Good old Titanium! Strong as cardboard!

grimpeur

I was out riding my 2005 Litespeed Tuscany today when towards the
end of the ride I noticed a bit of a creaking from the front end. I couldn't put my
finger on it but when I got it home I had a closer look. What I found
was pretty shocking, the frame is cracked completely at the bottom of
the head-tube.

I can't work out how it happened as I don't recall hitting any massive
potholes. Even if I did I thought the idea of Titanium was that it was
basically indestructible.

What is currently giving me the fear is that yesterday I rode the bike
down a hill at 45mph. I am unbelievably lucky I noticed it when I did
and it failed on the flat.

So I guess I need to contact Litespeed to get a replacement under
warranty. Given this will probably take ages and I'm supposed to be
heading out to France at the end of the month. A new Cervelo frame
might be coming my way sooner than I had originally planned!

Some photos;

Monty Dog

Before I opened this post, I knew it was about Litespeed - plenty more 'happy' Litespeed owners on www.roadbikereview.com too! Guess it just goes to prove that lifetime warranties are a ruse by manufacturers to cover themselves for known product faults rather than just making a product that doesn't break.

andyp

That's bad - I wonder if the integrated headset has anything to do with it?

fast as fupp

good job you had the plastic frame protectors-probably all that was holding it together :shock:

american craftsmanship at its finest

Monty Dog

By the looks of it, the crack has propogated from the weld between the head and down tube - the extended integrated headtube won't help matters at all due to the additional 'bending' load. A stronger joint would result if the downtube joint was further down, but that would probably mean either a more complex downtube mitre cut, or internally machining a straight headtube - both would be more expensive. So it's nice to know that your £2k frame has been compromised for the sake of a few quid!

fenlandplodder

Everytime I look at these images, the crack looks worse than teh previous time. Absolutely appalling especially as the frame is not that old.

carlstone

To my eye the crack looks to have emanated from the heat affected zone in the weld. This is the area at the edge of the weld. This is where the tube metal has its structure changed by the heat in the welding process and makes it more brittle. This area of metal is actually not as strong as the weld itself. The design process should factor out this problem, but in this case obvously not.

Also the third picture shows a brown spot on the weld. Is this dirt or actually in the weld itself? If so it points to an impurity included in the weld and this would certainly weaken the joint in that area.

The tig welding looks OK but not fantastic, especially when as you say it is a £2000 frame.

uncle zaskar

guess what - just went and checked my 2005 ultimate frame and it's started to crack in exactly the same place as yours !. I bought the frame brand new about 15 months ago, only used for club runs in good weather + 2 cyclosportives

now got to dissasemble to get the frame back to the dealers that I bought it from ! - there goes my summer of riding

anybody know what the score is about replacement - do they have to replace like with like, as I dont think the ultimate is in their line-up any more, or can I ask for my money back ?

regards - UZ

grimpeur

UZ, that is really rather alarming! Looks like a design fault.

I contacted the bike shop where I purchased the frame from and they have kicked off the warranty procedure. Apparently the frame goes back to Litespeed UK after which it is sent on to Litespeed in the USA who assess whether it is to be replaced or repaired. The entire process can take anywhere between 1 - 6 months!!

In the mean time I'm going to buy a Cervelo and probably sell the Litespeed when I get the replacement frame. I don't think I'll be getting another Litespeed again.

Monty Dog

Sounds definitely like a design flaw. Reminds me of one of my first work experiences of designing welded fabricated structures and then testing them to destruction - through poor design, it is very easy to design potential stress-raisers into structures through using too-tight tube junctions where it's hard to guarantee effective weld penetration. Putting the structure on a test-rig to destruction showed up the weak points pretty quick. Because of the offset joint because of the extended headtube, then full weld-penetration at the apex of the joint is difficult - and from the results, leads to accelerated frame failure at the point of highest stress. Whilst this was acceptable for a naive engineering designer, it's not very acceptable from one of the suppossed market leaders. How such a design made it into production is surprising - any structural engineer worth his salt would have spotted that one a mile off. I expect Litespeed will find it hard to argue their case as they've probably seen plenty of failures before now - just hope they get you sorted out quick.

uncle zaskar

Hi Grimpeur - seems to be some sort of design / process flaw, as although the crack on mine is currently only 1cm long, it has propogated from exactly the same weld area as yours

whats really worrying me is I bought my 'ultimate' because i liked the carbon rearstays, and also it was a non-compact frame. I just had a quick look at the current litespeed range and cant see any non-compacts, and also they have dropped the carbon rearends.

I really dont want them to replace with some current frame as that is not what I originally purchased ?

i will keep you posted on this one, and if you can keep me up to date on your story that would be helpfull

regards - UZ

McBain_v1

That is an horrific series of pictures. Having just lashed out £3k on my Enigma bike I'm going to be checking weld areas very carefully from now on, but then I've heard nothing about weld problems with Enigma bikes, so perhaps this problem is confined to Litespeed frames.

Very lucky that you didn't have an off as a consequence of that crack. Update us about the replacement procedure if you can, it will be interesting to see how well you are dealt with as an aggrieved customer.

nutcp

When Ti first came along they all told us the silly prices could be justified on the basis that a Ti frame would the last you'd ever buy. Hmmm... could be true - but for very different reasons!

Do Ti frames really last longer? I very much doubt it. I've seen several cracked Ti frames of various makes. And, if they'll all last forever, where are all the old Ti frames. I only ever see new ones.

Tig welding bits of lathe-machined metal together seems rather agricultural in the age of composites. Why not carbon? because Ti lasts longer, perhaps?!!!

andyp

nutcp wrote:

Do Ti frames really last longer? I very much doubt it. I've seen several cracked Ti frames of various makes. And, if they'll all last forever, where are all the old Ti frames. I only ever see new ones.

I've a Ti De Rosa that I bought in 1999 that is still going strong. A friend has one which is slightly older.

Mine has a bare metal finish and, when spruced up, still looks as good as new.

cougie

My wife has an old Raleigh Ti frame with the Trimnell fork. Not done that many miles but its donkeys years old.

rafletcher

Not sure a design fault - more like a manufacturing fault resulting from failed/missed/incorrect post weld heat treatment - or maybe a problem with the gas shielding of the arc during welding. I've seen welds fail as a result of contamination introduced via the gas shield.

giant_man

grimpeur wrote:

I was out riding my 2005 Litespeed Tuscany today when towards the
end of the ride I noticed a bit of a creaking from the front end. I couldn't put my
finger on it but when I got it home I had a closer look. What I found
was pretty shocking, the frame is cracked completely at the bottom of
the head-tube.

I can't work out how it happened as I don't recall hitting any massive
potholes. Even if I did I thought the idea of Titanium was that it was
basically indestructible.

What is currently giving me the fear is that yesterday I rode the bike
down a hill at 45mph. I am unbelievably lucky I noticed it when I did
and it failed on the flat.

So I guess I need to contact Litespeed to get a replacement under
warranty. Given this will probably take ages and I'm supposed to be
heading out to France at the end of the month. A new Cervelo frame
might be coming my way sooner than I had originally planned!

Some photos;

Really sorry to hear that about your Litespeed grimpeur, I too thought titanium was indestructible. Hmmmm ......

richardjallen

Lightspeed seem to come out with new designs every season. I think short product cycles compromise quality. The amount of time going into design cannot be very large and they are not tried and tested in the field either. If a fault is found towards the end of the design/test cycle don't you think they will be pressed to meet their release dates? Something is always compromised.

I would be more comfortable with a manufacturer or model that had longer product cycles.

Skon

I was amazed to see the pictures because the crack is almost identical to one that my 2004 Vortex has. Like Grimpeur I noticed a clicking sound and when I got home - voila - a great big crack up the head tube. The bike has had no hard treatment and has not been raced. I only weigh 65kg, so it's obviously poorly made.

I was, of course, gutted. even more so when I noticed that the warranty is limited to original owner and I bought this 2nd hand.

So, it's off to Litespeed via Dooley's Cycles, to see if they'll repair it at a reasonable price. I suppose that legally they can (and probably will) charge me full wack, but given what has been revealed here, it looks as though Litespeeds fail more often than one might think, and therefore I would hope that they will take this into acount - not holding my breath though.

As the mechanic in the LBS said "litespeed - sh**espeed"

Now riding a lovely Kuota Kharma.

Cheers

Skon

pigman

Skon wrote:

I was, of course, gutted. even more so when I noticed that the warranty is limited to original owner and I bought this 2nd hand.

So, it's off to Litespeed via Dooley's Cycles, to see if they'll repair it at a reasonable price. I suppose that legally they can (and probably will) charge me full wack, but given what has been revealed here, it looks as though Litespeeds fail more often than one might think, and therefore I would hope that they will take this into acount - not holding my breath though.

don't give up yet. Years ago I had a specialised which broke. i'd bought this 2nd hand. I took it to the nearest specialised dealer (who wasn't my LBS) and went in pleading for help, told them it was 2nd hand and that I was desperate for their help. The guy in there said that he'd seen a few like that and that he would see what he could do. Weeks passed and he phoned to say he'd got me a replacement - it was a better spec model and included forks (I had kept the originals). Seein he'd done me afavour I bought a bit of kit off him there and then to go with the frame. still got that frame 10 years on.
The tip i'd say is to be honest, and ask for his help - humble yourself and then show your thanks.
good luck tho' your case and others is horrific. Wouldn't want to descend fleet moss into hawes with those bikes!
I was thinking about a new bike for next year and wondered whether it should be Tit or Steel. Can't stand carbon after having seen one break with the crack of a gunshot. Think my minds made up.
any one had problems with Van nicks Tit offerings?

ColinJ

pigman wrote:

good luck tho' your case and others is horrific. Wouldn't want to descend fleet moss into hawes with those bikes!

Aaargh - me neither! I did that descent on The Other Fleet Moss Randonnée last autumn and accidentally got 'big air' as I rode off the brow of the 25% ramp at over 80 kph. I was airborne long enough to worry about the landing but fortunately my steel-framed Basso was tough enough to take it. I don't fancy putting it to the test again though... :shock:

wildmoustache

the "last forever" line is a complete myth. Though the problem in this case looks like a manufacturing fault specifc to that frame rather than a weakness of Ti per se.

All metals fatigue. Eventually Ti will go crack. Might take a long though, and if it's well made you'll have had years of use out of it and be ready for another frame.

woody-som

pigman wrote:

Skon wrote:

I
any one had problems with Van nicks Tit offerings?

I have a year old VN, no problems with it, very nice ride. Anyway the frames comes with a lifetime warranty, so even if it does break, you can get a replacement, or if you smash it you can buy a new one for half price.

pliptrot

Skon,

what do you think of the Kuota? I'm thinking of getting a shiny new toy, and the KOM has caught my eye. This is not, of course, a good reason to buy a bike, but with all the indestructible frames out there destructing, what is?

Skon

I like it a lot. I got it 2nd hand so its a couple years old, but looks and handles great. Nice and stiff, but comfy too. In fact I like it just as much as my pre-crack Vortex. It's not the lightest out there, but that doesn't matter at all to me. I'd recommend them.

cheers

Skon

tiny_matt

I bought a Specialized S-Works Roubaix (carbon) 2nd hand in 2006, had a small problem with the gear adjustment barrel where it was bonded to the frame and took it back to my Spesh LBS, they sent it back to Spesh UK and i had a new S-Works 2007 frame within a week. Lifetime guarantee on Specialized frames which is the reason why i also went for the Transition instead of the Planet-X TT bike even though i reckon the Planet-X is a better bike.

grimpeur

Well I just ordered a Cervelo R3-SL today to replace the Litespeed.

Goodbye Titanium, hello Carbon.

angrynortherner

Since I bought my Trek Madone I've been worried about it failing at some point as it's carbon and have been lusting after replacing it with a Litespeed Siena, reading this thread has just saved me the hassle...

I love the look of the new Cervelo's but didn't they have a reputation of being prone to failure for a while (although having seen the abuse Cancellara dishes out on his I guess they must be strong).

A lot of the big US manufacturers offer lifetime guarantees and given how litigious the US is I guess they must be confident in theie products.

Captain Fagor

Jesus, those pictures are nasty!

Sorry to hear of the problems with your Litespeed, Grimpeur. The welding on my frame lokms a lot tidier than yours, but I'll still be checkig it from time to time.

The frame on my 2005 Litespeed Tuscany doesn't have the cracks yours does (yet!?) but I have had constant grief from the crappy Real Design Supersonic wheels which go out of true at the merest whiff of a bump in the road. The retailer (Fat Birds) doesn't seem to be williing or able to do anything with them, as they're put of warranty, despite having covered about 600 miles when the problem first appeared.

Intererested to hear that the Dooleys mechanic called them sh*tespeed. I'll be making enquiries the next time I am in the shop. I'd be interested to hear about the problems he has seen.

Hope you have better luck with the Cervelo!

kevin_stephens

I listened to a talk by Chris Hopkinson, first brit to complete the Race Across America. He was riding a Lightspeed Blade, which suffered a very similar failure to that shown in the pictures in the OP; replaced of course.

Nine Stone Cowboy

Titamium is fine as a frame material - Litespeeds are shite though.

NSC