sure the warranty is paid for in the sale price and its a great bonus as are crash replacements at cost price. The warranty might influence whether I purchase from A or B. This is where I think market forces have lead to quite attractive warranties. But I mean that I would not feel hard done by if they were not offered. Because warranties aside I talked to the DTI about an electrical item once but the rule may still apply. If the goods are not fit for the purpose of sale then you entitled to a refund whatever warranty or lack of warranty there is. Just don't accept anything else or you forfeit that right.0 -
Captain Fagor wrote:
If I recall correctly, Enigma is the phoenix company that arise from the ashes of Omega. The Omega dissatisfaction thread was lengthy - plenty of people paying money and never even getting a bike. Very poor customer service, and consequently I wouldn't go anywhere near Enigma.
I was one of the customers let down by Omega and saved by Enigma so I believe my comments on Enigma do have some value.
I can understand Captain Fagors caution regarding Enigma but in my opinion he is completely wrong.
I paid a deposit to Omega which I was going to loose. Enigma stepped in and honoured the order, I doubt thay made any money from this, quite likely a loss. They bent over backwards to finish my frame and I am very pleased with it. Enigma had no obligation to do this.
For whatever his reasons, Jim Walker did the honourable thing and helped out Omega customers like me. He could have kept quiet about employing Mr Reilly (from Omega) until the dust had settled and saved himself the cost and aggravation of being associated with Omega.
My apologies if this is a bit off topic but when I see Enigma getting bad press because they did the decent thing I feel the need to put things straight.
I would recommend Enigma without hesitation, do not tar them with the Omega brush.0 -
On the earlier question of customer service - well, yes - I was business and marketing manager for a UK manufacturer selling products worldwide and set up businesses in the US - that's why I'm highly sceptical about warranties. What was bizzare was that US customers were prepared to pay a premium for what they thought was a gold-plated warranty when many were a cover for poorly designed and made products. It took a while, but we managed to convince the market that better design and quality could be cheaper because customers weren't paying for warranty returns.Make mine an Italian, with Campagnolo on the side..0
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pieinthesky wrote:I was one of the customers let down by Omega and saved by Enigma so I believe my comments on Enigma do have some value.
I can understand Captain Fagors caution regarding Enigma but in my opinion he is completely wrong.
My apologies if this is a bit off topic but when I see Enigma getting bad press because they did the decent thing I feel the need to put things straight.
I would recommend Enigma without hesitation, do not tar them with the Omega brush.
pieinthesky - I'm glad to be corrected on that point. I wasn't aware that there were any happy endings in the Omega debacle, so it's good to hear your story. Fair play to JW and Enigma for sorting it out.
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