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Nutriton and strength

PtrckzqPtrckzq Posts: 14
Alright to the point, I'm wondering if anyone can recommend me some books, sites, studies or just generally good sources of information on nutrition, timing and more.
I already eat a healthy diet, I'm more looking for knowledge on the subject, cycling (ie an endurance sport). Also with the off season starting and some gym work coming around, if anyone knows any good sources of information on balancing strength work and endurance training as well that would be great.
Thanks!
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Posts

  • imposter2.0imposter2.0 Posts: 11,001
    Sounds like you already have a reasonable nutrition regime going on - if you say you're eating a healthy diet, then that's pretty much all you need to do. Not sure what you mean by 'timing'. 'Strength' is a bit of a misnomer in cycling terms though, can you clarify what your objectives are?
  • diydiy Posts: 6,680
    Timing - I'm assuming relates to when you consume your nutrients, in order to get maximum benefit. There are lots of theories here from the most simple : carbs before, protein after, to more complex regimes where the food and exercise are specific to each other and adjusted for a weekly regime.

    In terms of winter gym training, unless you are a racer, I'd consider repairing the damage cycling does - strength training, flexibility and core strength. or you could do some interval training on a gym bike.
  • imposter2.0imposter2.0 Posts: 11,001
    damage..?
  • Imposter wrote:
    damage..?

    UV rays.
    I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles
  • fat daddyfat daddy Posts: 2,632
    Imposter wrote:
    damage..?

    UV rays.


    I was thinking more damage to the waist line from sitting in pub gardens and looking at my bike
  • fat daddy wrote:
    Imposter wrote:
    damage..?

    UV rays.


    I was thinking more damage to the waist line from sitting in pub gardens and looking at my bike

    Could also be the damage to the wallet after lusting over moar bike stuff
    I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles
  • fat daddyfat daddy Posts: 2,632
    Not forgetting damage to your home life because you spend too much time on the bike ... winter and Christmas is the perfect time to repair that damage, in time for spring and ignoring the family again
  • In terms of my goals, I already do core and stability based exercises a few times a week and am looking at including some low rep(3-5 rep) gym work to help improve my short term and max powers.
    As a sub 60kg rider, even though my w/kg is good I would really like simply having more power even if it meant comprising my w/kg a little. Some reading I did on this recently suggested that combining low rep weight lifting with endurance cycling lead to and increase in max and 40m powers as well as increasing muscle mass.
    And in terms of nutrition, I'd like to know about what and how to eat for strength training and for helping muscle hypertrophy. I already eat well around my riding but I've never done strenghth trainging before.
    So in short I'm looking for information to make an informed decision before my off season starts shortly.
  • pastryboypastryboy Posts: 1,385
    This could be of interest, free online course that includes nutrition and suchlike:

    https://www.futurelearn.com/courses/end ... erformance
  • Imposter wrote:
    damage..?
    Developing the physique of a T Rex...
  • reacherreacher Posts: 416
    just seems an odd thing to want to do, eating for strength training is virtually the opposite of how a cyclist would eat, also i cant see how developing this strength type physique is going to help you ride better. Its not exactly rocket science eating to get bigger and develop these types of build either depending on the type of physique your after can range from a quite complex diet to simply doing what most of the meat heads in gyms do which is eat enough food for two normal people and pump some weights.
  • Balancing strength training with endurance training is a difficult task, obviously for cycling you must priorities the endurance training but throwing in 2-3 strength training sessions will be good. Just add in some strength training with a good amount of rest in between sessions. If you have event coming up or want some real structure do some reading on periodisation for cycling. As for the nutrition sounds like your doing great already, timing isn't really a big deal in the grand scheme of things. 2000 calories is 2000 calorie no matter what time you eat it. Your body will do the rest in terms of timings, storing glycogen, fat stores, regulating blood glucose. So for the most part your in a good situation if your eating well.

    Best of luck!
    Alex R MSc
    https://alexreaderfitness.com/
  • webboowebboo Posts: 2,892
    Balancing strength training with endurance training is a difficult task, obviously for cycling you must priorities the endurance training but throwing in 2-3 strength training sessions will be good. Just add in some strength training with a good amount of rest in between sessions. If you have event coming up or want some real structure do some reading on periodisation for cycling. As for the nutrition sounds like your doing great already, timing isn't really a big deal in the grand scheme of things. 2000 calories is 2000 calorie no matter what time you eat it. Your body will do the rest in terms of timings, storing glycogen, fat stores, regulating blood glucose. So for the most part your in a good situation if your eating well.

    Best of luck!
    Alex R MSc
    https://alexreaderfitness.com/
    2 or 3 sessions a week. When do you then get time to ride your bike.
    This looks suspiciously like an advert for your coaching service.
  • imposter2.0imposter2.0 Posts: 11,001
    obviously for cycling you must priorities the endurance training but throwing in 2-3 strength training sessions will be good.

    How will it be 'good' ..??
  • Imposter wrote:
    obviously for cycling you must priorities the endurance training but throwing in 2-3 strength training sessions will be good.

    How will it be 'good' ..??

    Priorities
    I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles
  • reacherreacher Posts: 416
    Strength has very little to do with size in regards to athletic performance, if the aim is to look bigger and move mass in a gym then to some degree body weight counts on the bigger lifts like deadlifts and bench press but ask any of those big lumps in the weights room to perform a pistol squat, they won't be able to, size and strength training as such won't help you in an endurance sport. If anything it will have the opposite effect.
  • To get progression/results from strength training you need plenty of protein. 1.5g-2g per KG of body weight a day. I tend to refuel within half an hour then have a proper meal within 2 hours.

    The older you get the more protein you need. The body is less good at recovery/rebuilding for the older athlete.

    If you can balance the strength training with your cycle training you will benefit. Strong legs and core plus a good cardio system = strong cyclist.
  • imposter2.0imposter2.0 Posts: 11,001
    giphy.gif
  • MatthewfalleMatthewfalle Posts: 17,571
    Sub 60kg rider.

    How tall are you? What else do you do (sports, etc). What are your goals?
    Postby team47b » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:53 am

    De Sisti wrote:
    This is one of the silliest threads I've come across. :lol:

    Recognition at last Matthew, well done!, a justified honour :D
    smithy21 wrote:

    He's right you know.
  • reacherreacher Posts: 416
    To get progression/results from strength training you need plenty of protein. 1.5g-2g per KG of body weight a day. I tend to refuel within half an hour then have a proper meal within 2 hours.

    The older you get the more protein you need. The body is less good at recovery/rebuilding for the older athlete.

    If you can balance the strength training with your cycle training you will benefit. Strong legs and core plus a good cardio system = strong cyclist.
    Why would you want to get bigger if your a cyclist, just seems to be counter productive to me and to be fair to imposter and Alex I had this idea that leg strength made a differance, they spent a long time explaining it to me, the result being that i found it's not actually leg strength that makes you a good road cyclist. If anything I found that unless your carefull it can have the opposite effect and make you slower
  • OP why do you want to increase your max power? Unless you are a track sprinter, worrying about a few extra watts is not going to make much difference in all likelihood. At your weight, improving areas such as gross efficiency and utilisation of vo2 max will make more of a difference. As others have pointed out these are fitness issues not strength. Riding your bike more consistently and with some structured intensity is going to bring bigger improvements than a few gym sessions.
  • reacher wrote:
    To get progression/results from strength training you need plenty of protein. 1.5g-2g per KG of body weight a day. I tend to refuel within half an hour then have a proper meal within 2 hours.

    The older you get the more protein you need. The body is less good at recovery/rebuilding for the older athlete.

    If you can balance the strength training with your cycle training you will benefit. Strong legs and core plus a good cardio system = strong cyclist.

    Why would you want to get bigger if your a cyclist, just seems to be counter productive to me and to be fair to imposter and Alex I had this idea that leg strength made a differance, they spent a long time explaining it to me, the result being that i found it's not actually leg strength that makes you a good road cyclist. If anything I found that unless your carefull it can have the opposite effect and make you slower
    For me it's not about getting bigger I'm just trying to make my puny legs stronger. If you read Joe Friels training bible and his Fast after 50 book he explains how you lose muscle as you get older. Strength training can stall the muscle loss. I'm trying to fight against the ravages of ageing with strength training as well as VO2 max sessions. All part of a rounded exercise programme.
  • reacherreacher Posts: 416
    reacher wrote:
    To get progression/results from strength training you need plenty of protein. 1.5g-2g per KG of body weight a day. I tend to refuel within half an hour then have a proper meal within 2 hours.

    The older you get the more protein you need. The body is less good at recovery/rebuilding for the older athlete.

    If you can balance the strength training with your cycle training you will benefit. Strong legs and core plus a good cardio system = strong cyclist.

    Why would you want to get bigger if your a cyclist, just seems to be counter productive to me and to be fair to imposter and Alex I had this idea that leg strength made a differance, they spent a long time explaining it to me, the result being that i found it's not actually leg strength that makes you a good road cyclist. If anything I found that unless your carefull it can have the opposite effect and make you slower
    For me it's not about getting bigger I'm just trying to make my puny legs stronger. If you read Joe Friels training bible and his Fast after 50 book he explains how you lose muscle as you get older. Strength training can stall the muscle loss. I'm trying to fight against the ravages of ageing with strength training as well as VO2 max sessions. All part of a rounded exercise programme.

    Indeed it does, what i found though was its two seperate issues, leg strength in the gym does not seem to equate to better performance on the bike, as i said for me it had the opposite effect somewhat, in that i started to lose that feeling of floating on the pedals when climbing, it became too much like a grinding sort of pedal stroke, effective as far as using bigger gears to push over smaller hills seated, but not what i wanted for sustained standing climbing
  • ryan_w-2ryan_w-2 Posts: 1,160
    Being big is sh!t.

    Just work on your endurance and mix up your training with 20 min efforts, seated sprints etc.

    I can boast about 240kg+ squats, high max power figures and a 1,283w 20” effort, however, in the grand scheme of things, I’m still a mediocre Cat4 purely because I weigh 88kg. At that weight I need an FTP north of 400w to be any good, and as hard as I try, losing muscle mass is proving rather difficult.
    '17 Focus Mares Force 1 --- '19 Cervélo S5 Disc Di2

    IG: RhinosWorkshop - Check it out for all my custom builds...
  • reacher wrote:
    reacher wrote:
    To get progression/results from strength training you need plenty of protein. 1.5g-2g per KG of body weight a day. I tend to refuel within half an hour then have a proper meal within 2 hours.

    The older you get the more protein you need. The body is less good at recovery/rebuilding for the older athlete.

    If you can balance the strength training with your cycle training you will benefit. Strong legs and core plus a good cardio system = strong cyclist.

    Why would you want to get bigger if your a cyclist, just seems to be counter productive to me and to be fair to imposter and Alex I had this idea that leg strength made a differance, they spent a long time explaining it to me, the result being that i found it's not actually leg strength that makes you a good road cyclist. If anything I found that unless your carefull it can have the opposite effect and make you slower
    For me it's not about getting bigger I'm just trying to make my puny legs stronger. If you read Joe Friels training bible and his Fast after 50 book he explains how you lose muscle as you get older. Strength training can stall the muscle loss. I'm trying to fight against the ravages of ageing with strength training as well as VO2 max sessions. All part of a rounded exercise programme.

    Indeed it does, what i found though was its two seperate issues, leg strength in the gym does not seem to equate to better performance on the bike, as i said for me it had the opposite effect somewhat, in that i started to lose that feeling of floating on the pedals when climbing, it became too much like a grinding sort of pedal stroke, effective as far as using bigger gears to push over smaller hills seated, but not what i wanted for sustained standing climbing
    Well done for changing your mind on this after your earlier conviction about weight training. It's all too easy to let confirmation bias block your eyes/ears to helpful advice, especially when the advice might seem counter-intuitive at first glance.

    I still regret now that my ignorant intuition that my youthful skinny legs meant that I'd not have been a competitive cyclist (and so never tried club riding when I was super-fit). I look at some of the young beanstalks who are winning all sorts of races now, and I realise what I missed out on.
  • I think you guys are mistaking strength training for body building. It's not about getting big. Strong legs do benefit your cycling but I'm not talking about squatting twice your body weight. In fact I'd be happy if I could squat 1 X body weight. Cycling is mainly CV but some strength in the legs helps.
  • imposter2.0imposter2.0 Posts: 11,001
    I think you guys are mistaking strength training for body building. It's not about getting big. Strong legs do benefit your cycling but I'm not talking about squatting twice your body weight. In fact I'd be happy if I could squat 1 X body weight. Cycling is mainly CV but some strength in the legs helps.

    Obviously if you didn't have any 'strength in the legs', you wouldn't be able to stand up or walk around. The point is, the vast majority of human beings (whether existing cyclists or not) already have sufficient strength in their legs to enable them to cycle at a high level. What they may lack is the aerobic fitness to repeatedly turn the pedals. The actual 'strength' demand in terms of pedalling is very low to the point that almost anyone could do it.

    It's quite possible that you are misunderstanding the meaning of 'strength' in this respect. But in terms of the relevant definition, and assuming you are generally healthy, able and with normal motor function, your leg strength itself will not be a limiter.
  • For me I think it's a limiter, although for others it probably isn't. For instance when I'm doing intervals on the turbo at a specific wattage I can spin an easyish gear at 110 rpm. Notch it up a gear and I can turn the pedals at 100 rpm for the same power but my heart rate is lower. So having stronger legs enables me to take a bit of the stress off my CV system. I'm not talking about inefficiently low cadences just slightly harder gears which I struggle to push with puny legs. Now this is not a benefit in training as you want to load up your CV system in training but in a break in a road race it can make the difference between staying away and blowing up/getting swallowed by the pack.
  • imposter2.0imposter2.0 Posts: 11,001
    For me I think it's a limiter, although for others it probably isn't. For instance when I'm doing intervals on the turbo at a specific wattage I can spin an easyish gear at 110 rpm. Notch it up a gear and I can turn the pedals at 100 rpm for the same power but my heart rate is lower. So having stronger legs enables me to take a bit of the stress off my CV system. I'm not talking about inefficiently low cadences just slightly harder gears which I struggle to push with puny legs. Now this is not a benefit in training as you want to load up your CV system in training but in a break in a road race it can make the difference between staying away and blowing up/getting swallowed by the pack.

    That is not a strength issue and it is not what is limiting you. What is limiting you is your fitness. Have a read of this thread - http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtop ... t=12796394 - there are many others like it on here. But they all cover what is basically the same fundamental misunderstanding.
  • joe2008joe2008 Posts: 1,919
    Lifted from that thread, and sums it up...

    "You don't need much muscle mass or strength for a single turn of the cranks.....you do need a lot of fitness to supply oxygen to the muscle to keep it turning though"
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