Don't ever talk to a catholic about religion

Fantastic Mr Fox · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Big Red S

But it's the same form of faith, is it not? It's an irrational belief in something because for whatever reason you believe it to be true without seeing evidence.

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But, its not a belief as such. I think he's just open to the idea that there could be a higher being.

<hr noshade size="1"><center>I'd rather not.</center>

bobmcstuff · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Fantastic Mr Fox

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Big Red S

But it's the same form of faith, is it not? It's an irrational belief in something because for whatever reason you believe it to be true without seeing evidence.

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But, its not a belief as such. I think he's just open to the idea that there could be a higher being.

<hr noshade size="1"><center>I'd rather not.</center>
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Agreed, I'd like to here why it is irrational to believe several independantly investigated lines of evidence and thousands of scientists and just as irrational to believe a badly translated book of indeterminate origins (as 360 put it).

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Red Lemon · May 2007

I don't think he's trying to say that it's irrational to believe the words of scientists, but for the vast majority of people, it's a case of "you have absolutely no understanding of the processes they used to determine the age of the universe, so you have to take what they say on faith", in the exact same way that religious people have faith in their sciptures. Unfortunately, A levels are little use in this regard. They're simplified to the point of fallacy in many areas.

Why do people put faith in science though? Look at the things it's given us: nuclear weapons, chemical weapons, biological weapons, CFCs, the ability to destroy our environment, the ability to kill each other from thousands of miles away, endless drugs that barely work but have horrible side effects. Google Josef Mengele if you want to see what happens when science gets put in the hands of an extremist.

Science hardly has a blemish-free record when it comes to falsification of records, especially in the life sciences. Take that Korean guy who pretended to have done a lot of work in genetics that he hadn't. Practicallly a god in Korea, with is work little more than lies. Or look at the pharmaceutical companies: as soon as commercialism comes into play, scientific objectivity goes out the window. People have this view of scientists as being cold, dispassionate truth seekers. Nothing is further from the truth though. You have to have a degree of passion for your work, or you'd just say fuck it and give up when things weren't working. Why would a scientist falsify records? You need to publish papers to stay alive as a scientist. If your work has fallen on hard times and you need just one last result before you can publish a paper, the temptation to just make up that one last result would be pretty intense.

nirveous · May 2007

I think Science concerning the age of the Universe/Earth is quite like a faith, as it essentially based on a theory (isotopes etc, I don't know that much about it). It has more physical evidence that Creationism, but not by much, and that is a much stronger belief, if you think about how long most religions have been going, and the story/ideas have hardly changed, whereas the science behind isotopes has been around for no more than 200 years (probably less, no idea when it was widely accepted).
Still, I don't see why religion and science can't be compatible (God made the Big Bang, that sort of thing).

Mike Skinner · May 2007

Personally my solution is something along the lines of Buddhism or Natural Paganism.

I don't believe there is an involved god in the world, as all the religions that teach that god created and cares for us are filled with far too many contrasting stories to make any sense. However I would not even know where to start disproving an uninvolved god that was basically just an energy or karma source.

I honestly can't see how the Gods of the 'religions of the books; (Christianity, Islam etc) can be as they are taught to be, and yet the world and its inhabitants can be as they currently are. That some pretty un-caring Gods

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bobmcstuff · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Red Lemon

I don't think he's trying to say that it's irrational to believe the words of scientists, but for the vast majority of people, it's a case of "you have absolutely no understanding of the processes they used to determine the age of the universe, so you have to take what they say on faith", in the exact same way that religious people have faith in their sciptures. Unfortunately, A levels are little use in this regard. They're simplified to the point of fallacy in many areas.

Why do people put faith in science though? Look at the things it's given us: nuclear weapons, chemical weapons, biological weapons, CFCs, the ability to destroy our environment, the ability to kill each other from thousands of miles away, endless drugs that barely work but have horrible side effects. Google Josef Mengele if you want to see what happens when science gets put in the hands of an extremist.

Science hardly has a blemish-free record when it comes to falsification of records, especially in the life sciences. Take that Korean guy who pretended to have done a lot of work in genetics that he hadn't. Practicallly a god in Korea, with is work little more than lies. Or look at the pharmaceutical companies: as soon as commercialism comes into play, scientific objectivity goes out the window. People have this view of scientists as being cold, dispassionate truth seekers. Nothing is further from the truth though. You have to have a degree of passion for your work, or you'd just say fuck it and give up when things weren't working. Why would a scientist falsify records? You need to publish papers to stay alive as a scientist. If your work has fallen on hard times and you need just one last result before you can publish a paper, the temptation to just make up that one last result would be pretty intense.
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Just because something is bad doesn't make it untrue. Anyway, most of those things have only a passing conection with how the Earth is dated. Religion hasn't exactly done that much good either - Jihad, the Crusades, conflict in the Middle East etc.

It's also a pretty big jump between saying that it would be easy to falsify one or two results into saying that the whole scientific community has comprehensively faked all the evidence that the Earth is old.

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whyamihere · May 2007

Kitty: Ok, I can't be bothered reading through all of the last 5 pages, but I'm Catholic, anyone want to sum up what's gone on?

bobmcstuff · May 2007

Not much really. We quickly divulged from a thing about annoying religious people by questioning their beliefs to a debate about faith and science, and whether science requires the same sort of faith as religion.

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Mike Skinner · May 2007

FAO kitty/Catholics.

please appologise for your faith.

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ride_whenever · May 2007

It doesn't actually matter either way, the universe is an unrepeatable experiment, much like evolution. There is evidence, but one cannot make repeated trials of the universe being created. I cannot remember the terms for the types of scientific method but that is the gist of it. IMO god is an intellectual cop out, you can question and probe and attempt to understand our surroundings or you can just throw up your hands and say god.

Also Heisenberg uncertainty really shouldn't be used as evidence either way in this debate, it is just a mathematical quirk that QM kicks out. I can elaborate if you really want but it is a very tedious proof.

My Scott

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bobmcstuff · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ride_whenever

It doesn't actually matter either way, the universe is an unrepeatable experiment, much like evolution. There is evidence, but one cannot make repeated trials of the universe being created. I cannot remember the terms for the types of scientific method but that is the gist of it. IMO god is an intellectual cop out, you can question and probe and attempt to understand our surroundings or you can just throw up your hands and say god.

Also Heisenberg uncertainty really shouldn't be used as evidence either way in this debate, it is just a mathematical quirk that QM kicks out. I can elaborate if you really want but it is a very tedious proof.

My Scott

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Meh. I wasn't really using it as a proof, I just thought it was interesting. I can't remember where I heard it now either.

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Red Lemon · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by bobmcstuff
Just because something is bad doesn't make it untrue. Anyway, most of those things have only a passing conection with how the Earth is dated. Religion hasn't exactly done that much good either - Jihad, the Crusades, conflict in the Middle East etc.

It's also a pretty big jump between saying that it would be easy to falsify one or two results into saying that the whole scientific community has comprehensively faked all the evidence that the Earth is old.
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I'm not questioning the validity of the evidence for the age of the world, or saying anything was faked. I'm just pointing out that science and scientists aren't infallable, and explaining why a scientist might fake a result. I'm only questioning those who treat science as some kind of saviour of mankind.

I knew you would highlight my point for me, by giving examples of some of the evils that have been done in the name of religion. See, after figuring out that religion has been used as an excuse for all manner of skull-duggery, people with minimal scientific training then turn to science and place their faith in it.

But how is a faith in science any better for the vast majority of people? Firstly, most people are taking everything they're told about science entirely on trust. Sound familiar to religion? Secondly, if these people don't like the damage that has been done because of religion, why are they happy to put their faith in science, when it's given us a long list of nasties?

That said, if people want to worship science, it's fine with me. A chemistry PhD will afford me demi-god status.

Mike Skinner · May 2007

faith in science is no better, but almost constantly through human history mankind has faith in some saviour, previously it has been an unknown diety as we did not have the knowledge to provie different, now we do we have taken science on as the new 'guardian of the world'.

Sooner or later it will be repleced by something even more infallable, which inevitable, will infact be fallable.

We just like having something to protect us from ourselves, when all it is really doing is giving us peace of mind.

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Red Lemon · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mike Skinner

FAO kitty/Catholics.

please appologise for your faith.
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haw haw...pwnt.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ride_whenever
IMO god is an intellectual cop out, you can question and probe and attempt to understand our surroundings or you can just throw up your hands and say god.
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It can be used as a cop-out and certainly the catholic church (there they are again) hindered scientific progress for a long time, but for a Christian scientist, scientific investigation can be a way of unravelling and understanding the way God chose to set things up.

37714 · May 2007

Based upon what has been said here, I think a summary description of the arguments would be that previously, people have used religion to explain the unknown, and now in modern society, people use science to explain the unknown.

In either case, it's a matter of faith, as unless you physically speak to God, or conduct the experiments yourself, there is no way of knowing the truth.

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Mike Skinner · May 2007

i forget which scientist said it, but it was something along the lines of:

I've spent my life trying to find God in life by looking closer and closer, I've now reached the smallest part, and God appears to have slipped through my fingers, so i must start over.

While the quote isn't as well put as it was originally, I think it is a really nice thought. However close you look you won't find God, but that doesn't mean he/it isn't there

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ride_whenever · May 2007

Science might have given a long line of nasties but has done far more for human kind than religion ever will do before the second coming. See polymers, sanitisation, healthcare, agriculture etc.

I'm not sure how science cannot be the saviour of mankind, i mean what else can possibly provide any real solution to our impending issues?

My biggest gyp with religion comes from sin, why should a homosexual hate themselves for being who they are? I cannot accept that as a correct and moral way to live.

My Scott

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Mike Skinner · May 2007

how can science be our savior when it is also our destructor?

without science we would have no pollution (forest fires and cow dung excluded), far lower populations, so less food concerns, less international diseases, no mining of the ground and on and on and ariston

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37714 · May 2007

In the same way a life raft will save you at sea, but not if it's dropped on your from ten thousand feet.

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Mike Skinner · May 2007

nice metaphor

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ride_whenever · May 2007

I wouldn't say science is our destructor, we have destroyed ourselves, science has just made us better at it. I think it is very naive to place the burden of our own destructive psyche at the feet of science, people naturally want more and more things, we could never stagnate, we will constantly strive to better ourselves, mainly be destroying everything around us.

My Scott

My Single Speed

Always remember to pick your Uni according to the local trails or you'll be stuck with nowhere to ride for three years!

Mike Skinner · May 2007

science has given us the means to create far more damage than we could in an uneducated society. Clearly you cannot blame science directly for that, as it isn't a conscious thing, but our application of science, and directly related from that, our own ethics are to blame.

Which interestingly are in contrast with the ethics taught by religion, so maybe we would have been better off remaining religious, even if that meant we were to remain slaves (to God and the Church)

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Red Lemon · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ride_whenever

I wouldn't say science is our destructor, we have destroyed ourselves, science has just made us better at it.
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That's exactly the problem. You say science is going to save us from our impending issues, but the only reason we've been able to create those issues is because of science. Science has advanced so much faster than human society, and we're only just waking up to the consequences of our actions. Looking back at it, the people of the mid 20th century probably weren't ready as a society to responsibly use the technology they had at the time. We're still not ready now.

bobmcstuff · May 2007

Even though religion has caused things such as holy wars and discrimination?

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Red Lemon · May 2007

The point I've been working towards is that science in the hands of the irresponsible or the evil is just as bad as religion in the hands of a nutter.

Used responsibly, they are both fantastically powerful forces for good. Used irresponsibly, they both cause devastating destruction.

Mike Skinner · May 2007

Religion generally teaches acceptance, and helping they neighbour, the discrimination often comes from bad interpretation

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Fantastic Mr Fox · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by whyamihere

Kitty: Ok, I can't be bothered reading through all of the last 5 pages, but I'm Catholic, anyone want to sum up what's gone on?
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Your a woman? Why the hell would you want to be Catholic? Did you know that there are no women in the Catholic hierarchy? Its a sexist religion. As most of them are.

Sort it out.

PS, Catholics also condemn condom use! So, if you have had sex with Whyamihere, or dislike aids again, why the hell are you Catholic?

<hr noshade size="1"><center>I'd rather not.</center>

Fantastic Mr Fox · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mike Skinner

how can science be our savior when it is also our destructor?

without science we would have no pollution (forest fires and cow dung excluded), far lower populations, so less food concerns, less international diseases, no mining of the ground and on and on and ariston

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<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

So, the human race wouldn't have advanced at all. How is that a good thing?

You think the world would be better without the advances we have made? Both in science and in politics? We all be living in mud huts, killing each other with spears and dieing of tooth ache.

The good thing about science is, is that it doesn't discriminate against anyone. Its not man made, it just is. Religion, is man made and actively discriminates against millions of people.

<hr noshade size="1"><center>I'd rather not.</center>

hazzahulme · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Fantastic Mr Fox

PS, Catholics also condone condom use! So, if you have had sex with Whyamihere, or dislike aids again, why the hell are you Catholic?
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Do you mean 'condemn' rather than 'condone'?

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Oldmacdonald

hazzahulme - Official second best font-of-all-knowledge 2007.
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Red Lemon · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Fantastic Mr Fox
The good thing about science is, is that it doesn't discriminate against anyone. Its not man made, it just is.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Yes it is. Nature isn't man-made, but science is.

Don't ever talk to a catholic about religion

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